Returning Player - Army Choice Advice Requested

[Midvalley]

Hello,

I'm posting this here in the hopes of getting some responses/discussion going. I played 40k many years ago (in the 3rd-4th edition range) and haven't really played (though have at times read this forum) since then. I'm looking at getting back into the game and am interested in getting help choosing an army. While I have no experience with the 6th edition rules, I have experience with wargaming in general and am willing to put in the time required to learn. I've looked through the forums, specifically the list of "killer lists" but it seems somewhat lacking in terms of gauging actual quality, rather than just specific people posting a specific list they've had trouble with.

So, here's what I'm looking for/underlying assumptions:

- Theme is cool, but a competitive list is more important
- Assume I'm starting with 0 models so an army that functions passably at small values that I can steadily grow into with more purchases would be good
- Only core rules/armies (that is no forgeworld rules, etc.), though I don't care how old a codex is if it is competitive
- Needing/using allies is fine with the caveat of the second point - I'd like to be able to have a functional list without allies that gets better once I can add them
- Likely to remain usable for the foreseeable future - it doesn't need to stay number 1, but I'd hate to collect something that is likely to be errata'd next month

Thanks in advance.

[Chacim]

Take a look at Necrons.

being able to put an HQ swinging a warsythe (I2 term killer) and holding a res orb gives you the ability to give your whole army FNP 4+ (effectively) and you get some really strong units. The Necron book came out just before the new edition and they are very shooty though you can tailor them into CC if that is your wish. I think they get a little of everything and have a really strong book. Highly recommend them.

[Heafstaag]

@the OP:
Are you fairly familiar with the 40k background? Are there any factions you like more than others, or any types of play styles from other wargames you like (fast moving, gun lines, close combat oriented, etc)?

[carlisimo]

Here's what not to pick:
- Craftworld Eldar - underpowered until they get a new codex (should come late this year)
- Tau - new codex in a couple of months, I'd wait for the new minis
- Sisters of Battle - received an underpowered 'temporary' White Dwarf mini codex and nothing else
- Black Templars - very outdated codex (from 3rd edition!)

Everything else is more or less acceptable. Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights are strong right now (I think).

[Midvalley]

@the OP:
Are you fairly familiar with the 40k background? Are there any factions you like more than others, or any types of play styles from other wargames you like (fast moving, gun lines, close combat oriented, etc)?

I'm familiar with the background of the setting (at least what it was in 3rd/4th so if there are any recent shifts in metaplot I don't know those). I don't especially have any fluff/flavor preferences - I can find something in just about every army to like and I don't think I need to play a particular army to enjoy its fluff. As for playstyles I have a mild preference for shooting things (especially since it seems to have received a relative buff this edition compared to assaulting) but am good with either fast moving or standing in one place to deliver that firepower. I'm sort of assuming I'll need to bring a fair amount of flier support regardless, which I'm certainly fine with doing.

[RandomThoughts]

Necrons, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard should all fit well with what you outlined.

All three are (currently) top tier armies, all three can do shooty very well, and all three have options for strong allies (mostly each other, I believe).

[malisteen]

Add space wolves to that 'crons/knights/guard' list. Wolves still have a lot of very strong options, some of the best core troops around, and some of the best duelists outside of special characters. Plus they have some of the most effective psykers and anti-psyker gear. They lack in fliers, but by the time you're playing large enough games where that will be an issue, you can ally in guard and use vendettas, which are still some of the best fliers around. Guard are their prefered ally thematically, as well. Wolves/guard are two great tastes that taste great together.

Add Daemons of Chaos to the 'do not start now' list. They're pretty strong at the moment, at least the tzeentch ones, but that's due to update rules that are hard to get, and more importantly they're due for a new book in the next month or three, so who knows that they'll look like then.

Dark Angels were just released, and they're a pretty good choice. Their book is versatile, allowing for a bunch of builds, and they've got a ton of fun and flavorful options and special rules. Their new fliers are kind of bad, but they can ally guard for vendettas, which should be good for another year or two, at least.

Chaos Marines just got a new book, but I don't really recommend it. They can put an effective army together, but their internal balance is very poor, with all sorts of obvious 'do take' or 'don't take' options restricting your ability to adapt in a competitive environment, and will limit their effectiveness in the long term. All they need is for some future book or update or meta shift to hard-counter the baledrake, and they'll be basically objectively worse versions of other better loyalist marine books, particularly space wolves. Just like their previous book, which had a strong build, until the meta shifted to mech and the lash just stopped mattering, leaving the army without its only unique & effective gimmick.


So in general-

Recommended: Necrons, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Dark Angels

Not Recommended: Tau, (regular) Eldar, Daemons of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines. Sisters, Templar [edit: also Tyranids]


Other options are all of the 'take it or leave it' variety. Dark Eldar have a new book and a great model range, but aren't especially competitive in 6th edition. Tyranids were really awkward and painful in 5th, and honestly still suffer from poor internal balance and need a new book, but... you know what, no buts. They don't hurt as much in 6th as in 5th maybe, but I still wouldn't recommend starting them right now. Space Marines are ok, but kind of outshone by the other specific marine varieties. Blood Angels likewise are ok, though their gimicks aren't quite as strong as those of Dangels, Wolves, or Knights. Orks are functional, but not stand out, and 6th encourages them to play in ways that don't necessarily feel the most natural or intuitive. Etc.

Basically, if you feel a strong attachment to the models or fluff of one of the leftover factions, then go for it, because there's no particular reason to hold off on them. If you feel a strong attachment to one of the 'not recommended' armies, don't necessarily play something else (starting one army when your heart's set on another is a sure fire way to blow half a grand and have nothing to show for it), but consider waiting another year or so to start 40k and seeing if the army you really wanted has been fixed up at all. If your heart's set on one of the recommended factions, then get to it, and if you really don't care, then just pick one of the recommended factions at random.

Once you have your faction selected and are ready to start, buy the codex & start reading, and google search a dedicated faction forum and familiarize yourself with the general consensus on which units in that faction to start with or avoid. Then buy some models and start painting.

[RandomThoughts]

Add space wolves to that 'crons/knights/guard' list. Wolves/guard are two great tastes that taste great together.

Wasn't sure whether Space Wolves where still considered top tier in the current "winter of flyers".

You make a convincing argument, though, so let me rephrase my initial reply:

Necrons, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves should all fit well with what you outlined.

All four are (currently) top tier armies, all three can do shooty very well, and all four have options for strong allies (mostly each other, I believe).

[ctuttle]

Recorded for fifth Ed but still pretty relevant ...

Might I suggest:

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1460

And

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1457

[budman]

as player who left in 2nd asnd came back in 6th
I picked up 1st Necrons & 2nd Grey Knights

I cannot say how just great necrons are to learn the game agian with... easy to learn, forgiving of small mistakes but with a learning level of all tricks they can do in 6th ed (they also have no psy powers so they have one less thing to worry about)
Grey Knights are a small froce of high pt cost guys, whom kick a lot of ass but get get swamped if your not carefull (GK's all of whom are psy powered badasses)

both make for good starter armys

[Midvalley]

First off, let me just say thanks for all of the advice. It's all extremely helpful and has given me a place to start (looking at models, reading what I can on the forums, etc.).

Hopefully it is easier to ask these follow-ups here, rather than in each of the army threads:

Necrons - I think I'm leaning this direction, but how crippling is the lack of psykers? Psychic powers (especially divination) seem extremely good this edition, but having great flyers and durable anything seems good anyway.

Space Wolves - I didn't play many psykers when I did play and with the boosts given to them, having an army that relies on psykers definitely has some novelty draw for me. How do they stand up as an option against GK? GK seem like the other option for "lots of psyker nonsense" which is why I'm comparing them.

IG - I'm not going to lie, I hate painting with a passion. As a result, if there are other options, I kind of shy away from IG just as a result of having to paint so many models. A gunship or two isn't a problem, but massive amounts of dudes with lasguns makes me sad to have to think about painting.

Dark Eldar - After the comment about their models, I looked, and yeah, they really do have awesome looking models. I have to say that it kind of sucks that they aren't competitive. Being a relatively competitive player myself that's a bit of a deal breaker, but if they didn't suck I'd probably play them for appearance (and fluff).

[budman]

First off, let me just say thanks for all of the advice. It's all extremely helpful and has given me a place to start (looking at models, reading what I can on the forums, etc.).

Hopefully it is easier to ask these follow-ups here, rather than in each of the army threads:

Necrons - I think I'm leaning this direction, but how crippling is the lack of psykers? Psychic powers (especially divination) seem extremely good this edition, but having great flyers and durable anything seems good anyway.

Space Wolves - I didn't play many psykers when I did play and with the boosts given to them, having an army that relies on psykers definitely has some novelty draw for me. How do they stand up as an option against GK? GK seem like the other option for "lots of psyker nonsense" which is why I'm comparing them.

Necrons - the lack of psykers... is so not crippling as we have a few units called crpteks who are the dirty tricks unit of the crons... and you can do things with them that make your opfor weep... how about a unit that teleports in fires a template and wounds on 2+ and has ap1 and gets back up when killed.

Yeah there is reason why Crons are Teir 1 army

Space Wolves - can run without psykers but the guys I play use the Rune guys every time they have some stunning powers Like Jaws of the world wolf ( the classic necron killer power)

Space Wolves VS GK Space Wolves are marrine army with a few very nice tricks and a real style to them Grey knights are made of awesome or cheese depending on your point of view
Grey Knights are the most over the top of power and of point cost marines
eg your basic Grey Knights assault marine is called an intercepters and can teleport 30 inches in one turn and all of them have ap3 force weapons with "Extra powers" the super unit called paladins 2wound terminators all with psyker powers that do a nasty large blast template…
Grey knights also have the inquisition units and they can be anything from lascannon monkeys to death-cultists who would make genestalers piss themselves in close combat.

But if you don’t want to do much painting the Grey Knights build called draigo-wing is the way to go 16 guys for 1000+ pts
note I have seen this type of army swamped by ork boys who beath them down with numbers alone

just my thoughts

[Midvalley]

Thanks for the info. I'm not so anti-painting that I'll only paint a few models, just enough to make large horde forces a bit of a daunting prospect. Psykers seem interesting, but I do like the idea of the necron force.

Regarding necron, is there a way to build into it that makes sense without just buying a ton of fliers at first? The downside being that fliers are very expensive (dollar-wise) so it's a hard place to start from. I'm a little sad that the lack of battle brothers means there's no effective way to add some psyker allies, so the psyker-less-ness is still the only thing keeping me on the fence I think.

[budman]

you want an army that works well "cheese and spam" a necron force with grey knight allies
all the goodness of cron shooting and flyers with a small number of hard as termys whom bring the psy give the gk's a psy ordo xenos hq for fluff and have fun...

[Aluinn]

...
Dark Eldar - After the comment about their models, I looked, and yeah, they really do have awesome looking models. I have to say that it kind of sucks that they aren't competitive. Being a relatively competitive player myself that's a bit of a deal breaker, but if they didn't suck I'd probably play them for appearance (and fluff).

If you love the models, there's really no reason not to collect DE. (Well, they have a somewhat steeper learning curve than other armies, but no good reason beyond that.) To some extent I would agree with the "not that competitive" comment, but this is when you start talking about the utter extremes of competition like trying to win Adepticon or something. For the purposes of games you're likely to find yourself playing 99% of the time (including local, small tournaments), they're perfectly fine, once you become familiar with how they work.

As a caveat, it is true that their internal balance isn't perfect, but this is the case for all the armies that people are recommending more highly--in fact, IG and Space Wolves have truly awful internal balance, with multiple units that I've literally never seen anyone take in a real game, and even Necrons have their obviously sub-par choices. It's pretty much a given in 40K that, whatever you play, your army's codex will contain competitively terrible units at any given time; which those may be changes with time, but in general it's been more or less a constant in my ~10 years of experience with the game.

So "competitiveness" assessments shouldn't and usually don't take internal balance into account. And given that, when you look at the best units that DE can field and their optimal configurations, they're pretty solid--you just have to use them carefully, as everything is fairly fragile with a very few exceptions, and they're prone to either winning big or losing big.

[Heafstaag]

I'm familiar with the background of the setting (at least what it was in 3rd/4th so if there are any recent shifts in metaplot I don't know those). I don't especially have any fluff/flavor preferences - I can find something in just about every army to like and I don't think I need to play a particular army to enjoy its fluff. As for playstyles I have a mild preference for shooting things (especially since it seems to have received a relative buff this edition compared to assaulting) but am good with either fast moving or standing in one place to deliver that firepower. I'm sort of assuming I'll need to bring a fair amount of flier support regardless, which I'm certainly fine with doing.

Well, I'm just getting back in myself, I only had short break, but it feels as if the whole game is different, and it is in some respects.

Based on what you've said I would recommend necrons, as they are very competitive, pretty easy to paint, can shoot and fight, and have very interesting units. I still think you should research more into the armies, especially the background, and play an army that you want to play, regardless of whether its top tier or not. As another poster said, if you start one army, but really want to play another you are going end up blowing money. Not that GW won't like that, but you might not. I made that mistake in fantasy AND 40k!

[Midvalley]

Based on what you've said I would recommend necrons, as they are very competitive, pretty easy to paint, can shoot and fight, and have very interesting units. I still think you should research more into the armies, especially the background, and play an army that you want to play, regardless of whether its top tier or not. As another poster said, if you start one army, but really want to play another you are going end up blowing money. Not that GW won't like that, but you might not. I made that mistake in fantasy AND 40k!

For me, enjoying playing an army tends to come from it being effective and competitive. I can read about/experience the fluff of an army without actually setting its models down on the tabletop, so I really am not worried that I'll end up choosing a mechanically sound army but liking another one more.

So "competitiveness" assessments shouldn't and usually don't take internal balance into account. And given that, when you look at the best units that DE can field and their optimal configurations, they're pretty solid--you just have to use them carefully, as everything is fairly fragile with a very few exceptions, and they're prone to either winning big or losing big.

I'm not so concerned with internal balance, for example I see few people suggesting that Flayed Ones are good, but what do you think makes DE sufficiently competitive? I've taken a look at their tactica thread and it seems like Reaver jetbike spam is the way to go, but how does that compare with the necron or GK lists? I'm fine with a steep learning curve, but I'm wondering what gives them the oomph to take home local matches compared to the other things people are suggesting here. Not that I'm in the space where I feel the need to win every game (even once I'm "experienced" with my army) but I do want to make sure I'm playing an army where, if my opponent sets down something "top tier" I'm not just auto-losing - not to say that DE are auto-losing, but that's my concern.

[Bartali]

Hello,

I'm posting this here in the hopes of getting some responses/discussion going. I played 40k many years ago (in the 3rd-4th edition range) and haven't really played (though have at times read this forum) since then. I'm looking at getting back into the game and am interested in getting help choosing an army. While I have no experience with the 6th edition rules, I have experience with wargaming in general and am willing to put in the time required to learn. I've looked through the forums, specifically the list of "killer lists" but it seems somewhat lacking in terms of gauging actual quality, rather than just specific people posting a specific list they've had trouble with.

So, here's what I'm looking for/underlying assumptions:

- Theme is cool, but a competitive list is more important
- Assume I'm starting with 0 models so an army that functions passably at small values that I can steadily grow into with more purchases would be good
- Only core rules/armies (that is no forgeworld rules, etc.), though I don't care how old a codex is if it is competitive
- Needing/using allies is fine with the caveat of the second point - I'd like to be able to have a functional list without allies that gets better once I can add them
- Likely to remain usable for the foreseeable future - it doesn't need to stay number 1, but I'd hate to collect something that is likely to be errata'd next month

Thanks in advance.

Hard to see beyond Imperial Guard with that description. Don't have to have allies, but can ally with pretty much anyone. Unlikely to have a new codex any time soon - Daemons, Tau, Eldar, Orks, Black Templar, Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are all in the queue before them.

[Denny]

What do you think makes DE sufficiently competitive?

Unit wise? IMO:

Dark Lance Ravagers with nightfields.
Venoms with 2 cannons and nightfields.
Reavers.
Eldar allies (for psychic defence and use of Doom; the re-rolls to wound stack well with all the poisoned shots).

They're still not sure top tier, but they can certainly hold their own against Necrons (unless the Necrons go all flyers, but that screws over most armies)

I've had mixed success with Grey Knights, but the games are always fun when you have a Farseer with Runes of Warding.

[malisteen]

Internal balance in 40k books in general isn't too good, and as a result, even some of the weaker armies can have functional builds. What they lack is versatility and adaptability needed to adjust to shifts in the environment. For instance, Chaos Marines have a decent list (nurgle bike lord, MSU plasmaplagues, bikes, 2xbaledrake, 2/1 havocs/nurgle oblits or vice versa, ADL, maybe some guard or daemon allies), but outside of the ally choices, they don't have a lot of other choices that are on a level with the rest of the default list, meaning they don't have a lot to work with if some future book, errata, or general shift in the meta invalidates plagues, baledrakes, or oblits.

I'm not as familiar with Dark Eldar, I know 6th edition hit them particularly hard, which is kind of sad and surprising given how recent their book is, but they likely still have a functional build or two, particularly if you take advantage of their eldar allies. If you decide you love the dark eldar models and style, by all means go for it. Just be aware that you'll want to do research on faction-specific forums to see what particular unit or units are or aren't favored before buying anything, and that whatever list you end up with might have difficulty adapting as other new books are released in the future.

The advice about researching which units are favored applies to all factions, though. Crons and Knights and Space wolves and Guard all also have dud units that you don't want to build armies around. They just have more good units, or the good units they have are that much stronger or more versatile. Even if you pick the cheesiest faction, if you then select your units haphazardly, or based purely on models or theme, then you're going to end up with a casual army, not something for srsbznz tournament play.