Hordes vs. Warmachine Exercise.

[Closet-Gamer]

The Hordes vs. Warmachine thread is starting to get a little hairy with baseless claims & other such acts. The one thing that was challenged & I found an interesting exercise was a call for Proof. I think I figured out how.

A buddy of mine writes a few things for No Quarter Magazine which is where this idea originated from in a round-about way.

I'll post a general problem from a Warmachine stance & people are encouraged to give a Hordes answer to it.

Heres the rules, we are useing "averages" on dice. Average of 2D6 is 7, Average of 3D6 is 11 & so forth.
No "Perfect positions" measuring. That means Haley has a 14" control area, a Deathripper on the edge of the TB line can get to her in melee, but you rarely ever get the chance to start on the very edge at a perfect 14" from her & people will usually have something blocking her. It's just basically not assuming your opponent isn't an idiot.
I ask that we keep this intelligent & civil. Posts of "X will R0xx0r that problem!!!!111!!one!!!11" are neither well thought out or intelligent, they are simple opinions. We are talking tactics.

If the problem isn't solved with a single model, you are welcome to introduce others (please keep it realistic, Lilith doesn't run 3 Carniveans in a 300 pointer.) There are many models that will need back up, but also realize that the more models you use, the less likely your attack is to work in the real world.


First problem, we'll start fairly easy but still challenging.

The Butcher with Iron Flesh cast on himself & hoarding the rest of his FOC. (DEF 17, ARM 23. 20 Health points) With a Bokur Bodyguard standing at the Butchers 2 o' clock 1" ahead of Butcher.(remember, 2" reach on both.) Thats 101 points in models.

Who has a solouton?

[Begisle]

So what single model can neutralize this situation?

I would love to see what you have from warmcahine that is gonna negate this.

Oh, that's right this is fairly easy. and what your really saying is no matter what anyone says they are gonna be wrong.

Have a Warpwolf Slam the Bokur into Butcher and spiritdoor away then have an argus dopplebark. I can do that all day or until the Bokur is dead

[Closet-Gamer]

How is that solving the problem?

The claims are that Warmachine & Hordes are balanced, this is seeing how Hordes players would handle a given situation. Its an exercise & if negativity & non-answers is all you are willing to bring to the table, maybe this isn't the thread for you?

[Smedley]

Aside from overall tactics one could use to deal with/avoid/neutralize the Butch/Bokur combo, the Legion's Forsaken sounds like a pretty good contender. Butcher upkeeping Iron Flesh and camping on the remaining 5 focus? Then hit him with a POW 8+7d6 Blight Shroud! Hell, do it twice since the Forsaken are FA:2.

Smedley

[Closet-Gamer]

Thats what were looking for! Way to go Smedley!

I have not thought of the Forsaken for taking that one on. Its a pretty safe bet that if the Forsaken is on the field a FOC camping Butcher better focus on him!

Anyone else with a way besides a Forsaken now that its been suggested?

Heres a new one.

Vlad with Blood of Kings up along with Windwall. During his turn he will cast Blood of Kings & Signs & Portents. We'll assume you have a clean run at Vlad, but you need to get him dead in 1 move because he has a Juggernaut 5" away that will be sure to come to his aid next round!

[Begisle]

Lol um the 2 Forsaken with 8+ 7d6 wont kill the Butcher average die roll is only 32 thast leaves 2 points left on the Butcher.

Also your first example is using a model that came out when? Don't see it in Prime or Escalation....lets see what you can come up with when you only use Prime.


Look at your Vlad scenario. Little vague. but whatever.

Slam a Sure footed Axer or Dire Mauler into Vlad Activate said Axer/Mauler and beat him down. Both can on Average numbers.

Blood Trackers with Vlad as enemy can kill him on average numbers

Spelling Thagrosh into melee can kill vlad on average rolls

[Smedley]

Brother asks for a solution, brother gets hooked up. And if my 2 Forsaken only brought Tubby down to the single digits, then I guess I'll just have to finish him off with a Carnivean...or a *******' huge CRA from my archers, or find something else that can dish it out in melee and use one of Thagrosh or Vayl's abilities that ups damage output...

Vlad with Blood of Kings up along with Windwall. During his turn he will cast Blood of Kings & Signs & Portents. We'll assume you have a clean run at Vlad, but you need to get him dead in 1 move because he has a Juggernaut 5" away that will be sure to come to his aid next round!

Hmm, well the Vlad player will generally be doing you a favor if you're looking to put Vlad's lights out and he cast BOK and S&P, without saving any focus or at least blocking some of your charge lanes. SO many people use S&P every turn regardless of which army they're facing or what they're actually looking to do, it often becomes a crutch and they won't realize it until you're on top of them. To crack this nut I'd keep it simple, Charging Dire Troll w/Fortune or Guided hand will probably get my vote, especially if you cast Rage on it first! Ditto a charging Titan or Rager'd/Primal'd Warpwolf, an Axer or Cyclops would need a little help (Abuse! Carnage! RAAAW!), frenzied Carnivean would be pretty stylish...

Smedley

[Begisle]

Maybe someone should point out to Merv and Smedley that the butcher wouldn't have an ARM of 23 it would be a 22 and that the forsaken push would actually kill him on average die rolls. I wont point that out to them. They know sooo much about the game...

[Closet-Gamer]

Maybe someone should point out to Merv and Smedley that the butcher wouldn't have an ARM of 23 it would be a 22 and that the forsaken push would actually kill him on average die rolls. I wont point that out to them. They know sooo much about the game...

Pssssst. Butcher has 6 FOC & 18 ARM. Upkeeping a spell costs 1 FOC. That leaves 5 FOC. 5+18=23.

Guess I know sooo much more about Math too?

Dude, seriously give up the Trolling unless you can get the facts straight.

[Begisle]

Pssssst. Butcher has 6 FOC & 18 ARM. Upkeeping a spell costs 1 FOC. That leaves 5 FOC. 5+18=23.

Guess I know sooo much more about Math too?

Dude, seriously give up the Trolling unless you can get the facts straight.

Pssst.

You said:

The Butcher with Iron Flesh cast(bold my emphasis) on himself & hoarding the rest of his FOC. (DEF 17, ARM 23. 20 Health points) With a Bokur Bodyguard standing at the Butchers 2 o' clock 1" ahead of Butcher.(remember, 2" reach on both.) Thats 101 points in models.

Cast not upkept. Big difference now isn't it.

How can I be trolling when all I am doing is reading what you said. Not my fault that you can't write what you mean.

Also the Axer will kill Vlad on Average die rolls.
Axer is P&S 15, I can give it either The Maulers Animus which ends up being 4 Pow 18 hits being 25damge minus Vlad's ARM at 20 gives me 20 pts of damage, killing him, or give it the Pyro Troll's animus which makes it Pow15 +2.

[Smedley]

Maybe someone should point out to Merv and Smedley that the butcher wouldn't have an ARM of 23 it would be a 22 and that the forsaken push would actually kill him on average die rolls. I wont point that out to them. They know sooo much about the game...

Y'know, I missed my Sunday funnies but I've got to say your attempts to impress us with your mental might beat the heck out of Calvin and Hobbes any day! Bravo!

By the way, first you poo poo the Forsaken suggestion, then you try to prove how stupid we are by showing how it would work. Which is it, really?

Oh, and:

Also the Axer will kill Vlad on Average die rolls.
Axer is P&S 15, I can give it either The Maulers Animus which ends up being 4 Pow 18 hits being 25damge minus Vlad's ARM at 20 gives me 20 pts of damage, killing him, or give it the Pyro Troll's animus which makes it Pow15 +2

Great, so as long as the Axer gets boxcars on each of his attacks. Other than needing 4 12's in a row, yeah that would work fine!

Oh, and as far as cracking the DEF 17/ARM 23 Butcher combo dilemma, there's always Morghoul! Sure you'd have to do the majority of your damage with Titans and other heavy hitters, but once Butch is down to the mid-low single digits you can always go for quantity over quality. I'd say as long as you could get Butch down to about 4 life or so then a fully-fury'd Morghoul could finish him off quite easily.

But what do I know?

Smedley

[Begisle]

I said Slam a Sure-Footed Dire Mauler or Axer into Vlad. Then I wouldn't need to even roll to hit.

It's really tiresome to see two PP forumites come over here and become Ethugs.
Yet they blame others here for their actions.

Way to go.

[Wintermute]

It would be appreciated if all the name calling and flaming ended.

Now.

Accusations of flaiming and intimidation are also not welcome. If you have a problem with a post or poster - report it.

Hopefully I will not have to address theses problems again, because if I do I will issue more than warnings next time.

Wintermute

[Adept]

Maybe someone should point out to Merv and Smedley that the butcher wouldn't have an ARM of 23 it would be a 22 and that the forsaken push would actually kill him on average die rolls. I wont point that out to them. They know sooo much about the game...

Pull your head in, ****wit.

[Begisle]

Okay Adept, whatever.

The problem with bringing the Butcher out to make any point. he kills everything in both games on average die rolls.

What if scenarios aren't the game.

Neutralizing certain models is just as effective as killing them. If I use Shredders to slam the butcher all game, yes I am not hurting him at all, however the Butcher is most effective in melee, if I deny him melee he is neutralized.