Skullcrushers of Khorne

[ElBeaver]

So they are finally totally official, and can be seen here

The visual impressions have already been discussed, but what about the statline? They have the same pointcost as Mournfang Cavalry, and the differences are (both rider and mount unless otherwise noted):

editing to correct some of the errors people have pointed out

M: -1
WS: +2
BS: who cares
S: +1/0 (ensorcelled weapons - also mean they have magic attacks)
T: +1 (due to new errata where you attack highest T of rider and mount)
W: -1
I: +3/0
A: +1/-2=-1
Ld: +1
Save: 1+ vs 2+ (with ironfists & heavy armour for a 16.67% points increase)

both causes fear
mournfang have D3 impact hits
skullcrushers reroll panic tests (only relevant if they break in combat)
skullcrushers are frenzied
skullscrushers have MR(1)

To sum up:
Skullcrushers have, even though they have 1 less wound, good surviveabiblity with their T5 and 1+ AS, not to forget MR(1). With a WS5 some models will even hit them on a 5+ (but rarely something you would want to charge into anyways), and most models hitting on 4+ compared to a good deal of elites hitting mournfang on 3+.

With a I5 the skullcrushers (not their mount though) will attack first in most cases (which works both offensively and defensively), or atleast simultaneously.

Skullcrushers hits most opponents on a 3+ and have S5 as opposed to the mournfangs S4 and can wound ethereals. The mourfang have D3 impact hit that does not have to roll to hit, and combined they have 1 more attack. Against ASF (pesky High Elves) this is a major advantage for the mournfang, and somewhat remedies their low I.

The frenzy of the Skullcrushers means one have to be very careful not to get re-directed. I do not believe fernzy applies to the juggernaut.

For the sake of argument we can pit 6 skullcrushers against 5 mournfang with the ironfist+heavy armour upgrade, 360 points vs 350 points:
If the mournfang charges they do 5D3S4 impact hits ~7.5S5 vs T5 ~3.75W (before saves) ~1.25W (after saves)
Skullcrushers go first which is 6x3 WS5 S5 vs T4 and a 2+ AS ~ 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 unsaves wounds reducing mournfangs to 4 models and 1 wound. The rest of the attacks are simultaneous:
juggers: 6x2 WS5 S5 ~2.67 unsaved wounds
mournfang (including mount): 4x7 WS3 S4 hits vs T5 and 1+ AS ~ 14 hits, 4.67 wounds, 0.78 unsaved wounds.

After first round of combat the mournfangs are reduced to 3 (down by 2) models and the skullcrushers are down by a single model. Without the impact hit the Mournfang will be on the loosing side of a grind.

As someone mentioned against a speedbump of swordmasters the mournfang would get out on top, but lesson here is not to charge Skullcrushers into elven elites - they are just plain nasty!

[theunwantedbeing]

Since when did Juggernaughts get toughness 5?

Also, where are people getting the points costs from?

They do look pretty nasty though.
But they're not a lot different to regular chaos knights to be honest, barring the boosted toughness given they're twice as wide and pump out basically the same number of attacks.

[ElBeaver]

Since when did Juggernaughts get toughness 5?

Also, where are people getting the points costs from?

They do look pretty nasty though.
But they're not a lot different to regular chaos knights to be honest, barring the boosted toughness given they're twice as wide and pump out basically the same number of attacks.

Since GW gave them T5?

Point costs are in the newest edition of WD

And yeah they are twice as wide as a regular chaos knight, but also twice as many wounds. So less killy in comparison to unit width, but alot more staying power.

[Gary wyper]

Stupid broken if thats the points cost

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[Daniel36]

I would take skullcrushers over Mournfang any day of the week. Did i miss something?

Only the fact that they are not in the same army.

If you like them, field them. If you don't like them, don't field them. Seriously, people care too much about stat lines and points cost. Takes the enjoyment out of the game, when all you can do is be ticked off on how UP/OP they are.

[theunwantedbeing]

Seriously, people care too much about stat lines and points cost.

There is nothing wrong with being annoyed that GW isn't bothering to keep a uniform set of statlines for Juggernaughts across releases

[ElBeaver]

Only the fact that they are not in the same army.

If you like them, field them. If you don't like them, don't field them. Seriously, people care too much about stat lines and points cost. Takes the enjoyment out of the game, when all you can do is be ticked off on how UP/OP they are.

What's your problem? I did an objective analysis of the statline by comparing them to another monstrous cavalry whom many people think are very good for their points (there is already another thread discussing their look). This forum needs an ignore option...

[Snake1311]

M: +1
WS: +2
BS: who cares
S: +1/0 (ensorcelled weapons - also mean they have magic attacks)
T: +1 (due to new errata where you attack highest T of rider and mount)
W: -1
I: +3/0
A: +1/-2=-1
Ld: +1
Save: 1+ (in fact 0+) vs 4+ (can be upgraded to 3+ with ironfists)

both causes fear
mournfang have D3 impact hits
skullcrushers reroll panic tests (only relevant if they break in combat)
skullcrushers are frenzied
skullscrushers have MR(1)

The frenzy of the Skullcrushers does make them abit more unpredictable, but one would want to get them into combat ASAP anyways.

I would take skullcrushers over Mournfang any day of the week. Did i miss something?

Yeah, thats not quite right.

M is -1
And don't Juggers have frenzy themselves?

But yeah, you are missing a few points when evaluating them against each other:

D3 impact hits is the equivalent of 3 Jugger or 4 MF attacks (WS difference) - its a big deal.
Ironfist MF (the only type that get used!) have a 6+ parry.

The big drawback of Frenzy isn't that you might have to charge when you don't want to sometimes, but that you have to overrun. Meaning that, with some redirection, you will be facing nowehere and allowing opponents flank charges (and a 10+ man cav unit in the flank will have charge+flank+rank and maybe deal a wound = 3 or 4; 6 attacks from juggy sideways, 4 hits, 2 wounds after saves at best). Alternatively, if the opponents charge a disposable unit in your flank which is juuust tough enough for one Jugger not to kill it (goblin chariot for example), you then pursue sideways and face nothing in the next round.

Lastly, MF have the dragonhide banner, which shoots their effectiveness upwards by a fair bit.

[Ulthwe's Tears]

What is the base size of these? Chariot or Demigryph?

[DaemonReign]

They look.. good. Frenzy is a drawback but you get quite a lot for the Points..
Bothers me a Little that if it wasn't a 'brand new' kit they'd probably cost 5-10 more Points though..
Cost of command options are sorta breaking an unwritten rule though.. so that's gotta be factored into the net cost of any actual 'unit'.

edit
Demigryph bases.. I reckon it's the new 'general' MC base footprint.
... Not re-basing my horde of Bloodcrushers though.. *lol*

[ElBeaver]

Yeah, thats not quite right.

M is -1
And don't Juggers have frenzy themselves?

But yeah, you are missing a few points when evaluating them against each other:

D3 impact hits is the equivalent of 3 Jugger or 4 MF attacks (WS difference) - its a big deal.
Ironfist MF (the only type that get used!) have a 6+ parry.

The big drawback of Frenzy isn't that you might have to charge when you don't want to sometimes, but that you have to overrun. Meaning that, with some redirection, you will be facing nowehere and allowing opponents flank charges (and a 10+ man cav unit in the flank will have charge+flank+rank and maybe deal a wound = 3 or 4; 6 attacks from juggy sideways, 4 hits, 2 wounds after saves at best). Alternatively, if the opponents charge a disposable unit in your flank which is juuust tough enough for one Jugger not to kill it (goblin chariot for example), you then pursue sideways and face nothing in the next round.

Lastly, MF have the dragonhide banner, which shoots their effectiveness upwards by a fair bit.

You are so very right, that was one less movement for the skullcrushers.

Juggers do not have frenzy in the WoC book, but WD may have changed that for skullcrushers - haven't picked up a copy yet.

[Kalandros]

Save: 1+ (in fact 0+) vs 4+ (can be upgraded to 3+ with ironfists)

Sorry to break it to you but Mournfangs get 2+ armor save with ironfist because of heavy armor upgrade
Also for attacks, the Ogre has 3, the mournfang has 4. The Skullcrusher has 3 (mark of khorne) and the mount has 2 or 3 depending on if the Mark is applied to the mount or not.

Mournfang Mount, 5+
Ironfist 4+
Heavy Armour 2+

It'd be foolish not to go for 2+ armor save @ 70 pts per model

4 Crushers vs 7 Swordmasters missile:
14 WS6 S5 attacks vs 1+ armor save (not counting the "0+" since it has to come from the Eye of the Gods table to be possible) -> 2 unsaved wounds, one dead right off the bat against a speed bump.
Then of course the 7 swordies all die happily ever after by suffering about 11 or 12 unsaved wounds x;

forced to overrun! gets flanked by the horde of white lions

3 Mournfangs vs 7 Swordmasters missile:
?? WS6 S5 attacks vs 2+ armor save, 6+ parry -> impact hits most likely kill off the unit or almost

can choose to reform so they don't get flanked by the 30 white lions

So huh... Mournfangs please.

[redshylock]

The text said they get 50mm base but the photo looks like they are on 55x75mm base. Can anyone confirm what base they are on?
Bt in my opinionw the fact they got lances sort of made up for the lack of impact hit.

[Avian]

Four Skullcrushers are objectively better than five Khorne Knights for the same cost.

The only downside is that they are Rare, so if you want both a Hellcannon and a Warshrine in a 2400 pt army, you are limited to four of them.

[Odin]

There is nothing wrong with being annoyed that GW isn't bothering to keep a uniform set of statlines for Juggernaughts across releases

There's something very pointless about being annoyed by it.

The rules have changed with 8th edition, so monstrous cav is being brought in line. Not an issue, especially if (as rumoured) daemons will be along shortly.

As for the points - D3 impact hits per model is a pretty big deal.

[Kalandros]

The text said they get 50mm base but the photo looks like they are on 55x75mm base. Can anyone confirm what base they are on?
Bt in my opinionw the fact they got lances sort of made up for the lack of impact hit.

There's no 55x75 base.
Even if it measures 55mm, it counts as 50mm for gaming purposes.
but yea 50x75 is what it should be, like Demigryphs?

[N1AK]

Personally I'd take Mournfang over Skullcrushers. The speed, extra wound, parry and impact hits is worth so much; also frenzy is an extra hassle when playing against someone who can effectively exploit it.

What they are however is better than Chaos Knights. I've got 4 Juggernauts sitting upstairs that I always intended to make a unit of riders for big games but never got round to. Now they'll be an official unit I will certainly be bringing them to games

[Gradek]

What I am wondering is whether the T5 sticks. It is apparent from the battle report in White Dwarf that the old (use the Toughness of the rider) rule was in effect and thus that is what the Skullcrushers were designed for/costed for. With the new rule using the higher T for MC, the crushers are considerably better and I am somewhat wondering if the book puts juggers back to T4 because of this (I hope not).

[Kalandros]

What do you mean "puts juggers back to T4"? the statline given for the Skullcrushers is T5 Juggernauts, therefore they are T5. We use the mount's toughness now from the Errata. I'm not sure how you could play them any other way now?

[snyggejygge]

What do you mean "puts juggers back to T4"? the statline given for the Skullcrushers is T5 Juggernauts, therefore they are T5. We use the mount's toughness now from the Errata. I'm not sure how you could play them any other way now?

Guess he means when the book is released.
Personally I love Jugger Knights, been wanting it for ages, in fact I have some converted already which I used as Dragon Ogres, just need to rebase them & i'm fine.
However statwise I would use Mournfang over Jugger Knights, impact hits, better movement & no hassle with frenzy is better than better toughness.