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Thread: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

  1. #41

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    Sounds like a plan. If your reboot also adresses the clunky movement/charging rules you may consider me a fan.
    Actually it does!
    For example to determine if a unit is able to charge its target, you only measure once before moving the charging unit. No iterations of multiple short wheels to maximise models fighting or to get into contact at all!
    The following picture shows some diagrams which illustrate some of the movement rules:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am not saying it is perfect but the changes make moving and charging easier without (over-)simplifing the movement of units to that of single models or fast cavalry.

    Btw the rule set also addresses
    - warmachines (no guessing, reasonable powerlevel)
    - character sniping
    - weapon special rules / unit equipment
    - the general panicking of the board turn one
    - etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    Actually that's GW's job you're doing for them; spotting the flaws in a product and improving on it. And you're doing it free to boot! I like all those improved Oldhammer versions popping up; if things continue like that we will soon be able to phase GW completely out. Never underestimate fan devotion!
    While I am not a fan of GWs business decisions, I would not like GW to go away. They are still manufacturing some of the best miniatures on the market (although at premium prices).
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  2. #42
    Commander Rogue's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by logan054 View Post
    Sadly it doesn't address the main issue of 6th, the charger will usually win and break his opponent because all the defending unit usually has to rely on is its static combat res. This is why pretty much every cav unit was 5/6 guys with hero, a banner and warbanner. The anti-cav rule helps a little but bar Elf spearmen (who will still die, they will just cause causality or two) and pikemen, cavalry will still destroy infantry block. It's not like those units will ever get into combat with a fast moving unit anyway, they will pick the fights they want. I rarely mattered how large the unit was, while your combat system is based on the charger getting such an advantage (striking first), Fast moving armies will usually win because they will get the charge, wipe out the front rank and break the enemy. The change to the pursue rate of Heavy Cavalry does help, it just makes the chance of your unit surviving more random.

    I really do like what your trying to do, 7th was better than 8th in a lot of ways, 8th did get a few things right (or in the right direction), ignoring those and trying to improve them is just a step backwards, with 8th, I think it took a few steps sideways.
    My opinion and experience was that was a more rampant problem in the 7th edition rather than in the 6th. I do agree that it was an issue, however, I can see a few changes that may help on this issue from WAB.
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  3. #43

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Latest update:
    - Major update

    Revision of all army lists. Below is a list of all major changes. Everything else were only minor clarifications, fixing typos and implementing a consitent language with no direct effect on the way the lists work.

    Empire Changelog

    V0.4
    • Magic Items
    oo added ‘Rod of Power’
    oo Luck Stone: reduced cost to 20p
    • General of the Empire
    oo removed Dragon
    • Arch Lector
    oo added War Altar
    • Warrior Priest
    oo added ‘Devine Protection’
    • Free Company: unit cost reduced to 60p
    • Warmachines: implemented scaling unit costs
    • Flagellants: implemented scaling unit cost
    • New Units
    oo Helstorm Rocket Battery
    oo Steam Tank
    oo Imperial Dwarfs
    oo Imperial Ogres
    oo Halflings
    oo Halfling Hot Pot
    • Added Reference Section

    High Elves Changelog

    V0.7
    • Spells
    oo Added Drain Magic
    oo Added Flames of the Phoenix

    Ogre Kingdoms Changelog

    V0.3
    • Leadbelcher Cannons now suffer from shooting at long range.

    Vampire Counts Changelog

    V0.4
    • Clarifications (Crumble / Mastermind / IoN)
    • Added Lahmian Vampire Countess with Coven Throne
    • Added Mortis Engine
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  4. #44

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Small Update:
    As promised, the unit power level of all army lists has been assessed to prevent a potential powercreep.
    For this purpose a comparison of ‘optimal’ units in nearly 20 categories has been composed and their relative power levels rated. (see attached document)
    Although the overall balance of the listed units is quite good IMO, they only represent a small fraction of all unit combinations possible. Furthermore character models have not been incorporated into this analysis. Therefore this comparison is neither comprehensive nor sufficient and cannot be seen as proof of the overall game balance but it gives a good overview of the current external unit balance.

    Next up:
    • Chaos: Beastmen, Daemons and Warriors all get their own list including the option to field a ‘Realm of Chaos’ force that allows you to field units from all three Chaos lists in a single army!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails External Unit Balance Comparison.pdf  
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  5. #45

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Latest update:
    - Warriors of Chaos list released!

    All units, characters and options are available incl. Putrid Blightkings! The rules for 'Realm of Chaos' style lists are already included which allow you to field mortals, beast and daemons in a single army (once those lists are ready)!


    Next up:
    - Daemons of Chaos (almost finished)
    - Beasts of Chaos
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  6. #46
    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Just skimming over it, I see that you have 13(!) pages dedicated to the three Lord options. I'd look for ways to reduce that to no more than 3.
    As a long-time Goblin player, I can reliably inform you that failure is ALWAYS an option.

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  7. #47
    Chapter Master Still Standing's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Skimming through the Chaos book at work. Is it your intention that Warriors can take Hand Weapon, Shield and Great Weapon, as they can in your list? This essentially turns them in to Black Orcs, but cooler because they're not Orcs.
    Still's Heresy Log - Thousand Sons; new and improved following MKA Masterclass course.

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  8. #48

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by Avian View Post
    Just skimming over it, I see that you have 13(!) pages dedicated to the three Lord options. I'd look for ways to reduce that to no more than 3.
    You are right, the character section is very bloated and I am not happy about it. The reason for this is that every choice has its own set of options with their own point costs (if necessary). In the end most options stayed the same, so there is definitely room for compression. What makes it worse is that most entries are just over half a page so that I couldn't fit two entries on one page without changing the format. In the end digital pages are cheap but I will look into ways to streamline the section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Standing View Post
    Skimming through the Chaos book at work. Is it your intention that Warriors can take Hand Weapon, Shield and Great Weapon, as they can in your list? This essentially turns them in to Black Orcs, but cooler because they're not Orcs.
    I am not quite sure if I get your point.
    It is true that Chaos Warriors currently can be equipped with Shields and Great Weapons in addition to the (single) Hand Weapons they come with. This makes them quite flexible but also this option costs 4 points per model which increases their point costs from 14 to 18. Therefor I think it is a viable option but not overpowered. But time may tell a different story (and would result in adjusted point costs or options).
    In regard to your comparison of them to Black Orcs: If I am not mistaken, BOs have the option to use additional Hand Weapons as well as Great Weapons. This option is not available to the Chaos Warriors in their current form because they are only allowed a single weapon upgrade, i.e. either Great Weapons OR additional Hand Weapons OR Halberds. But even if they had access to all weapon options at the same time, they would be quite expensive and not the optimal choice IMO.

    Thanks for your interest in the project!
    Your feedback is very appreciated!
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  9. #49
    Chapter Master Still Standing's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    I agree with your assessment, but I thought it might be an oversight due to being different from the Army Book. I know it's an entire rewrite, but still...
    Still's Heresy Log - Thousand Sons; new and improved following MKA Masterclass course.

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  10. #50
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    i really like what you did with empire. i agree completely on a lot of stuff that it would work a lot better the way you laid it out.

  11. #51

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by EvanM View Post
    i really like what you did with empire. i agree completely on a lot of stuff that it would work a lot better the way you laid it out.
    Thanks!

    Latest update:
    - Daemons of Chaos list released!


    Info on the Daemons of Chaos list:
    • All choices and options are available (inlc. a few new ones)
    • Animosity and classic Instability is back!
    • As always, it was taken care that every unit has its role and every Chaos deity has its own playstyle: Khorne is aggressive, Nurgle defensive, Slaanesh mobile and Tzeentch excels in ranged combat. Themed armies are also possible and should be viable ingame. For example Khorne daemons lost frenzy and gained new options that allows them to dispel spells even when there is no wizard in the army.
    • Overall daemons are very powerful but also very expensive (point wise) which balances them out. At least that was the plan



    Next up:
    - Beasts of Chaos (almost finished)
    - Revision of all lists (errata, small adjustments, new options and new units)
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  12. #52

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Major Update:
    - Revision of the complete rule set (changelog see below)

    Feedback is highly appreciated, especially for the core rule changes!
    Thanks

    Changelog

    Rules Changes in Version 1.02
    • Movement
    oo Units have to retain a frontage of at least 60mm if possible. [to minimize ‘conga’ tactics]
    oo Single models with a US < 3 cannot 'redirect'
    • Close Combat
    oo Models in btb contact with a unit champion may always direct attacks at the unit itself as long as there are common rank and file models left. [Reasoning: no blocking shenanigans]
    • Frenzy
    oo Mounts (incl. creatures pulling chariots) never gain +1A
    • Skirmishers
    oo Clarified how charges against Skirmishers are handled
    • General and BSB
    oo Added Inspiring Presence and Hold Your Ground! special rules for easy reference
    • Warmachines
    oo Catapult: added a clause that allows to target a point ‘inside’ a unit
    oo Cannon: revised wording
    oo Flamer weapon: revised wording
    • Special Rules
    oo Random Movement: added a condition for board edge
    • Global Army List Changes
    oo BSB have no longer access to mundane weapon upgrades (the few options that were left were dropped for balancing reasons)
    oo Biting Blade is available again for almost all armies
    oo Staff of Sorcery: point cost reduced to 20p
    oo Point cost for the Standard upgrade for (non-light) cavalry units were unified

    Empire Changelog
    V0.5
    • Added rules for:
    oo Grenade Launching Blunderbuss
    oo Hochland Long Rifle
    oo Pigeon Bombs
    oo Repeater Handgun
    oo Repeater Pistol
    • Added Character
    oo Master Engineer
    • Added Mount
    oo Mechanical Steed

    Skaven Changelog
    V0.5
    • Added new spells
    oo Plague
    oo Searing Doom
    oo Wailing Warpstorm
    • Added new characters
    oo Vermin Lord
    oo Assassin
    • Added new mounts
    oo Screaming Bell
    oo Plague Furnace
    • Warlock Engineer: Added No Leader special rule
    • Plagueclaw Catapult: Cost reduced to 60p + Nx25p
    • Ring of Darkness: Cost reduced to 15p

    Ogre Kingdoms Changelog
    V0.4
    • Added ‘Look-Out Gnoblars’ as army wide special rule

    Vampire Counts Changelog
    V0.5
    • Etherial grants magical attacks
    • Ghostly Howl / Death Shriek hits count as magical
    • Ghouls: M5
    • Varghulf gains Terror

    Warriors of Chaos Changelog
    V0.4
    • Revision of Khorne’s magical defense abilities:
    oo Disciple of Khorne is no longer limited
    oo Disciple of Khorne cost reduced to 20p
    oo Spelleater Shield reduced to 65p
    • Kin units: A Kin unit is a CORE unit with the same affiliation as the warlord (see below). For warlords with no affiliation (i.e. undivided) all CORE units count as Kin units.
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  13. #53
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    I'm not sure Kin is the word I'd use but I definitely like the intention. Your Warband system really gives the chaos flavor even at the army building level.
    Trying to figure out how to play 9th Age with round bases...

  14. #54

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I'm not sure Kin is the word I'd use but I definitely like the intention. Your Warband system really gives the chaos flavor even at the army building level.
    Thanks! The system is based on the 5th ed. Realm of Chaos list. It also limits 'cherry picking' and elegantly restricts which characters can join which units.
    The 'Kin' units should represent the warlord's personal honor guard, warriors of his own tribe/clan(/spawning?) or something like that. The word should also be universally applicable for all three Chaos factions (Warriors, Daemons and Beastmen). The first thing that came to my mind was 'Chosen' but this keyword is already reserved for the respective Chaos Warriors unit. So I ended up with 'Kin' but am still open for suggestions!
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  15. #55
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Kin makes me think Wood Elves.

    Maybe something like Cult? Units with following a given champion of the same affiliations would logically belong to the same Cult.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; 09-11-2014 at 04:56.
    Trying to figure out how to play 9th Age with round bases...

  16. #56

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Kin makes me think Wood Elves.

    Maybe something like Cult? Units with following a given champion of the same affiliations would logically belong to the same Cult.
    IMO Cult implies a heavy religious component which is fitting for an army devoted to the chaos gods but not specific enough (i.e. most chaos units could be described as cult units). I would rather prefer a term that reflects a family/tribe/bloodline aspect.

    What do you think about bloodline/bloodbound unit or tribesmen/clansmen?
    Also what about kinship/kinfolk unit? Or is that still too close to the asrai equivalent?

    In the end it is not that important as the term is only relevant during the army building stage and has no ingame meaning.
    But I am always looking for ways to improve the rule set and make it as well rounded as possible. This also includes the wording, especially since English is not my first language.

    Thanks again for your feedback!
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  17. #57
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Tribe would work, Warriors and Beasts are certainly tribal and while its not a perfect fit for daemons its not bad either. Kin was too Wood Elf. Bloodline is too Vampire Count.
    Trying to figure out how to play 9th Age with round bases...

  18. #58

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Update:
    - Beastmen list is available!

    This marks another milestone as with the completion of the Beastmen list we also completed the 'Realm of Chaos' series!
    So this leaves us with only 2 (or 4) more lists to go: Tomb Kings, Bretonia (Chaos Dwarfs, Dogs of War).

    Info on the Beastmen list:
    • all options and choices are available
    • marks are available for characters and specific units that build the 'core' of the army
    • Units with 'Ambush' are implemented with a variation of the 'Raiders' rules. This allows players to field their units either as blocks of rank and file or as a more mobile variant that lack rank bonuses.
    • Just like with the Warriors of Chaos list the character section got out of hand and spans multiple pages. I am currently looking into ways to compress the section without losing the finely tuned options and their point costs. Until then I recommend to only print the sections that are of interest to you or use a PDF program to cut the file to your liking.


    Have Fun!



    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Tribe would work, Warriors and Beasts are certainly tribal and while its not a perfect fit for daemons its not bad either. Kin was too Wood Elf. Bloodline is too Vampire Count.
    Thanks again for your contribution!
    I will consider 'Tribe unit' or 'Tribal unit' for the next revision.
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  19. #59

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Update:
    - new section "Battle Reports" is available

    I finally found some time to compose a WFB CE battle report:
    Beastmen vs Wood Elves

    Have fun and a happy holiday season!
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

  20. #60

    Re: Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans

    Update:
    • Revision of the house rules as well as all army lists (changelog see below)


    A lot of small changes and clarifications. But some are farreaching and affect (nearly) all lists.

    I would like to thank everbody for their feedback that helped to improve the rule set!

    Happy Holidays!


    Changelog

    Global Changes
    • Reduced US of monstrous mounts to comply with new ‘Look Out Sir!’ rule
    • Minor wording and spelling revisions

    Rules Changelog
    V 1.03
    • Movement: Units have to retain a frontage of at least 60mm (at the end of their movement) if possible.
    • Magic
      • Spell Categories: added additional information
      • Stacking of Spell: added new paragraph
      • Stacking of Spells and Special Rules: added new paragraph
      • Characteristics of 0: added new paragraph
    • Monstrous Infantry: revision (see Characters below)
    • Monstrous Cavalry: revision (see Characters below)
    • Characters
      • Revised ‘Ranged attacks at characters within or near units’ section
    • Templates: Swarms are hit at 3+
    • Warmachines:
      • General Rules: revision


    Beasts of Chaos Changelog
    V0.4
    • ‘Throw Rocks’: added misfire conditions
    • Guiding Whispers: added “Models on foot only!”
    • Revised ‘Eye of the Gods’ wording
    • Kin units are now called Tribal units
    • Removed ‘Horn of the Great Hunt’ as an option for BSBs as they cannot be the army general.
    • Bestigor Champion: raised cost to 15p

    Daemons of Chaos Changelog
    V0.4
    • Revised ‘Eye of the Gods’ wording
    • Kin units are now called Tribal units

    Dark Elves Changelog
    V0.4
    • Poisons: count towards magic items limit

    Dwarfs Changelog
    V0.3
    • Revised ‘Bombs’ special rule for Gyrocopters/Gyrobombers
    • Runic Items: defined how multiple runes stack
    • Anvil of Doom
      • Added shields for guards


    Ogre Kingdoms Changelog
    V0.5
    • Revised ‘Look-Out Gnoblars’ special rule

    Orcs & Goblins Changelog
    V0.4
    • Revised wording of the ‘Squig Hoppers’ special rule

    Warriors of Chaos Changelog
    V0.5
    • Revised ‘Eye of the Gods’ wording
    • Kin units are now called Tribal units
    If you are interested in experiencing WFB in a new way, have a look at the Warhammer CE: the definitive rule set for WFB veterans thread!

    Also check out the WFB CE Battle Report!

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