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Thread: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

  1. #201
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    We had another ECW game using the Warr Without an Enemie rules. Oddly enough, I found this game frustrating. The first game we had to consult the rule book and the QRS a lot which I had expected on the first outing. However, I expected this second game to flow smoother, with less rule book consultations and the like, but some how it didn't; we were still continuously referring to both the QRF and the rule book and found ourselves second-guessing out interpretations.

    Any way onto the game...

    The Battle Whalley
    The Royalist forces under the Earl of Derby having recently beaten the Parliamentarians, have taken up in the village of Whalley instead of pursuing their victory and winning Lancashire for the King. The Parliamentarians recognising an opportunity, have sent a hastely mustered force under Colonel Shuttleworth to gain the initiative over the defensive minded Royalist force of Derby. The game starts with the Royalists just coming to the realisation that an attack could be forthcoming but are unsure exactly how far away the Parliamentarians are.

    Deployment
    The Royalists occupy the village and are unprepared for an attack; none of the units are formed except a unit of foot and a unit of dismounted dragoons which can be seen in the upper left hand corner approaching a stone wall.


    Early Turns
    Having caught the Royalists off guard, the Parliamentarian commanded shot seemingly appear out of nowhere and engage in a musket duel with the dragoons and Tyldesley's Foot; the Roylists are slowly worn down as the Parliamentarians have the benefit of cover.


    Here Derby has managed to successfully get Molyneux's foot and Houghton's horse in column and on the march. Interestingly, in the WWaE rules Derby has the 'slow-witted' attribute (we got lots of comedic value out of that); all order changes cost an extra CP. Fortunately, for the most part he had good CP rolls.


    Turn 4
    By turn 4, the Royalist Dragoons were gone. Such was the state of the Royalists that they had make Army Morale test. The result was that all Roylalist Units switched to "Retire" orders (all movement must be towards their base board edge). In the background only Tyldesley's foot remains; in the foreground, the Royalist cavalry- having made good headway- spend the next few turns to-ing and fro-ing as Derby rally's them only to have the retire again at the end of the turn. In the middle-left of the picture Molyneux's foot will do the same, leaping back and forth over the fence, acquiring DP's the entire time .
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  2. #202
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Turn 5
    The Parliamentarians jump the wall to press their advantage as there is nothing preventing them from reaching the outskirts of Whalley.

    Fortunately for poor slow-witted Derby, he has a number of good CP rolls which allows him to rally the retiring clubmen just in the nick of time: another 1/4 inch and things would be much worse.


    Turn 6
    The middle of the picture shows Tyldesley's foot retiring as fast as they can from the advancing Parliamentarian shot. The foreground shows Royalist cavalry almost in a good position to charge the Parliamentarian foot.


    Turn 7
    From the other side of the table, you can see the Parliamentarian foot have finished off Tyldesley's foot and they have now been joined by their cavalry as they continue advancing on Whalley. In the background Houghton's Horse manage a meek charge: constant manuevring loaded them with DP's which blunted their charge.


    Turn 8
    The Parliamentarians make into the outskirts of Whalley. Foreground, luckily for the advancing clubmen, they are out side of the cavalry's charge arc. In the distance the Royalist Cavalry have chased down their fleeing opponents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  3. #203
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Turn 9
    This photo is from behind the Royalist lines. A mildly amusing situation arose in the middle of the picture. Molyneux's foot take pot shots over a wall at the Parliamentarians who also gain the benefit of cover but as both units are exhausted (ie, are carrying 5 DP's) neither can manage to damage the other. This duel goes on for about 4 turns before someone finally rolls a six and causes a casualty. On the other side of the house we see Derby's cavalry charge into some commanded shot. Behind them we see the royalists benefiting from a quirk of the rules. Instead of pursuing their fleeing foes, the Royalist Cavalry are returning to the battle as the army has once again gone into "Retire" mode thanks to battlefield losses.


    Final Turns
    Unit disruption and a greatly diminished force finally nail the coffin shut on the Royalists; Shuttleworth on the left and Derby on the right observe the conclusion of the combat in the middle of the table between the last stand of Houghton's horse and Shuttleworth's foot.


    Conclusion
    Although it became apparent early on that the Royalists were not going to win this, we kept on playing. Every time we thought it time to call it, fate (usually in the form of a good movement roll or CP roll) would tease us into thinking the Royalists just might be able to scrape a draw out of this. Derby would just manage to get his forces turned around when, once again, I would roll low for Army Morale and end up in retire mode, but not low enough to go into a full on route and end the game. This went on from turn 4 until turn 11 (or was it 12...).
    Having to constantly refer to the rule book did diminish my enjoyment of the game. I should mention that I don't get the impression that my opponent or my host feel the same This game took over 5 and a half hours to complete which, in my opinion, is too long for a battle of this size; and a significant portion of that time was looking up rules, trying to get a handle on the modifiers and trying to find rules for situations that arose however not finding any. I do find the rules puzzling sometimes with some areas having quite a bit of detail and using large numbers of modifiers and others having very little of both.

    I am not done with them yet though ... I think another game is order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  4. #204

    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Hi. A nice game but by the sound of it you had some problems. It looks like you had some strange dice rolls but the game should not have gone on so long. I am happy to help sort these out but I am not sure what exactly they were?

    I was surprised that the Royalist player stayed put after the initial ambush. I think the consensus with us was that they couldn't win a fire fight so they either needed to pull back to re-organise and join the rest of the army. Or perhaps charge, especially with the veteran I5 unit, as the Parliamentarian units are a lot better at shooting but not so good in melee. Either could work but obviously it will depend on what actually happens.

    In these rules it is often a good idea to pause and reform before continuing. So I think I would have pulled back but maybe that is just me

  5. #205
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Thanks for the input- we will be using these rules again so I am certain I will be asking you for help since you seem familiar with them. Since posting I have very carefully gone through the rules and found things we did wrong or missed entirely. A big reason this game took so long was our constant consultation of the rules. What I should do is write out the process for each phase of the game, with limitations and modifiers relative to each process in bullet form.

    As the royalist commander, you start so far away from the troops deployed it seems you have to roll very well for your CP's to get close enough to change the orders of the veteran foot and Dragoons. In retrospect I probably should have spent them all trying to do that but instead choose to try and advance Molyneux's foot and the cavalry, which turned into a see-saw affair once the Royalists were constantly in retire mode.

    And, correct me if I am wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a mechanic in the rules for a unit to fallback/retreat/route from gunfire. The only way I could see it happening is if it received an order to do so, which seems a bit odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  6. #206

    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Duh of course what I should of said first was 'Hi I am one of the rules writers'! So please fire away with any questions you have and I will do my best to answer them. But I should also say the rules are just our view of the way things were so change things if you disagree.

    Since the first post I have talked to the host of your game and he says you also suffered from some poor CP rolls in the early turns, making it difficult to do much

    Yes you have to order a retreat - it would be a retire move. Normally this wouldn't be too much of a problem as it would be relatively easy to issue such an order. But in this scenario/battle the poor general and large gap are a problem. Indeed as this is a real battle you will find it was also a problem in reality as well and of course this is the reason for it in the scenario.

    So I suppose the question is do you think with a little better luck, and perhaps concentrating on getting an order to the front units, that the battle would be more even? If not we could always add an option to say have the commander with the front troops to balance the game. OK it 'bends' history but.....

  7. #207
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    No, actually I had no problem with the Scenario; the deployment of the troops and the Commander is the big challenge you have to overcome, poor CP rolls or not. I think if I had to do it again I would spend the CP's to move Lord Derby as far forward as soon as possible. I wouldn't change a thing. I probably would have done better if I remembered all the rules.

    As far as the Retire order being a means of pulling troops back it doesn't take into account a unit doing of it's own volition- or, indeed retreating or routing- when taking casualties from musket fire. Virtually all games have a mechanic for this and that is because it is a common phenomenom. Your game has a great means of dealing with this in combat- the Melee Result Table. Something similar for unit taking casualties or DP's from shooting would be great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  8. #208

    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    OK on the scenario

    I think you are right on the retiring thing. Strangely this has never come up in our games but I think we do need it. So I have changed Retire (page 13) to -

    Retire: Move back 1D6 and end facing enemy or roll up to maximum movement dice for that kind of unit and end with back to enemy at that distance. When first receiving a retire order the unit can choose to make an immediate rearward move in the order phase. This can be used to attempt to withdraw from a dangerous situation but the unit may not move again later in the same turn. The unit will continue to retire towards own its own baseline until a new order is given and will withdraw from the table if not stopped.

    All non Elite units with 4 or 5 DP’s and under fire can automatically change to retire orders if the player wishes but must then issue new orders to change. Elite units must be issued an order as normal.
    Does that seem right to you?

  9. #209
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    That seems like a step in the right direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  10. #210
    Chapter Master Easy E's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Thanks for sharing this the Batrep. It is nice to see all your hard work seeing action.

  11. #211
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Finished another unit of shot; no particular regiment although it will probably be part of Lord Lougborough's regiment of foot as I have no coat colour or flag colour for it.



    We played another game of Warr Without an Enemie, the same scenario as last time, the Battle of Whalley. his time I took hold of the Parliamentarians and Davis son Alex commanded the Royalists. Essentially the same result as last time in, with the pretty much similar units disappearing in almost the exact same order. This game didn't last as long though as the Royalists quit the field sooner and David essentially umpired the game running the rule book as it were; he just told Alex and I when to roll dice and what to roll. It made the game run much smoother, making it a lot more enjoyable for Alex and I.

    Having played the Parliamentarian side now, I have reconsidered my position on the scenario; I think the Royalists start with too much of a disadvantage. The units start unformed and must form up delaying their response, which is fair, however the units advancing to the wall already start the game with a couple of DP's; the reasoning being they have been marching out. However, by that same reasoning, you could argue that the Parliamentarian units deployed along the wall should also have DP's as they have just marched on Whalley and recently reached the outskirts. Another factor affecting the Royalists (if I remember correctly) is that Lord Derby doesn't generate CP's until turn 2 and those are halved. All and all I think those are too many disadvantages for the Royalists. Now counter to that, both Alex and I played the Royalists fairly aggressively; moving forward as fast as we could to get to grips with the Parliamentarians; perhaps this isn't the best way to defend Whalley. The only way to "save" the advanced units is to take advantage of the new Retire ammendment (thanks to Hwiccee):
    Retire: Move back 1D6 and end facing enemy or roll up to maximum movement dice for that kind of unit and end with back to enemy at that distance. When first receiving a retire order the unit can choose to make an immediate rearward move in the order phase. This can be used to attempt to withdraw from a dangerous situation but the unit may not move again later in the same turn. The unit will continue to retire towards own its own baseline until a new order is given and will withdraw from the table if not stopped.

    All non Elite units with 4 or 5 DP’s and under fire can automatically change to retire orders if the player wishes but must then issue new orders to change. Elite units must be issued an order as normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
    What the Modsticker said.

  12. #212
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    I bit of a new direction for me: 15mm Historicals. These are some Xyston Numidian Cavalry, part of a DBA army I am puting together. I figured that since DBA armies are small, that would be a good place to start; if I don't like painting 15mm then I haven't invested too heavily in it. Too early to tell at this stage though; all I ave done are the horses. Once I have painted up some infantry I will let you know how I feel about them .

    The base are just sheet styrene with my own mix of "talus" and Woodland Scenics Harvest static Grass and Forest Clump Foliage:


    Riders primed and awaiting paint:
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  14. #214
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    They do seem tiny compared to 28's. I had to drill out the hands for the javelins b ut my drill bit is a bit too big. It's a 67 and I think I need a 72.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  15. #215
    Commander Kisanis's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    I love the idea of wargaming in 15mm but I hate the idea of modelling in 15mm...

    But im also not a fan of prepainted.

    How is DBA? I've never played but I know its very popular.

    Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk
    I have too many project armies to list...
    Check out my Painting Blog! Comments/Criticism welcome! Historicals, 40k, Fantasy and more! - 2016 Model Count: 68 Bought/10 Painted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonia View Post
    In other words as a rock player I find that changes to scissors are fair, balanced and reasonable but that paper has been made too strong in this edition and should be nerfed.

  16. #216
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisanis View Post
    I love the idea of wargaming in 15mm but I hate the idea of modelling in 15mm...

    But im also not a fan of prepainted.

    How is DBA? I've never played but I know its very popular.

    Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk
    I haven't actually played a game of DBA yet. David (one of my ECW opponents) has plans for a Republican Roman campaign so I thought I would try my hand at some 15mm. Hopefully sometime this Winter we will get a game in.
    The minis do paint up fast as there is little detail to pick out in 15mm, especially with simple tribesmen such as these. Here is the finished unit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  17. #217
    Chapter Master Easy E's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    I disliked painting the 15mm(18mm?) All Quiet on the Martian Front guys. However, perhaps Ancients would be a bit different.

    Those Numidians look great! Planning a Carthaginian Army then or are you going for Mithridates?
    Do you like free wargames?
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  18. #218
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Yes, a DBA Carthagenian army. So far I am not minding painting 15mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  19. #219
    Modsticker Codsticker's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    The last four weeks have seen me assembling and priming a bunch of stuff as I realised that the weather would soon turn sour (which it has) and I could find myself with nothing ready for paint and less than ideal conditions for priming. So... not much finished work to show for the last few weeks except another grey unit of Musketeers:

    I have some Xyston Spanish Scutari waiting for paint:

    ... and more ECW cavalry just started:

    ... as well as their mounts:

    I was also building some generic northern European terrain which has taken some time and is not yet finished and a unit of grey-coated pike men that are just 4 models from completion.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty
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  20. #220
    Chapter Master mrtn's Avatar
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    Re: Codsticker's Historicals: Fun With Plastic!(and now metal)

    Nice unit. That's one of the reasons I don't spray prime for the most part, the long rain/snow/winter period. I have slowly started experimenting with coloured brush on primers though, I have a new Vallejo Japanese green which seems quite nice both as a primer and colour. I'm also trying to paint riders free from the horses like you now, we'll see if I like it or not.

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