Who knows about the Skaven?

[woodster17]

Now this is something i've been considering for a week or so as I'm looking to write a couple of short stories with the Skaven involved. Now, I can't quite recall whether it's heretical for anyone in The Empire to own a copy of Leiber's Loathsome Ratmen like Kless's Liber Chaotica is meant to be (and indeed any great works of Chaos) but I have been wondering which organisations know about the Skaven? How high up the change of command is the cut off point before the lower masses are told that they are simply Beastmen?

The fluff on this is seemingly quite confusing. Every time the Skaven appear in a BL novel/short story of piece of canon there seems to be a wide ranging reactions varying from 'don't be stupid, there's no such thing as ratmen' to 'we're aware of the issue but not many are'.

So the ignorance or denial of the Skaven's existence seems pretty much to be unanimously Empire based. Dwarves and Elves of course acknowledge them as do every other race I can think of. I don't know if the Skaven-denial extends to Bretonnia as much as The Empire but Tilea and Estalia have had wide ranging conflicts with the ratmen, Tilea in particular. But who in The Empire would be aware or allowed to be aware of their existence? I appreciate that it's not a quantifiable question and it would have to be an educated guess but any thoughts would be welcome. If we accept that Elector Counts and their immediate retinue/stategic and military advisors and higher army personal are in on the situation as well as the Emperor and important members of his court, who else is privy to the knowledge? The Temple of Sigmar priests and individual witch hunters? Sergeants in Imperial armies? Town watch captains? Or anyone you could think of...

[BigbyWolf]

I think it tends to change based on whomever is writing the article/ story. I don't think there is a specific limit purely to allow for changes. Therefore, if you are writing the stories yourself, it's up to you to decide who knows.

[RobC]

My interpretation is that, officially, skaven are just another type of beastman. Select authorities are aware of the truth (that the skaven control a vast empire beneath the Empire and beyond), and prefer to keep this a secret in order to maintain calm.

Let's face it: if you knew that there were thousands of bipedal rat-things living under your town, you'd panic, right?

[Denny]

Recent fluff suggests Skaven perform magical rituals that are deliberately used to cloud their enemies memories of Skaven activity (they don’t erase minds or anything, just sort of ‘nudge’ people in the direction of dismissing the events as the activities of beastmen/mutants/tricks of the light etc).

It’s left open whether these rituals actually work . . . but Skaven are known to use gutter runners to steal/erase physical evidence of their existence.

To answer the OP; select strong willed individuals I suppose, soilders who've seen too much to forget, the odd madman on the street who nobody believes . . .

[woodster17]

RobC- Yes that's my take on it. I was simply wondering if anyone knew who the select authorities were or if I would have to improvise.

Denny- Interesting. I get the impression that Empire citizens are stupid/gullible in equal measure anyway and it wouldn't take much for them to dismiss or forget evidence of the Skaven. They've been know to pass of evidence as clear as a Skaven's body as a fake without a seconds though, it wouldn't take much for the Skaven think tank to cover their tracks.

[stormblade]

I'm guessing templars of sigmar, an odd wizard of the light or gray order, some authority figures and a few town guards/rat catchers.

[steeledcascade]

Most members of the sewer watch tend to know of there existence from what I have read, Also I would imagine witch hunters would know as they have a vested interest in knowing about all things chaos. Skaven go to great lengths to keep there existence shrouded in secrecy from the empire as ignorance makes it easier for them to prosper.

[BigbyWolf]

Let's face it: if you knew that there were thousands of bipedal rat-things living under your town, you'd panic, right?

Clearly you've never been to Middlesborough.

[Warlord Gnashgrod]

there's one other group that knows about the Skaven that you guys have forgotten: those that are working with the Skaven. Or more accurately, being used by the Skaven.

Otherwise I would agree with what has been said already. Also, I agree that most try to deny this info even to themselves. I mean it's more than just an entire civilization of bipedal man-size rats living under your feet; It a civilization of SAPIENT man size bipedal rats living under your feet who want nothing more than to utterly destoy you. That could tend to be unnerving.

[ModernKiwi]

Don't forget teams of pesky adventurers ... and their dog.

[unwanted]

Damn meddling kids...

Willful denial or outright refusal amongst even those who know of Skaven's existence is the norm, although most Witch Hunters who're more than novices will know that something is up with Skaven, besides being hideous mutants. I assume that quite a few Grey Wizards will know, as they're often acting as freelance troubleshooters. The Sewer Jacks will know that there's something iffy and scary going on, but won't know the magnitude. And of course, there's a few secret societies and orders of men, women and others who know of the Skaven menace, and seek to oppose them, though doing so in the shadows is the norm. as someone else noted, the Skavens' pawns will know that the Skaven are there, smart and apparently useful, until the tables are turned, and the real master-slave relationship is revealed.

Also, most open-mouthed Skaven "Truthers" usually come to a bad end, wether it's over-zealous authorities, well-meaning relatives or the Skaven themselves that make it happen.

[TheDungen]

Oh most people know its just very few actually believe in it.

[Craze_b0i]

On page 28 of the skaven book it gives a pretty solid account of how well the secrecy spell works. Due to the spell-effect even soldiers and citizens who had fought the skaven army first-hand were convinced it was just mutants or beastmen. It says the spell convinces the majority of people and only the keenest minds see through it.

[TheDungen]

yet we have stories of skaven in taverns. as seen in Gilead's blood.

[unwanted]

On page 28 of the skaven book it gives a pretty solid account of how well the secrecy spell works. Due to the spell-effect even soldiers and citizens who had fought the skaven army first-hand were convinced it was just mutants or beastmen. It says the spell convinces the majority of people and only the keenest minds see through it.

It doesn't say that it's the spell, rather it's the subterfuge, misinformation and damage-control that kept even those who fought the Skaven from piecing together the true nature of the menace. The "veil of secrecy" mentioned is the determined effort of the Skaven Leadership to keep off the radar so to speak.

@TheDungen: Never read Gilead's Blood, but tales of Skaven are probably told in taverns alongside outrageous tales of erotic conquests, rumours concerning prominent members of society, and tall-tales of every kind. Like a mouth-to-mouth combination of all the tabloids, National Geographic and Weird Wierd World mixed together, with a sprinkling of MAD Magazine. No-one takes Tavern-talk seriously

[giant stegadon]

Yeah as others have said- on the non-Skaven side I think its a combo of not being able to tell a rat-man is different than a beast-man (books always mention the Beastmen are all sorts of beast looking creatures, not just goats & bulls) and not getting everyone in every single city freaked out there's tunnels under everything. On the Skaven side, the leadership doesn't want people knowing about them, I assume they think it gives them an edge.

My addition is that in Thanquol's Doom an Empire Wizard scries (or something) Skaven have plans for a Dwarf Hold and warns the poor little Dwarves. So there's at least one guy watching out, giving vague heads-up out there.

[grumbaki]

Tileans certainly believe in them, aye?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilea#T..._of_Miragliano

Look under the section "The Once-Mighty Principality of Miragliano"

[blackcherry]

I get the feeling that, in the empire at least, skaven are regarded in the same way western culture treats the supernatural or creatures like the yeti, with snorts of derision ("Of COURSE you saw a giant rat that walked on two legs and spoke to you Klaus. Now come have another drink...") and lots of half truths. The efforts of the leaderships of both nations are likely to want to keep it that way as well.

The old races who know and believe skaven exist? Well its just another of the many follys of man, that he refuses to see what is right in front (or beneath) of him. I don't think any race knows just how far the skaven empire spans though.

[BigbyWolf]

Isn't the whole "Skaven fool EVERYBODY" idea only from the latest army book?

[Lord Squidar]

I think the higher ups in the Empire know about them but hush it up to keep people happy. Sewer jacks and select witch hunters know about them, but who listens to a dude who wades through muck all day, and witch hunters... well they are just not right altogether, but I never said that!

Bretonia is portrayed as far more ignorant than the empire. 2nd ed WHFRP had certain parts of bretonia denying the existance of a bretonian king, nevermind the next village along down the forest.

The dwarfs have probably given up trying to convince people and shake their heads at the silly manlings, or perhaps are assisting with the "keep it secret" thing. Maybe they aren't so keen on letting the other races know half their empire has been eaten away at the roots but weedy creatures.