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Thread: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

  1. #21
    Chapter Master Karak Norn Clansman's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Very good judgement of source material and treatment of the same. 3D work is commendable.

    On the one hand, much of GW's macroscale data on conflicts makes no sense for their own setting, with armies in the hundreds of thousands or just a few millions as compared to tens or even hundreds of million, or billions of Guardsmen and PDFs as should be expected in larger wars (the Imperium is all about pumping resources and manpower around, all the more sluggishly and decayed through the stagnant millenia).

    On the other hand it's obvious from your work that their microscale data on equipment isn't that far off, although certain calibers and tank "suspension" (or lack thereof) should be interpreted more realistically by anyone wanting to make sense of 40k. That is not to say that you should stray too far from the official miniatures and artwork. Taken with a grain of salt, GW/FW seems to manage reasonably well under your scrutiny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keep
    But modern tanks also go 70+ kph. The LR only goes something around 40kph max. So 700HP should be alright, with the right gearbox.
    And here we see how retarded the Imperium's basic military technology is.

    Logically, it's conceivable that most Leman Russ battle tanks go faster than 40 kph, but let's keep close to the official core to make this overview an authority in the field, eh?

    I shall continue to follow this log with interest.

  2. #22

    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Your Chimera model reminded me of an old issue (#5) of Inferno magazine. Luckily I found the magazine the other day when clearing out my attic. Hopefully this image helps a little!

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  3. #23
    Chapter Master malika's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Hmm, odd design, especially the whole engines thing...
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  4. #24
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Not that odd.
    WWII russian T-70 had two engines too. One per track.
    So it has been already done historically =).
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  5. #25
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    A bit dusty in here Warning, lots o text.
    I was a little bit more occupied the last months because of an internship, so i didnt always have the motivation to work after my real work during the last couple of months
    Initially i planned to not do anything game specific, but it's not very fulfilling just modelling all that stuff and not seeing how it looks/moves/feels in "virtual reality".
    First learning how to do it technically and then trying to figure out a way how to set it all up in a sustainable, future proof manner took quite some time.
    Just for getting the Chimera and the Leman Russ suspension and drive settings to an acceptable manner took me 2 weeks 0.0 (and automatic gearbox still gives me headaches but whatever). Mostly trial and error.

    Anyhow, now that this is started it will take alot less time putting more vehicles into there to review them and they can be refined further.

    Additionally it showed that a basic suspension for Chimera and Leman Russ looks ok, and is obligatory for driving faster then walking pace. The spring/dampers dont really have much room to compress when in normal positions. With my current setting about 15cm. But they can expand more then that. So if some of the wheels are in the air they expand to maximum, and on impact there is alot more way to cushion the metalbawxes. The suspension is still very stiff of course, but better then nothing. After all, this is the grimdark future and there is no such thing as comfort =P
    Once i have all the quirks sorted out with the ingame settings i'll make a video showing how it looks.

    The guns move and shoot correctly for the Leman Russ now, which is pretty awesome to say the least. Seeing a Leman Russ with 3 Heavy Bolters tear something up at night is addictive to watch.
    Which is another thing one immediately notices when you actually give Bolter rounds explosive properties that kinda match the caliber. They are freaking "OP" when you have 3 of them :chrome:
    In all the 40k games i know the bolter is more like a standard solid bullet. In Space Marine it explodes a little bit, but nowhere near enough for a bullet of that size. (0.75 cal bolter, 1.0 cal heavy bolter)
    The only Realworld Gyrojet ammunition was kinda inaccurate, so to help a bit with the power i'll propably dial the strength of low-quality imperial guard bolters down by reducing accuracy. Deadly short range, at longer range only deadly in large salvos.


    I also recently started with the Phaeton Demolisher Turret (3rd Edition Demolisher). I had to make some modifications so the huge 300mm gun can elevate. The inspiration for the big gun certainly is the WW2 Sturmpanzer VI, which had a 380mm Rocketlauncher. I have not checked/ thought about how the guys get the ammunition from the bottom of the tank into the barrel. Without some crane thingy this would propably not work. So reloadtime is definitely pretty high. I'm not sure if the Demolisher should be a Rocketlauncher or a Cannon. For a Cannon it would have to be very low velocity otherwise the recoil might rip the tank apart (at least that's what i would think) With very low velocity comes a lack of punch though, which is not good for penetrating stuff... On the other hand it would enable a "short-range" artillery, with high firing arcs. From the looks/feel i think that would be pretty cool. 500m for the Demolisher is very short range for a cannon.

    I came up with a range conversion of 12"=250m effective range. This is basically standard effective infantry range in the present. 24" (500m) is still possible but not too effective. 48" for autocannons etc sounds also reasonable. 72"(2000m) for tank guns is also ok. Eartshaker effective range would be 7.5km. If you consider that the Gun Calibers are bigger for all weapons then in present day reality this all matches very well imo.
    __________

    What troubles me currently is the commander of all the leman russ tanks. None of the turrets (not old, not FW, not new) have any commander optics that can move independant. So the only thing he can do is watch out his tiny windows on the cupola (if it has some) or look out of the open hatch /use a pintle mounted gun.

    From a technology point this (for me) indicates that the technology for the basic imperial guard mass production material is fairly low tech. Something like 1940-1955 tech. Some exceptions (Laser, Plasmaguns, etc) that we dont even have today, but most of it is very basic. It would make sense, as it's mass produced in great numbers, so the technology is not as good as it could get.

    What i'd like to do is to highlight different techlevels for Leman Russ and other equipment where applicable.
    Most basic would be the Phaeton Pattern Russ (2nd/ 3rd Edition Standard). No firecontrol systems, no stabilized turrets, no real rangefinder, no advanced optics/sensors (no switchable zoom/no radar/no thermal vision). Only a fixed magnification optic, which could have range marks and a scale to roughly estimate distance.
    The more advanced Patterns, E.g. the Forgeworld Stygies and Gryphone Pattern Turrets have multiple stuff modelled on them. First there are 2 windows which could be an optical rangefinder (like WW2 late Tigers, T-55, or Leopard 1). There is also a small Searchlight on all those turrets. But there is a purchaseable extra Searchlight from FW as well. This smaller preinstalled searchlight could be interpreted as IR Seachlight, which is required for better visibility/increased range of low-tech Nightvision optics. If you look closely, on Ryza and Stygies Turrets you have the light and a smaller optic right next to it in the external box on the left side, which could be the Nightvisionoptic. Tanks with this techlevel start to have turret stabilisation in one or two axis. So this should fit into there as well.
    Then there is the Hunterkiller option, which is described to be radar tracking, and a radar is in the bits. This would be an additional step into higher tech.

    That would mean it depends on how much ressources are available/ if a unit is worth it and if it's an emergency, to equip them with higher technology. Higher tech usually requires more training as well. A backwater PDF would propably have only the most basic tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by malika
    Hmm, odd design, especially the whole engines thing...
    I don't see a problem with this. It actually makes sense, as there is more room for passengers/equipment inside, and the big track-units have alot of space in there anyway.
    Also, the exhausts on the chimera's have always been modelled on the sides as well. And Forgeworlds internal drawings also use this design. Too much "evidence" to do it otherwise
    Quote Originally Posted by Benjambles
    Your Chimera model reminded me of an old issue (#5) of Inferno magazine. Luckily I found the magazine the other day when clearing out my attic. Hopefully this image helps a little!
    Cool, thanks. Although for the hull interior i will use the FW interior kit as inspiration. It makes more sense to me /is more detailed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gustovic
    My concern for the limited HP on the Leman is that 40Km/h is too low for a MBT to be useful in a mobile warfare. I would just upgrade it to go at least to 60Km/h, IMHO.
    It's alot faster then on foot and in WW2 this was more or less common topspeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karak Norn Clansman
    Taken with a grain of salt, GW/FW seems to manage reasonably well under your scrutiny
    Yeah, you have to make some assumptions/ small adjustements but after that most of the imaginary puzzle pieces can be fitted together. I don't think it's a big coincidence though, they drew so much inspiration from real world for the imperial guard that it just has to fit someway. From a setting designer perspective this is good as people can relate. And for me it's good as i can make science out of some "pointless" technobabble
    Quote Originally Posted by Karak Norn Clansman
    Logically, it's conceivable that most Leman Russ battle tanks go faster than 40 kph
    Hm why is it logical that they would go faster? Their design is borrowed from ww1 tanks, which only where able to drive at walking pace, so suspension wasnt required. If the design would have some benefit over modern setup it would still be used in reality. From that perspective i think the speed they gave is ok. For chimeras it would be too much imo, but that's me. I'll stick to the sources unless there are serious reasons why i shouldn't.


    You made it that far, so here some pictures for you
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    As you can see, some stuff still looks pretty weird atm. A lot of work to do. The Leman Russ suspension is glitchy, that's why the front wheel is on the bottom instead of in the air. I'm really curious/excited how the Macharius will feel/drive when it's ready.
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    Stygies Vanquisher with 3 Heavy Bolters tearing some poor dummies up at night...

  6. #26
    Chapter Master Karak Norn Clansman's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Nice progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keep View Post
    Hm why is it logical that they would go faster? Their design is borrowed from ww1 tanks, which only where able to drive at walking pace, so suspension wasnt required. If the design would have some benefit over modern setup it would still be used in reality. From that perspective i think the speed they gave is ok. For chimeras it would be too much imo, but that's me. I'll stick to the sources unless there are serious reasons why i shouldn't.

    Please, should the Imperium's main battle tank really be based on primitive WWI tanks and have a speed limit to reflect it? It seems like battlefield suicide in the design stage. I can swallow GW's Leman Russ design with a handful of salt (ignoring the lack of suspension), but not the low top speed which I think GW also attributed the Leman Russ with.

  7. #27
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Great work, as always!

    But you should not blindly follow the GW designs, especially the older ones, as the guy who designed the thin is not a military engineer at all, so they basically designed the tanks with only the "rule of cool" in mind.
    Like the commander hatch. There is no reason whatsoever to keep it in the middle of the turret, right behind the recoiling cannon. Just move it sideways and add one for the gunner as well (maybe without sights)
    And I would still raise the side skirts on the Leman and the Chimera like in mine design, just enough to make movement and firing on rough terrain possible.



    (note that the silhouette of the thank is completely unchanged. Apart from the turret all the measurements and proportions are the exact same of the original GW Leman Russ)

    Keep on the amazing work man!!!
    Last edited by Gustovic; 06-04-2014 at 09:23.
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  8. #28
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    But you should not blindly follow the GW designs, especially the older ones, as the guy who designed the thin is not a military engineer at all, so they basically designed the tanks with only the "rule of cool" in mind.
    Like the commander hatch. There is no reason whatsoever to keep it in the middle of the turret, right behind the recoiling cannon. Just move it sideways and add one for the gunner as well (maybe without sights)
    If the Leman Russ design was to be improved, yes these would be things to change. But i'm not trying to improve their design. I just use it and make the best of it. I want my tanks to look and feel accurate.

    Please, should the Imperium's main battle tank really be based on primitive WWI tanks and have a speed limit to reflect it?
    Mark IV tank topspeed was 6-7 kph, so definitely better The Design of the Tracks/Drive system is borrowed from WW1 Tanks, no doubt about that. The Stats they gave it are more or less in range of a WW2 Tiger tank. The engine is basically just a renamed tiger engine (like noted earlier). The Armorthickness is in line with a Tiger II, just a little bit thicker. Kinda like Tiger II improved. Just the thickness, not the effectivity of it mind. There's no way to determine that because of lack of sources. I'll have to make a system up. I think your view might change a bit once you see everything in motion.
    The "slow" speed is definitely wanted by GW. In one of the codexes it even had a lumbering behemoth rule, which limited speed to 6" + D6 iirc

  9. #29
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Quote Originally Posted by Keep View Post
    If the Leman Russ design was to be improved, yes these would be things to change. But i'm not trying to improve their design. I just use it and make the best of it. I want my tanks to look and feel accurate.
    I would't call it improvement, but rather just making it work in a war environment without breaking down every 5 kilometers .
    But I'm curious to see with what you come up, my friend. Having someone dedicating so much tome on a working 3D model is always great. And if you choose to make the models available to the public that could lead just to better and better results!!
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  10. #30
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Amongst other things, i have started with a hydra turret (FW, not the kinda strange GW one). Maybe the only "Problem" for the turret is the Guns, which are absolutely huge. I've looked around and remembered the ZSU-57 AA Tank had some pretty large/massive cannons as well. Low and behold - With the scale i chose for the chimera chassis it's almost a perfect match in length. So i reduced the diameter accordingly and i think it looks more sane now (heck, buy a FW Hydra turret, and you have 4 perfectly valid Vanquisher cannons for your Leman Russes), yet fearsome.

    Those 57mm rounds of the ZSU-57 where quite fearsome as you can guess form this video, and from a range perspective this is a good match for a long barreled autocannon

    Now imagine another pair of guns added to that...
    The FW data sheet says it has 600 rounds, but i doubt those will fit all into the tank. It remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Keep; 19-08-2015 at 09:56.

  11. #31
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I started Highpoly models for the 3 small handweapons and made a first color/texture check
    These are the normalmapped Lowpolymodels:
    Last edited by Keep; 19-08-2015 at 09:59.

  12. #32
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I'm almost finished with the exterior of the chimera. Some additional clutter and rivets are still lacking
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    As you can see, i added some basic (low poly) suspension. It shouldnt be long until i can show the whole vehicle in motion.
    Last edited by Keep; 30-06-2014 at 18:26.

  13. #33
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    texture and color/ camo pattern test
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    Last edited by Keep; 05-07-2014 at 01:08.
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  14. #34
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Very nice detail dude!
    But with that low side skirts the tank is still going to get stuck on everything that is not a road. Mud, snow, sand, stones are gonna slow down and eventually stop/break the tank.
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  15. #35
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    It's slowly coming all together now zis izz exziting!
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    With the current vehicle physx setup i have for it it's very terrain capable. I first want to finish some other parts of it (lights, guns, effects etc), then i'll make a video how it looks in motion.
    I wonder if i should add roadlights for the driver somewhere, havent seen them on standard vehicles. Only the FW trackguard have them. The gunner has a seachlight, but illuminating the road for the driver makes him useless at his primary task: observe and shoot. So the question is if i should add some (and where) to the default vehicle as well?
    Last edited by Keep; 07-07-2014 at 03:32.
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  16. #36
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Not for criticizing for the sake of it, on the contrary, but I'm still a little bit perplexed on the suspension system.
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    As you can see on my awesome paint scheme, here are the sides skirts (blue) and the track (green) seen from the front. When they do encounter an obstacle, the road wheel are gonna contract (red arrow) and stuff is gonna get stuck between the tracks and the side skirts. Not mentioning that the suspension system is limited in its movement by the skirts themselves.

    How's you model gonna work with that? I'm genuinely curious (and eager to see it actually work! )

    Edit: for the illumination system on the Chimera, maybe you can add some lights like on the old Leman Russ model, on the lower portion of the font hull, below the gunner position.
    Last edited by Gustovic; 07-07-2014 at 22:13.
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  17. #37
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Armor and Uniform

    The damper/spring is limited, so it can't go inside the track system. It always stays out a bit. So the ride is very hard/bumpy if you drive over stones, but it's smooth if you drive through a hole. The wheels could be placed further down (so there is more room for suspension travel upwards), but this changes the look of the vehicle alot, so i leave it as is.


    I did some research on the standard uniform/armor and this is what i came up with so far
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    A 2-piece solid Armaplas /Plasteel / Ceramite (pick your poison :P) Layer and a bottom layer with flexible Mesh of similar properties as Kevlar. It serves as additional protection against fragments/spalling from the solid layer if that is damaged, as cushioning during kinetic energy impact as well as cushioning during normal wearing. Having a solid piece of armor chafing the whole time on your body would be unbearable. A one-piece armor would be impossible to get into, that's why it's 2 pieces. This solution also allows slight adjustements in body size. The extra plate on the stomach would be hinged on joints to allow rotation/slight movement of it to prevent stabbing yourself in the organs with it if you bend down.
    Last edited by Keep; 02-12-2014 at 16:27.
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  18. #38
    Librarian etham's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Regarding the marine vs guard scaling, it's been done for you in the Space Marine video game, which is pretty official. Yes, things are still wonky, but it's a good starting point for heights and limb lengths at minimum.

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  19. #39
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Its just as official a game as dawn of war is... I've checked their heigth and they are 2.25m in armor without helmet (that means including their "plateau shoes"), ~ 2.15m without shoes/armor. The size is ok, but their proportions are... well they are simply fat. They couldnt move their arms the way they do, as the armor clips into the model if they are holding their arms in relaxed pose. To avoid that they have severe tough-guy syndrome and have to keep their arms at 30 at minimum (and 35 at maximum because the shoulder pad restricts it).
    http://abload.de/image.php?img=ksmsh...frhbsdfpac.jpg

    Thats why i will use different proportions based on an actual body instead of just modelling the armor as "standalone". As i want them to be able to equip/unequip armor (including scouts armor and "no sleeve"-khorne boys), it has to fit everything. Not sure where i will end up. Somewhere in the middle i guess. A slightly less big bum then the Marines of Space Marine (ever looked at their torso from the side?) and this official artwork , i guess. It's definitely difficult to get it right and i will proceed carefully with the subject.
    Last edited by Keep; 13-12-2014 at 19:24.
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  20. #40
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Test Videos of chimera:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uxHIjc-3x0 //Autocannon firing
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEKTxYtcog4 // Twin linked HB firing

    Unfortunately the work on the suspension model was almost wasted, you just can't see it 99% of the time. So to preserve performance it won't make it into the "realtime simulation" version. But at least i found that it's not impossible to fit a suspension
    Last edited by Keep; 13-12-2014 at 19:26.
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