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Thread: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

  1. #1

    Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    I don't know if anyone here plays Pike and Shotte without being on the Warlord forums, but just in case, here are my army lists for Zaporozhian Cossacks and Muscovy.

    They are based on the information in By Fire and Sword, the new 15mm ruleset for Renaissance Eastern Europe. The book is gorgeous and packed with info, but the rule system itself is a bit too crunchy for my simple brain, so I've converted these armies to P&S (the book itself already has lists for Poland-Lithuania, Sweden and The Ottoman Empire). These have not been playtested, though the Cossack one probably will be as soon as I find an opponent. I would gladly welcome any feedback, or even non-constructive praise...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cossack P&S.pdf   Muscovite P&S.pdf  
    Last edited by CommissarKlink; 12-07-2013 at 04:53. Reason: Ogniem I Mieczem can translate to either "BY fire and sword" or "WITH fire and sword" but I suppose I should stick to the official version...
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  2. #2
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    I know very little about these forces but... the Cossack list does look a little boring with only two options.

    Edit: nevermind... I found page two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
    What the Modsticker said.

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    Chapter Master sigur's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Looks interesting, thanks for sharing! I have to admit that I don't know too much either about these two specific forces. What time are those representing? Early to mid 17th century? Why do the cossacks have such insane commander values?

  4. #4

    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Codsticker - Wait'll you see the Crimean Tatar list I'm finishing up, it actually is only one page. They were a pretty non-varied bunch.

    sigur - Strictly speaking, the book I'm using as a source only covers 1648-1676. But with only minor adjustments, the Cossack list should be good for the whole century, and the Muscovy list should be usable as far back as Ivan the Terrible's reign. And for the Cossack commanders, I pretty much took the values from the official Poland list, then swapped the values for infantry and cavalry commanders. Cossack infantry was just about as well-lead as Polish cavalry, and Cossack cavalry was just as mediocre as Polish infantry. As far as I can tell, the Khmelnitsky rebellion was a pretty even match in terms of commander skill.

    Perhaps I should update the PDFs with some historical context. And page numbers. And pictures.
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  5. #5
    Chapter Master mrtn's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Tatars too? Nice, you're spoiling us.

    I guess you used the point costs included in the P&S rulebook? The costs are a bit weird in places, but that's true for all army lists, the official ones most definitely included.
    Interesting to see the word Soldat in the Muscovy list, that's the exact Swedish word for soldier.

  6. #6

    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    I went back and revised the Muscovite and Cossack lists, including devising a few new rules. So, rather than (re)posting each army piecemeal, I'm editing everything together into a mini-supplement, which I will post when completed. It will have complete lists for Cossacks, Muscovites and Tatars, new special rules, a historical outline, some new Dramatis Personae, and maybe also some information for using the official Polish-Lithuanian and Ottoman lists for pre-1683 conflicts. I suppose I could also include options for altering the TYW Sweden list for use in The Deluge.

    Yes, I am using the points system from the P&S rulebook. Since extensive playtesting is not an option for me, it seemed like the best available option.

    I would not be surprised to learn that the word "soldat" was adopted directly from Swedish. Between the various Russo-Swedish wars, and the De La Gardie campaign where the two nations allied against the Poles, it would be easy to argue that the Swedish military was the foremost source of Russian exposure to Western-style pike/shotte tactics.
    Last edited by CommissarKlink; 15-07-2013 at 06:19.
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    Chapter Master sigur's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by mrtn View Post
    Interesting to see the word Soldat in the Muscovy list, that's the exact Swedish word for soldier.
    No, no, it's the exact word for soldier in German! Stop nicking stuff! :cheese:

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    Chapter Master sigur's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Bah, the Romans. What did they ever do for us?

    Yeah, Soldaten is plural. Not sure why, but people keep expecting that German words end on "-en". ("Ah, meine Leben! Den Hunden haben bitten me!")

  10. #10

    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by sigur View Post
    Yeah, Soldaten is plural. Not sure why, but people keep expecting that German words end on "-en". ("Ah, meine Leben! Den Hunden haben bitten me!")
    I can't speak for the Swedes, but of course in English we don't really have noun declension any more. Therefore, from whatever German sentences or phrases we happen to have seen, we probably just sort of expect German words to occasionally have random endings.

    Still working on the supplement. Summarizing history is surprisingly difficult. Also, any suggestions for Dramatis Personae? I'm thinking Lisowski (and successors), Kuzma Minin, Tuhai Bey and Bohdan Khmelnisky for sure. I was thinking about including rules for Ivan the Terrible, I've got some nifty special rules in mind for him but I don't think he ever actually commanded in the field personally.
    Last edited by CommissarKlink; 16-07-2013 at 15:52. Reason: word variety
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    Chapter Master mrtn's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by sigur View Post
    Bah, the Romans. What did they ever do for us?

    Yeah, Soldaten is plural. Not sure why, but people keep expecting that German words end on "-en". ("Ah, meine Leben! Den Hunden haben bitten me!")
    Weirdly enough -en is the definite article in Swedish, so soldaten means "the soldier".

    Quote Originally Posted by CommissarKlink View Post
    Still working on the supplement. Summarizing history is surprisingly difficult. Also, any suggestions for Dramatis Personae? I'm thinking Lisowski (and successors), Kuzma Minin, Tuhai Bey and Bohdan Khmelnisky for sure. I was thinking about including rules for Ivan the Terrible, I've got some nifty special rules in mind for him but I don't think he ever actually commanded in the field personally.
    Karl X Gustav could be a Swedish DP? Probably don't need new troops compared to the main P&S rules, but if you want to game The Deluge Gustav II Adolf is a bit late...

    PS, I'll send you a PM CommissarKlink.

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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by CommissarKlink View Post
    I can't speak for the Swedes, but of course in English we don't really have noun declension any more. Therefore, from whatever German sentences or phrases we happen to have seen, we probably just sort of expect German words to occasionally have random endings.
    Cue Swedish Chef in 3... 2... 1...

    :P

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    Chapter Master Lars Porsenna's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by Eumerin View Post
    Cue Swedish Chef in 3... 2... 1...

    :P
    Bork, bork, bork!

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    Chapter Master sigur's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by CommissarKlink View Post
    I can't speak for the Swedes, but of course in English we don't really have noun declension any more. Therefore, from whatever German sentences or phrases we happen to have seen, we probably just sort of expect German words to occasionally have random endings.

    Still working on the supplement. Summarizing history is surprisingly difficult. Also, any suggestions for Dramatis Personae? I'm thinking Lisowski (and successors), Kuzma Minin, Tuhai Bey and Bohdan Khmelnisky for sure. I was thinking about including rules for Ivan the Terrible, I've got some nifty special rules in mind for him but I don't think he ever actually commanded in the field personally.
    Despite the fact that German is my mother language so it's kind of "natural" to me, I'll believe anybody who claims that word endings seem rather random within the blink of an eye. It's a bit of a weird language.

  15. #15

    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Porsenna View Post
    Bork, bork, bork!

    Damon
    Have you been spying on my baggage train?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Anyway, just another day or two for the mini-supplement. I sent the history summary to a friend to make sure it's readable, and in the meantime I'm just finishing up the Dramatis Personae.
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  16. #16

    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Took a little longer than I expected (stupid hobby butterfly syndrome) but here it is. There's four pages of historical context, three new special rules, army lists for Muscovites, Cossacks and Tatars, ten special characters, and an assortment of pretty pictures. The formatting's still a little plain, and none of this has been playtested, but it should work well enough. Enjoy!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P&S Eastern Europe v1-0 lowres.pdf  
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    Chapter Master sigur's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Good man. Thanks very much for the effort and sharing the fruits of your labour. I'll have a look in a bit.

  18. #18
    Chapter Master Col. Tartleton's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by sigur View Post
    Despite the fact that German is my mother language so it's kind of "natural" to me, I'll believe anybody who claims that word endings seem rather random within the blink of an eye. It's a bit of a weird language.
    The same could be said of English, again because it's German.

  19. #19
    Chapter Master mrtn's Avatar
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    Re: Cossack and Muscovite lists for (Warlord's) Pike and Shotte

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    The same could be said of English, again because it's German.
    Well, is it?

    On topic, good work Klink (as I've said to you already), let us know if you get in a game to test the lists.

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