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Thread: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

  1. #1
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    Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    I have a hard time understanding how the sky ray works.

    It has a velocity tracker and 6 missiles. My understanding is that there is 2 way of firing the missile. Like a regular weapon or with a markerlight.

    So if I want to shot at a flyer, I can shoot them normally using the skyray BS with the velocity tracker. So in that case I can fire them all in one shot if the sky ray didn't move, or 1 at full bs and other in snapsot if the skyray moves.

    I can send them also from another unit using markerlight but in that case they won't benefit from the velocity tracker and so will be fire at bs1 (unless I use other markelight to up the bs).

    But what if the skyray use a markerlight to fire a missile? My understanding is it still use bs1 to send them as the seeker missile is not really a weapon fore by the skyray. Is it true?

    If so, it means that to be truly effective and really pose a threat to a flyer, it needs to have LOS and not move.

    Is my interpretation correct?

  2. #2

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    You are using some assumptions from the old codex there. Seeker missiles can no longer be called by units other than those that carry them; they always fire as part of the carrying unit's shooting now.

    The best way to fire at flyers with the skyray is to use its own networked markerlights to guide its own missiles, all of which uses its skyfire rule.


    edit: and yes, to be effective it needs to sit still. If it moves, it can fire at most one markerlight at full BS and use it to guide one seeker missile at full BS.
    Last edited by ehlijen; 16-04-2013 at 23:43.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Dang, you're right, hadn't notice you can only fire the missile you carry yourself.

  4. #4

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    That can happen. Noticing that rules are absent rather than being replaced is harder than reading the new versions.

    They lost in flexibility that way, but the new rules are a lot cleaner and being able to fire them without markerlights (plus the points drop) mean they're less of a costly risk to take now.
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  5. #5
    Chapter Master Cypher's Avatar
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Of course, you can use a markerlight to "buff" a Seeker Missile, which specifically fires as BS5.

    Now, which takes preference, the BS5 from the markerlight, or the BS1 for snapshots at fliers?
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  6. #6
    Chapter Master Charistoph's Avatar
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Of course, you can use a markerlight to "buff" a Seeker Missile, which specifically fires as BS5.

    Now, which takes preference, the BS5 from the markerlight, or the BS1 for snapshots at fliers?
    Depends on who's firing it, now doesn't it? Some things don't have to Snap Shot at Flyers...
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  7. #7

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    As per the rulebook faq, unless specified otherwise, the BS1 from 'Hard to Hit' that flyers and FMCs enjoy is applied last and therefore overrules all other modifiers.

    Skyfire and the markerlights BS increase abilities specifically override this, but the markerlights seeker missile launch ability does not, as far as I can tell.

    Unless the seeker carrier has skyfire or used markerlights to gain the 'Pinpoint' ability, seeker missiles hit flyers on BS1.
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  8. #8

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Well... I guess, the trick would be:

    Snapshot:
    - "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

    Seeker missile:
    - "Is resolved at Ballistic Skill 5."

    -> The BS of the model shooting the missile is changed from x to 1 for this shot.
    BUT the shot itself never checks the BS of the model. Its always resolved at BS5.
    The important part here is, that although the model does still have BS of 1 for this shot... it ignores the BS of the model and just resolves the shot at BS 5.

  9. #9

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Not how it works.

    Rulebook FAQ, third question:
    "Q:Can the BS1 of a snapshot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's shooting attack?
    A: No."

    It doesn't matter if the model has the BS1 or the weapon, the shooting attack's BS cannot be modified away from 1 without explicitly overriding that ruling (as the Pinpoint ability of the markerlight does, but the Seeker ability does not).
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  10. #10

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Velocity tracker on Skyray means all its shots, including seeker missiles, are at "normal" BS.

    I'm guessing that, combined with the Seeker ability, all markerlit Skyray shots are at BS5.

  11. #11

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Yes, Skyfire is one of the few rules that does explicitly remove the BS1 reduction from some snapfire instances. You just use whatever BS you'd use if it wasn't a snapshot.
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  12. #12

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by ehlijen View Post
    Not how it works.

    Rulebook FAQ, third question:
    "Q:Can the BS1 of a snapshot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's shooting attack?
    A: No."

    It doesn't matter if the model has the BS1 or the weapon, the shooting attack's BS cannot be modified away from 1 without explicitly overriding that ruling (as the Pinpoint ability of the markerlight does, but the Seeker ability does not).
    Nope, that FaQ has no meaning here.
    The BS5 of the seeker missile isnt a modification of the BS of the firer.

    The firer gets BS1, as normal for snapshots.
    Its just, that you use BS5 to resolve the missile shot.
    This shot ignores the BS of the firer. May it an unmodifiable 1 or not... that stat just isnt used at all.

  13. #13

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    The faq clearly applies to the BS of 'a model's shooting attack'. It doesn't matter if it's the BS of the firer or the weapon, if a model fires it, it's a model's shooting attack and thus it's BS cannot be changed from BS1 without express permission.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    The Faq doesn't mention the BS of the firer. Just the BS of the attack.
    Snapshot makes a Model shoot as if BS1. This cannot be modified by a special rule that modifies the BS of the attack. The rule on the missile modifies the BS of the attack. Not of the firer. It is the exact question that the FAQ addreses. To a k. Interestingly, if the missile modified the BS of the firer the FaQ would strictly not apply to it.

  15. #15

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Depulsor View Post
    Nope, that FaQ has no meaning here.
    The BS5 of the seeker missile isnt a modification of the BS of the firer.

    The firer gets BS1, as normal for snapshots.
    Its just, that you use BS5 to resolve the missile shot.
    This shot ignores the BS of the firer. May it an unmodifiable 1 or not... that stat just isnt used at all.
    Even if you could argue that the missile shoots itself, BRB still clearly states "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR)" BRB p.81

    And shooting Seekers through markelight token "Seeker" doesn't add Skyfire. So sorry, your seekers still hit with 6's without skyfire.

  16. #16

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by khidi View Post
    Even if you could argue that the missile shoots itself, BRB still clearly states "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire USR)" BRB p.81

    And shooting Seekers through markelight token "Seeker" doesn't add Skyfire. So sorry, your seekers still hit with 6's without skyfire.
    Well... first of all, I agree with ehlijen, as the FaQ indeed speeks of the "BS of a model’s Shooting attack", as opposed to the rulebook, which speeks of the BS of the model itself. So after reading the entire FaQ, I think, BS1 might be a better idea.


    But for the fun of the argument:
    (So dont read, if you dont have some kind of sense of humor... )

    First, the rules about zooming flyers dont really add anything, as they just refer back to the rules of snapshots.

    And, the rules for snapshots just set the BS of that unit in question to 1. (They arent shots, that only hit on 6.)
    But this BS1, that your tank now has, isnt a problem.
    You dont use the BS of the model ot unit for the special ability "seeker".
    That BS 5 isnt the BS of "model or weapon" at all. So per rulebook, snapshots dont do anything to it.
    (Its not a modification either.)

    Its part of how you use "seeker".
    "Note that as markerlight counters are removed from the target before the shooting attack is made..."
    "For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile..."

    As you see, its not really part of the shooting attack of that model, as it is resolved before it.
    It just partially overlaps with it.
    But snapshots dont really affect it.

  17. #17
    Chapter Master Charistoph's Avatar
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Depulsor View Post
    Nope, that FaQ has no meaning here.
    The BS5 of the seeker missile isnt a modification of the BS of the firer.

    The firer gets BS1, as normal for snapshots.
    Its just, that you use BS5 to resolve the missile shot.
    This shot ignores the BS of the firer. May it an unmodifiable 1 or not... that stat just isnt used at all.
    That was the case in the previous codex. Now, only a model carrying a Seeker may fire the Seeker. This also is no longer disassociated with its firing, either.
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  18. #18

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    I'm not sure what the confusion is?

    a skyray with a velocity tracker may fire a seeker at a flying unit, resolved at bs5.

    that seems pretty self explanatory.

    And as always, codex trumps BRB
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  19. #19

    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    Quote Originally Posted by canucklhead View Post
    I'm not sure what the confusion is?

    a skyray with a velocity tracker may fire a seeker at a flying unit, resolved at bs5.

    that seems pretty self explanatory.

    And as always, codex trumps BRB
    The confusion was more about seekers from somethin like... say... a Hammerhead without skyfire.

    You could technically argue:
    - Snapshot itself sets the BS of the model, that fires "seeker" to 1.
    -> Doesnt matter, as the BS of that model is never used by "seeker" in the first place.

    - The FaQ states, that you can never modifie the BS1 of snapshot.
    -> Doesnt apply, as the snapshot BS1 only ever concerned the model. Not the "seeker" ability. And the BS1 of the model is not modified, changed, swapped, in any form. Its still 1, stays 1, counts as 1, and looks like 1.

    So you stay true to the rulebook: BS of the carrier -> 1.
    You stay true to the FaQ: Dont change that BS of 1.
    And still fire the "seeker" at BS5.

  20. #20
    Librarian Mack's Avatar
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    Re: Skyray, seeker missiles and skyfire

    I think the rules would say that a snap shot is made at BS1...the markerlight (and only a network markerlight would work) is there for made at BS1 for a snapshot. Then, using the marked ruling, the seeker missle hits at BS5. This is a special rule from the codex and trumps the BRB rules. The seeker missle is remember a laser guided missle. If the marker light hits at snapshot, the missle is now laser guided and very unlikely to miss. Again, Codex trumps the BRB.

    If you are firing a seeker direct, without a marked token, then it hits like all snapshots at BS1.

    This whole point is really moot, as only a Skyray can have a network marker light, and that is the only way you can get a seeker to hit at BS5...assuming you mark it at BS1 due to snap shot, and then snapshot doesn't matter as you can hit it wiht skyfire anyways.

    Confused yet?
    Last edited by Mack; 17-04-2013 at 16:49.

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