Skullcrushers and Mark of Khorne

[venomx51]

For my money, just to add extra to this. I think that cavalry should not get it. The Rider is the patron of the god, he's frenzied, and he's riding a horse. the horse doesn't sacrifice peasants to Khorne, isn't marked as a favorite of a patron god. It's a horse.

However, Juggernaughts are different. They are demonic gifts from Khorne, and as such I think they should have the Frenzy rule, and I'll allow my chaos friends to play this way. But if they try to tell me their horses have been making dark pacts with a chaos god behind the stables...

[belgarath97]

That's usually how you know you're actually looking for the right answer and not simply trying to justify a prejudice. Hold on to that feeling; it will make you a better person.

I love that statement. And you are so right.

[belgarath97]

At p. 82 under SPLIT PROFILE it says 1) "Although a cavalry model has two sets of characteristics, one of the rider and one for the mount, it is treated in all respects as a single model..." - looking at the next page under MONSTROUS CAVALRY it states that 2) "All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry...".
Not to forget p. 82 it states that 3) "If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack.".
In WoC army book p. 110 The Mark of Khorne states: 4) "A model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to Frenzy", and for each option, ex. p 125 for CHAOS KNIGHTS "The unit may have a Mark of Chaos..." - ie. not the rider, the unit which must mean both rider and mount - supported further by rule 1), then I cannot make any other conclusion than both the rider and the mount have the Frenzy rule. The Errata on the "Banner of Rage" does nothing more than clarify that the Frenzy provided by this banner also applies to the mount if given to a cavalry unit.
I do not have the new WD yet, but it would make little sense that it would be any different for SC then CK with MoK.

Had it stated that the Mark of Khorne was applied only to the rider (as may or may not be in the case of characters), then rule 3) would come into play - unless it is a Manticore which can affect it's rider with Frenzy.

edit:

Links to both erratas for your convenience

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...Chaos_v1.5.pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...book_v1.6a.pdf

Ok so by this logic, and that fact that the Mark is factored into the profile, you would have no problem with the Juggernaught being 1 attack after the unit loses a round of combat. Right?

[belgarath97]

The strongest argument against the Mark affecting the unit is honestly the Skull Crusher Unit. A Juggernaut is listed the book as a mount option with 2 attacks. In this entry it does not have the Frenzy Rule and has 2 attacks. The Skull Crusher unit has a Juggernaut with 2 attacks, and it says it has the mark factored into the profile.

If this is the case, and the frenzy granted by the Mark of Khorne does affect the rider, then they should go to 1 attack if they lose a round of combat. However a Juggernaut by itself without a mark or frenzy is listed as 2 attacks.

There is a strong logical case that the Mark of Khorne affects the rider not the mount based on this evidence. But GW really needs to address this.

[logan054]

The Skull Crusher unit has a Juggernaut with 2 attacks, and it says it has the mark factored into the profile.

No it doesn't, it says Mark of Khorne, its says nothing about this being factored into the profile, frenzy (bar one unit) is never factored into the profile as the attack can be lost.

[Texhnolyze]

I would compare the bloodcrushers with a mother unit that had a similar ruling.

The blood knights have a the special rule frenzy listed in the unit entry, and its not listed under the riders but its listed the same way as mark of khorn, applying to the whole model. And yet this was FAQ to exclude the mounts from the extra attack.

It's the exact same situation for the bloodcrushers. The model receives frenzy, but only the riders are affected, because its they who are marked, and not the juggernaut.

[ElBeaver]

I would compare the bloodcrushers with a mother unit that had a similar ruling.

The blood knights have a the special rule frenzy listed in the unit entry, and its not listed under the riders but its listed the same way as mark of khorn, applying to the whole model. And yet this was FAQ to exclude the mounts from the extra attack.

It's the exact same situation for the bloodcrushers. The model receives frenzy, but only the riders are affected, because its they who are marked, and not the juggernaut.

Mark of Khorne applies to the entire unit, and for (monstrous) cavalry the rider and mount is considered a single model, hence they both get frenzy. Just because the Blood Knight mounts are excluded from getting an extra attack from frenzy, you cannot just apply that ruling to another unit - hence it is not the exact same situation.

[Last Edition]

Mark of Khorne applies to the entire unit, and for (monstrous) cavalry the rider and mount is considered a single model, hence they both get frenzy. Just because the Blood Knight mounts are excluded from getting an extra attack from frenzy, you cannot just apply that ruling to another unit - hence it is not the exact same situation.

Both Blood Knights and Skullcrushers (and all other (monstrous) cavalry) are considered a single model, so that is not an argument for frenzy on both elements on a cavalry model.

Mark of Khorne does NOT give the entire unit frenzy, that is Banner of Rage. Mark of Khorne only gives frenzy to a single model; like the normal frenzy special rule. The Juggernaut has it's own unit entry in the Warrior of Chaos book, which describes that it is not subject to frenzy - just like the Nightmare mount to Blood Knights.

So let see:
Blood Knights
1. A Blood Knight are considered as a single model.
2. Frenzy - single model subjected to frenzy.
3. Each element of the model has it's own entry which clearly shows which element of the model has the frenzy special rule.

Skullcrushers
1. A Skullcrusher are considered as a single model.
2. Mark of khorne - single model subjected to frenzy.
3. Each element of the model has it's own entry which clearly shows which element of the model has the frenzy special rule.

I refer you to page 82 in the BRB, Cavalry and special rules - bullet point 4.

Even without comparing them to Blood Knights, which you can in every way by the way, this rules query seems pretty clear to me. I don't see any argument for Juggernauts being affected by the extra attack special applied by frenzy.

[ElBeaver]

Both Blood Knights and Skullcrushers (and all other (monstrous) cavalry) are considered a single model, so that is not an argument for frenzy on both elements on a cavalry model.

Mark of Khorne does NOT give the entire unit frenzy, that is Banner of Rage. Mark of Khorne only gives frenzy to a single model; like the normal frenzy special rule. The Juggernaut has it's own unit entry in the Warrior of Chaos book, which describes that it is not subject to frenzy - just like the Nightmare mount to Blood Knights.

So let see:
Blood Knights
1. A Blood Knight are considered as a single model.
2. Frenzy - single model subjected to frenzy.
3. Each element of the model has it's own entry which clearly shows which element of the model has the frenzy special rule.

Skullcrushers
1. A Skullcrusher are considered as a single model.
2. Mark of khorne - single model subjected to frenzy.
3. Each element of the model has it's own entry which clearly shows which element of the model has the frenzy special rule.

I refer you to page 82 in the BRB, Cavalry and special rules - bullet point 4.

Even without comparing them to Blood Knights, which you can in every way by the way, this rules query seems pretty clear to me. I don't see any argument for Juggernauts being affected by the extra attack special applied by frenzy.

You actually manage to argue for frenzy to the Skullcrushers. Although you are right that the juggernaut does not have frenzy (It have never had), the Juggernaut that is part of the skullcrusher model does. As you say yourself, the rider and the mount is a single model. You buy the Mark of Khorne for the entire unit, as in "the unit may have a Mark of Chaos", and, I quote, "a model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to frenzy".
If a character is mounted on a juggernaut, or any other mount for that matter, then yes, it does not gain the extra attack rule from frenzy.

[logan054]

If a character is mounted on a juggernaut, or any other mount for that matter, then yes, it does not gain the extra attack rule from frenzy.

Huh, how did you figure that one? the wording is exactly the same for a character.

[Last Edition]

You actually manage to argue for frenzy to the Skullcrushers.

Indeed the Skullcrusher unit has frenzy ^^ I am arguing that both elements of the model are not subjected to extra attack special rule.

Although you are right that the juggernaut does not have frenzy (It have never had), the Juggernaut that is part of the skullcrusher model does. As you say yourself, the rider and the mount is a single model. You buy the Mark of Khorne for the entire unit, as in "the unit may have a Mark of Chaos", and, I quote, "a model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to frenzy".

Do not mix unit options and rules. The option is written that way because the mark has a set point cost and not individual point cost per model; neither is it an argument for extra attack for juggernauts. Single model argument has no merit because of the rules on page 82.

If a character is mounted on a juggernaut, or any other mount for that matter, then yes, it does not gain the extra attack rule from frenzy.

Rules wise, there is absolutely no difference to a character on a juggernaut and a skullcrusher model.

[logan054]

Indeed the Skullcrusher unit has frenzy ^^ I am arguing that both elements of the model are not subjected to extra attack special rule.

The rules they are you talking about are if only one part of the model has the frenzy rule, the MoK gives frenzy to the entire model, that is the difference so pointing out page numbers is pointless.

[Last Edition]

The rules they are you talking about are if only one part of the model has the frenzy rule, the MoK gives frenzy to the entire model, that is the difference so pointing out page numbers is pointless.

Which also the "normal" frenzy rule is applied to, the entire model. There is no difference to MoK's frenzy and normal frenzy.

[Texhnolyze]

The rules they are you talking about are if only one part of the model has the frenzy rule, the MoK gives frenzy to the entire model, that is the difference so pointing out page numbers is pointless.

The blood knights got frenzy on a model basis, the same way bloodcrushers do, there is really no difference between them other than the mark being the source of the frenzy special rule. Both units got the rule on a model basis, in neither of the entries does it say that frenzy only applies to the rider.

So even if frenzy applies to the whole model, the mount does not benefit from the extra attack special rule.

It's simple really, just as it is spelled out in the brb, the blood knights FAQ just confirms that it does not matter if the whole model got frenzy or just the rider. In either case the mount does not receive the extra attack.

[Xerkics]

I would compare the bloodcrushers with a mother unit that had a similar ruling.

The blood knights have a the special rule frenzy listed in the unit entry, and its not listed under the riders but its listed the same way as mark of khorn, applying to the whole model. And yet this was FAQ to exclude the mounts from the extra attack.

It's the exact same situation for the bloodcrushers. The model receives frenzy, but only the riders are affected, because its they who are marked, and not the juggernaut.

Sorry did you just say what i thought you said?Juggernauts Demons of Khorne arent allowed to benefit from the Mark Of Khorne? Really? I like how people are suggesting that only the rider is frenzied but the Juggernaut is some sort of hipster pony thats just there for the ride.
P.S: and you cant rely on BLood Knights as FAQs have shown as before that they have different rulings for same rules for different books as with whips in 40k for example otherwise we can claim same because of Rage Standard?

[Texhnolyze]

I'm sorry but have you read the entries for the juggernauts, or even bloodletters? Being a daemon of their patron does not automatically grant them the patrons mark. They already got their gods favor, and frenzy or a mark is not one of them.

So no, they do not benefit from the mark of their god, it does nothing for them.

[Xerkics]

I'm sorry but have you read the entries for the juggernauts, or even bloodletters? Being a daemon of their patron does not automatically grant them the patrons mark. They already got their gods favor, and frenzy or a mark is not one of them.

So no, they do not benefit from the mark of their god, it does nothing for them.

It doesnt ? they seem pretty frenzied to me

[logan054]

Which also the "normal" frenzy rule is applied to, the entire model. There is no difference to MoK's frenzy and normal frenzy.

Read the rule! what does it say? it says if one part of the model model has the frenzy rule, only one part gets the additional attack rule, its pretty simple.

[ElBeaver]

I'm sorry but have you read the entries for the juggernauts, or even bloodletters? Being a daemon of their patron does not automatically grant them the patrons mark. They already got their gods favor, and frenzy or a mark is not one of them.

So no, they do not benefit from the mark of their god, it does nothing for them.

Now you are just pulling it out of you a**.

[Xerkics]

I'm sorry but have you read the entries for the juggernauts, or even bloodletters? Being a daemon of their patron does not automatically grant them the patrons mark. They already got their gods favor, and frenzy or a mark is not one of them.

So no, they do not benefit from the mark of their god, it does nothing for them.

Honestly? Not recently no. And It doesnt ? they seem pretty frenzied to me