Are Flakk Missle a Fail?

[Chapters Unwritten]

I think that flakk isn't even necessary in the game, from what I've witnessed. The flyers are good but it is easy to make them overshoot their target, come down to the ground, and get merc'ed cold by tons of attacks while hovering. The vehicles that can't hover end up only really in the game for 2/3 of the turns, and only fire effectively for as little as half of that. I ignore them utterly, and so far it hasn't let me down; I take some rough volleys of fire but dealing with flyers defensively has served me well overall since their introduction. I think too many people are just obsessed with the idea that in 40k that all you can do is kill things. I am sometimes spoiled by our terrain and forget that other folks don't always have the same sort of stuff but with a good mix of terrain you can make it very annoying for a player using a flyer.

The idea that you absolutely lose all your AT before you get to shoot at the flyer is ridiculous. Heavy weapons can be hidden and step out to shoot a flyer.

[Xerkics]

1 - 2 nightscythe will struggle to kill 3-5 havocs in 1 turn they still get their 3+ saves. You woild have to be extremely lucky with tesla and marines extremely unlucky with 3+ saves im sure soneone can do the math. Also arent dakka jets like 150 points 2 of them are like 300 points . You always do well vs a lone unit when you gang up on it with lot more points. Also regardi g missiles 3-4? Arent you limited to shooting a max of 2 missiles per turn?

[Minsc]

1 - 2 nightscythe will struggle to kill 3-5 havocs in 1 turn they still get their 3+ saves.

It's hard to do the math on teslaweapons, but BS4 twinlinked is ~3,5 hits, + 1 Tesla = ~5,5 hits.
For simplicitys sake, let's assume that 2 Nightscythes get 11 hits, which leads to 9-10 wounds -> ~3 dead havocs.
With teslaweaponry, the two nightscythes may just as well get many more hits.

Also arent dakka jets like 150 points 2 of them are like 300 points

I'm not sure, but I think they're about 125-130 pts each with the normal upgrades included.
One Waaaghing Dakkajet will be 18 shots, 13,5 hits, 11,25 wounds, 3,75 ~4 dead havocs.

Also regardi g missiles 3-4? Arent you limited to shooting a max of 2 missiles per turn?

True, but the razorwing can also shoot it's lances and splinter cannon at the havoc's.
Either way, assuming one missile hit's, that's at least 2-3 casualties.

[duffybear1988]

They should have just been a free upgrade for all missile launchers.

[ehlijen]

What about Flying Monstrous creatures? Those aren't as fast as flyers and thus not nearly as likely to wipe the havocs out before they get to shoot, and missile launchers have to option to switch to kraks once it lands for armour save ignoring. Quad guns can't do that. If the FMC starts on the table, the quad gun won't even get to use interceptor.

[Minsc]

Most (but not all) Flying MC's have a 3+ armoursave and T6, which severely reduces the effectiveness of Flakk.
Assuming 4 Flakk fire against a FMC with T6 and a 3+ save, it's 2,66 hits, 1,77 wounds, 0,59 goes trough armour.

FMC's are imo not that scary, due to their habbit of crashing and taking a wound. I'd probably still go for 4x Autocannons + Quadgun, over 4x Flakk.

[ehlijen]

But Flakk missiles greatly enhance the odds of hitting and knocking it to the ground. And if it doesn't leap into the air/lands/got knocked down earlier, you have the option of krak missiles.

And quite a lot FMCs are only T5, I believe. (Harpies, deamon princes without nurgle, the named tzeentch greater deamon)

Flakk missiles are an additional option for a missile launcher. You're not supposed to want the package if you only want one of the three options.

What about 2 ML+flakk and 2 AC? That's a lot cheaper, can still threaten to knock a flyrant to the floor and still has about as good odds at taking out most ground vehicles as 4 ACs.

[Xerkics]

Fmc would go down to mass small arms fire and then you can kill them with whatever once they are grounded. Biggest issue i feel are av 12 flyers. Av12 is just too heavy for a flying vehicle

[Kaltenberg]

I think mostly that flak missiles are more or less failed.
Not becosue thier not good enough, that debateble as this tread shows.

But because the CSM codex HS section is stuffed with stuff that you sorely need.
In other words, the CSM codex are horrible on range outside the HS section. This makes the flak missile much much more expensive that their actaul point cost, becouse it takes up space in the HS department with you should use for something else.

[IcedCrow]

But because the CSM codex HS section is stuffed with stuff that you sorely need.

IMO that's how a codex SHOULD be written. Otherwise if you don't have a lot of viable choices inside of a slot (heavy, elite, whatever) then your players just take the one thing that is good and constantly ignore the rest. That is bad design in my opinion.

[Vaktathi]

The problem with that is you end up with stuff like the Nid codex, where they have a ton of critical capabilities stuff into one FoC slot and then they need to use it all on one aspect because one of them (largely AT) isn't available anywhere else and they miss out on using that slot for other options.

[Brotheroracle]

Or Necrons or Orks or Dark Eldar as they can get at least some fliers for 100-120pts.

It's pretty just the CSM's and BA/GK, Voidravens and Doomscythes that pay significant investments for flyers.

I don't know of a DE flyer under 145 points.

[Cthell]

1 Razorwing (or 1 Voidraven) easily kills of a squad of havocs in one turn, firing off 3-4 missiles, pew pew.

Flyers can only fire <2 missiles a turn

[Blinder]

Against FMC's I'd almost rather pour shots on it from small arms until it crashes and then go right for kraks, assuming I had something that was more threatened by the FMC than whatever else they'd shoot bolters at. If not though even just a pair are nice to force the test (the effectiveness of Flakk in this case being more about the fact that you have a significant chance to hit) and unlike the ACs have the aforementioned option of punching through a grounded 3+ FMC's save. Also, last I checked upgrading 4 havocs from ML to ML + Flakk uses less than half the points required to include a quad-gun. The Aegis is popular, but not everyone wants/needs one... so they're not really all *that* bad a deal if you already wanted the ML havocs.

In a wider sense, I think Flakks are probably "pretty good," but that GW does indeed have the "Air vs. AA" balance generally flipped from what a lot of people seem to expect (in that air air power is able to generally ignore active AA, or at least take care of it "up close and personal" where contemporary reality suggests that's a rather terrible plan... and even in a "WWI/II in SPAAAAACE" perspective the effectiveness of a lot of things feels "off." AV12 in particular is a problem, as is having a heavy flyer with a jink-level invuln save (helldrake should be an FMC, max AV11, or lose the save IMO... horses and gates, though...), but as LI points out taking AA options that in most cases have to soak up a round of fire before they can do anything really puts a damper on their usefulness *before* any concessions are made to the fact that they're supposedly able to shoot things nobody else can shoot well.

So, Flakks basically 'ok' though IMO they should have a flyer-only Interceptor... where GW seems to be taking flyers (vehicles, at least), not so 'ok.'

[Vaktathi]

I don't know of a DE flyer under 145 points.

Are they that expensive? I don't have my book on me, I thought the Razorwing was relatively cheap, or am I getting it confused with the Ravager as the sub 120pt option?

[BTJ]

Ravagers are 105pts. IIRC, thought the RW was 125 though

[IcedCrow]

The problem with that is you end up with stuff like the Nid codex, where they have a ton of critical capabilities stuff into one FoC slot and then they need to use it all on one aspect because one of them (largely AT) isn't available anywhere else and they miss out on using that slot for other options.

That's more of a problem with horrible codex writing. If you put all of the useful things into one slot then yes that's going to happen. The author of the tyranid codex is as renown for being a poor writer as Ward is for being an overpowered one.

Maybe the two should combine forces?

[AlphariusOmegon20]

That's more of a problem with horrible codex writing. If you put all of the useful things into one slot then yes that's going to happen. The author of the tyranid codex is as renown for being a poor writer as Ward is for being an overpowered one.

Maybe the two should combine forces?

God no, then we'd end up with a codex that has all the failings of the Tyranid units with the silly fluff of the GK. THAT would be a double slap in the face.

[wyvirn]

That's more of a problem with horrible codex writing. If you put all of the useful things into one slot then yes that's going to happen. The author of the tyranid codex is as renown for being a poor writer as Ward is for being an overpowered one.

Maybe the two should combine forces?

Wait, the guy who made the units that this thread is talking about (Vendetta/Valkarie) and literally set the 5th edition meta is a poor codex writer

[IcedCrow]

I can't think of a time I have ever heard or read a desire to have him do one's codex in the future so yeah I'm going to say he's a pretty poor codex writer.