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Thread: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

  1. #41
    Chapter Master BeatTheBeat's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    This is so damn great. You are really serious and open with your ideas and though process, and the result is just incredble. Those last videos of the chimeras: Damn! Making me want to start a Guard army, you are. Subscribed.

    Cheers,
    BTB

  2. #42
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Glad you like it =)

    Have been working hard on the autogun, as i had to learn a bit about making low polygon models look almost as good as highpolygon models (the process has some traps that i stepped in). With the help of a nice 3D artist i was able to figure it out. Atm i have only plain color textures, but i think they still look pretty neat. So here it is, Autogun (Agripinaa Pattern II) and 20 round box magazine


    Also, i have been going back and forth with the Leman Russ Phaeton Turret's Commanderstation. First i planned on doing the old (2nd Edition) round style cupola, which is fixed in relation to the tank. However, this would lock the pintle mounted gun to a very limited degree of fire. This would be super unefficient, and also not fun to play once it's playable. So i went back to the more recent (3rd edition) Cupola. This looks a bit like the cupola of an M113, which can rotate. I also decided that a pintle mounted Stubber will always be installed for that turret, to have an Anti-infantry weapon and a usefull commander occupation. I may do an upgrade option for Stormbolter, but that will have to wait. The searchlight is standard in the current codex, so i put it on there as well. It also adds some much needed details for the otherwise boring turret.

    The Heavy Stubber needs to be finished, apart from that it only textures now.
    Regarding the technical details of the armament: The Heavy Stubber is a strikingly obvious "clone" of the M2 Browning .50cal. Some sources also state that it is a very old design from the early ages of mankind... so there wasn't much i needed to adjust. I imported the rough tabletopmodel and scaled it to a similar size as an M2. The shape fits nicely (apart form the barrel diameter, which is too fat on the TT model). The length is slightly shorter then on the real thing, which is ok in my book.
    For the maincannon things wheren't so easy. As you can see in this comparison:
    The maincannon of the tabletopmodel scaled to my chosen realworld scale (~90% of the tank scale you can find in IA books), has a muzzlediameter of 300mm (almost 12" for you brits/americans). That's a naval cannon you mount on battleships/cruisers, not something you should mount on a tank Some scifi magic properties of gun/ammo could explain the caliber and surviving the backblast, but the gun can't be elevated that way, as a gun doesnt end on it's barrel end. There's a breech and other stuff behind it.
    So i had 2 options: either reduce scale uniformly, or just reduce the diameter - as the length seems ok for a tankcannon. I decided to keep the length and only reduce the diameter by 30%. I could have reduced the length as well, but it looks a bit strange as you will see. It would have something of a Panzer IV (Early)Turret. That would conflict with the LR Conqueror Variant however, which i would like to do as well. I found an older picture of a Leman Russ Datashee which states that the battlecannon is 120mm in caliber. Although it looks very realistic for a realworld tank... it doesn't really look like a Leman Russ anymore. It loses it's 40k flair i think, which i'd still like to preserve in some way (Left: uniform scale, Middle: Diameter only scale, Right: Diameter down to 120mm).


    So i've chosen the middle option. With epic scale, everything seems to be more chubby, so slimming it down seems natural imo. As i did it already with the Heavy Stubber i get bonus points for consistency ;] 210mm is still immense however. Instead of reducing the gun diameter even further i came up with an excuse that the barrel isn't solid, but has a mainbarrel which is surrounded by a big shroud. Inbetween is a liquid or gas based temperature pipe system for cooling/heating the barrel, so it can remain operable in many different atmospheric and weather conditions, and deliver sustained fire. The inner diameter therefore doesnt necessarily need to match the diameter of the muzzle. In the following picture, the shell diameter would be 175mm, but it could be basically any size...

    I think you get the idea. What do you think about the barrel size? What would you prefer?
    Last edited by Keep; 19-08-2015 at 10:03.
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  3. #43
    Chaplain Gustovic's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    175 mm seems very reasonable. But I'm still skeptical with the Phateon pattern turret. It's a little bit too small and tall. I would squish it a little bit, to make room for the gunner and the loader. The central hatch for the commander isn't the best thing, but again, we have the Panzer IV that had that exact same feature, so you could maybe move it back a little bit to allow room for the gun to recoil.

    Once the turret is remodeled, you will see that the gun will come down to good proportions as well. I would just make the gun longer, and the Vanquisher option would just use special ammo, if that's your concern. Again, it's really hard to reconcile the LR design with the fluff and the rules it was given and the basics of ballistics of the real world.

    But you are great at it!! Keep on going bro!
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  4. #44

  5. #45
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Implemented the new turret. The Searchlight follows the aimdirection of the commander, which is pretty nice at night. Should propably do another video showing the new animation stuff soon. Also tried a new camo scheme (background) for use with the renegade forces.
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    Also, i've put some dummies into my chimera cargo interior mockup. If you ask me, it's a perfect fit. It's more spacious then you would find in modern day APC's, but we have to consider this: Ogryns also have to fit into the thing, so the extra headroom seems plausible. And, because of the limited effectiveness of the suspension, they will bounce around alot, therefore some extra room is handy for not permanently hitting your head. Also, to use the external lasguns the guys sitting outside have to stand up and turn around. First i wanted to do a centralised controll, so 2 guys have seats with controller equipment where they can fire all 3 lasguns at once. But this didnt work out like i wanted, and there where no sources about a system like that, so i dropped it. Now it's 1 Person per Lasgun. I still have to model the controlls for those. And of course flesh out the details of the interior. The 2 guys on the middle bench are able to stand up so they can fire out of the top hatch. But I'll have to wait and see if i can make that happen technically. The benches are foldable, so easy transport of crates/heavy equipment and the likes would be possible. A medical version with stretchers inside would also be thinkable. The boxes below the seats are supposed to be (removable) storage boxes

    For Passenger Seats i will do a full interior, for crewstations (e.g. gunner, commander, etc) that have a task to do i'm not sure if i'm going to do full interior. Propably not, as they look through their scopes/optics most of the time anyway, so it would be wasted work that could be better spent elsewhere.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Keep; 15-12-2015 at 20:22.
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  6. #46
    Chapter Master Dark Aly's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I very much enjoy this thread, thank you for sharing.
    A sure cure for seasickness is to sit under a tree - Spike Milligan

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  7. #47
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Hydra AA Turret Animation Test

    everything WIP, but i think the firing is already pretty awesome^^
    Firerate in the style of S-60 /or ZSU-57-2 AA guns, like mentioned here
    Last edited by Keep; 31-08-2014 at 00:53.
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  8. #48
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Made some progress on the Leman Russ Hull
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  9. #49

    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Hi Keep, I just made a Warseer account to tell you how much I love this project.
    I don't play much 40K (wow those prices), but I have a soft spot for the lore and the factions, and this is perfect for someone like me. Keep up the great work and I eagerly anticipate any developments, especially if it's to introduce the Warhammer universe to Arma!

  10. #50
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Wanted to finish the Trackunits first, but as this is going to be a real tight fit with polygoncount i need to make the higher-detailed Vanquisher turret to see what remains left. So there it is, waiting for textures.

    The caliber of the stygies version will be 120mm , but as i said earlier - bigger or smaller could be possible as well. And from the damage side this won't make any difference as its all relative
    Last edited by Keep; 15-12-2015 at 20:25.
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  11. #51
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Leman Russ secondaries, Thunderbolt research

    I'm back from vacation. Work continued on the secondary weapon options for the Leman Russ: Lasercannon, Plasmacannon, Multimelta, Hunterkiller missile (3rd Edition), Hunterkiller missile (5th Edition). The placement of the missiles is not yet decided. One tank can only have one type (or none) - the 5th edition missile is more advanced. The 3rd edition missile is fairly basic, not very powerfull, but will be cheap, just like its realworld sister. This fits in very nicely with the low/high tech differences for different Vehicle models/patterns i touched upon earlier.
    Atm i work on Highquality versions of all the secondary weapons to be able to make nice textures for them. I plan on reusing those weapons on other vehicles as well where possible, so the work should be well spent.
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    To have all those weapons on one vehicle is a logistical nightmare, all eventualities have to be considered, and everything has to be as ressource friendly as possible to not put extra strain on the PC hardware. I needed a break from trouble with the leman russ, so i continued with the Thunderbolt.
    Before i can really start on details i need to get the scale of a model right. For the scale of the thunderbolt it wasnt feasible to use the same scale i chose for the chimera. It was too big (wingspan 14m), the pilot would have way too much room which results in poor visibility (can't look down when looking left&right) and of course it's strange to have so much extra space in an aircraft where everything should be as tightly packed as possible to save weight. The Forgeworld scale is completely unworkable, a wingspan of 16m is ludicrous when you apply it to a model that only has stubby wings... unless you plan on putting 2 seats into the aircrafts cockpit. Additionally, the maximum loadout that forgeworld gives us consists of 4x 500lb Bombs (or similar sized missiles) so that kind off dictates the scale as well, as only 4 bombs of that size on 16m wings look very silly.

    Therefore i checked what other aircraft could be used as reference. Modern jets are fairly large because of their sweeped, thin design. The cockpit in relation to the rest of the jet is very small (compared to the thunderbolt design). WW2 planes however are alot smaller. And the thunderbolts design is alot more similar to those then to modern jets. Looking at the Me-262 it has a similar loadout (4 cannons) and up to 1t max bombload (although with 2 guns removed). The wingspan of the Thunderbolt now is at 11m, a bit shorter then the Me-262, but the mainframe/body of the aircraft is of similar size.
    This reduced size helps not only for the bombs, but for the guns as well. I chose the 40mm autocannon that i already used on the chimera as weapon for the quadcannons. Without the reduced size it would have to be some sort of tank gun caliber.

    The engines are super massive, additionally it has vector thrusters on the bottom and a rocket engine on the back, so despite it's brickshape it has alot of power. Therefore it's logical for it to go faster then the Me-262. Also, the wingarea is quite large, so even if it has aerodynamics of a brick, it also has alot of winglift at lower speed. At lower altitudes it's logical for it to fly slower because you can't attack ground targets when flying at mach 1. You need to be a lot slower then that to have a chance to aim your gun/ find the target. Mach 2 max speed sounds a bit far fetched for this design, but who knows at what altitude that is (possibly very high up, where air density is very low and therefore air resistance is reduced alot). We'll just stick with it.

    In Double Eagle the vector thrust capability of lightning and thunderbolt are very often highlighted (compared to the local low tech turbo prop crafts). For the thunderbolt this is definitely doable on the model. The bottom section has thrusters that can be swivelled downwards a bit more then 90, allowing VTOL/hovering. Additionally, the main exhausts can be swivelled like those of a SU-27 or Mig-29 for example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsJyC5g4IBo & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM_BTE8hTbY), at least thats what i pulled out of the model + the novel. I'll change the engine model minimally to allow this vector thrusting. I also like the original FW lightning design, but unfortunately it has neither landing gear nor vector thrusters/ VTOL mechanism of any description in the model, so i would have to comepletely make it up and change the design of it :-/
    The excuse on the other hand is that it's a very old model and therefore lacks detail. But for now there are enough other vehicles to do.

    With the scale chosen i assembled a quick testmodel to check if it feels right. I'm pretty happy with it. Visibility is of course poor compared to normal aircrafts, but not unmanageable. Let's not forget that this is thing is armored with 45mm of armor (FW figure) and besides... this is 40k! Here is a video with the flight test (and some other stuff before that). Unfortunately, the first testpilot didnt survive

    The landing gear doesnt retract yet. It will be quite a challenge to come up with a proper way how this is supposed to animate.
    Last edited by Keep; 15-12-2015 at 20:25.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    The Hydra looks so satisfying when it fires! Everything else is beautiful too

  13. #53
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hellstrike, Skystrike, 500lb General Purpose Bombs. That's the low detail versions

    creating a cockpit for a non-existant aircraft is 'ard as nails You need to study jets really in detail so you can populate the cockpit. Everything needs to make sense in its placement, the size of all the controlls/buttons/dials needs to be right, etc etc... puhhhh. The modelling of the flight instruments (dials) is almost complete. But there need to be status lights, and way more buttons&switches. Those grey little boxes are supposed to be status lights (labeled ???), they all need a real label for example. In the middle is a rad... i mean auspex, and the left side i planned will be a targetzoom camera, that will be switchable to a bomb sight camera (if i manage to come up with a game system to make that happen). All the important flight controlls and weapon switches that you can controll will be animated :chrome: (dont remind me on writing the code for all that though its easy but very laborious) I have a big scribblesheat with rough plans for all the other currently blank surfaces, nothing shall be left blank. But the devil's in the detail. Finding a purpose for each and every switch is difficult
    On the plus side, the work i put into it now can be reused on all the other aircraft with minor adjustments.

    Double Eagle from Dan Abnett never describes the cockpit in close detail. You only get snippets during the action that you can pull out as information. It's described that they have dials (and not multi-everything-screens) for example. The technology level describes is also rather "down-to-earth" and Dan described in his blog that he used Battle of Britain and the Korean war as inspiration. Thunderbolts have a basic low distance radar (auspex) for example. There is no mention of real Headsup display of current jets, only basic WW2 fighter holo gunsights. So i ponder if i should do a headsupdisplay or not. Essentially a HUD is just an upgraded WW2 display, it display some additional information. I mean, the Forgeworld design of the Thunderbolt essentially is a WW2 fighter with 4x more mass (ballparkfigure) and turbines. The cockpit reminds a bit of the Bf109. So in that sense the lower technology level described in the novel fits the design.

    One thing i'm really undecided of currently is the design aspect of the cockpit. All the colors/materials are just temporary, but even with messing/copper rims etc around everything: in essence it would look like a modern day aircraft inside. No space wasted, no useless bauble etc. I'm not sure if that is entirely fitting. I wonder how that could be improved to more grimdarkness without having to rip out controlls. Because jet engine aircraft (that can also transit from and to space) definitely need more then 2 buttons to fly...
    What's your opinion on this?
    Last edited by Keep; 29-09-2014 at 01:21.
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  14. #54
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

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  15. #55
    Chapter Master Gropius's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Really impressive.

    Regarding the look of the cockpit. As cliche as it is, Skulls. Maybe just as Mechanicus Symbol somewhere. Also 40k loves its exposed wires and cables. You also mentioned the bf109 cockpit. The mountings/rims of the dials in that have a more rounded look instead of the modern style with its rectangular/45 corners. In addition giving the textures a worn, beat up look should go a long way to make it more Grimdark. Nothing in the Imperium looks really new.

  16. #56
    Chapter Master malika's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I'm missing that bit of grimdark indeed, but I guess it might also stand in the way of realism. Try to find a balance I guess?
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  17. #57
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Yes i agree, it looks really sterile atm. Part of it is the bland colors and the "modern" color scheme of the WIP model - i need to model everything first before i can apply proper textures. When it receives textures there will be wear&tear, dirt, etc which should help alot, and also more fitting materials/colors (slightly rusty steel type, brass, ???). Part of it would certainly be lack of known symbology atm. I definitely need to work on that.
    And last but not least
    but I guess it might also stand in the way of realism
    this. It may not actually stand in the way of realism. But i can't recall any depiction of 40k showing anything in so much detail like it is required for a jet engine aircraft cockpit. You have some buttons, some screens, but nowhere near the " detail density" i have here. It takes a lot of time/work to create it in the first place so that's certainly one reason why you won't find it in artworks. It requires alot of research to give controllsurfaces believable functions if people can actually read the label on a button as opposed to just having it slightly blurry in the background. It may look wrong because you/we are not used to so much detail in 40k depictions.

    Do you guys have any color scheme/look in mind that you could describe? Do you maybe know some artworks that show 40k interfaces/controlls? I certainly could do with some inspiration sources.

    Free floating cables: I don't really like the idea. In my view, Imperial Guard/Navy vehicles are mass produced to the highest degree imaginable. Therefore, hanging cables are a waste of ressources. They are also a hazard when they swing around in an aircraft. Additionally it doesnt make sense for a cable to dangle down from the canopy - there is nothing that really requires large cables. It may fit better to mechanicum machines, and/or large spaceships which are not produced in such high quantities and are really valuable or ancient and complex. But Leman Russes, Chimeras and Thunderbolts? That's bulkware.

    I'll keep the rectangular trims, as all the imperial designs are also all rectangular/boxy. Think of logistics: In case a unit gets shipped to a new planets adjustments in unit scales and other settings need to be changed. Instead of doing that on the vehicle, the subcomponents will be exchanged individually. The Vehicles are STC but nothing says that an STC is the entire vehicle as-is. It could be that all the parts of the vehicle have STC origin and are then (by STC instructions) fitted together as required. So you can take a subcomponent and exchange it. You don't need to replace the entire vehicle to repair/change something. At least this is what would make the most sense to me.

    This could also create some silly and ridiculous but imo- extremely well fitting situations. E.g. a Unit could be shipped to another planet, and was supposed to receive STC instrument components from a forgeworld. But they received the wrong shipment, so they have to go into battle with instruments showing all kinds of ridculous readings. I served in the military, i could really imagine that kind of stuff happening to soldiers in 40k, just like equally silly stuff happened to us... (example: we got butter and some terrible sausage for an entire day, they forgot the bread and the real rations Oh and needless to say... it was already frozen when we got it. Another company had just the bread, but was waay off to trade it).
    Last edited by Keep; 15-12-2015 at 20:39.
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  18. #58

    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Maybe go for universe style detail by framing sections of instruments in little arched cathedral windows? And if there is space between the arches, just slap down a flat texture of a grimdarksosaddark skull?

  19. #59
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I experimented a bit with round trims and also gothic themed "elaborate" trims and simpleton trims...

    I don't like any of them. The round trims look abit different, but as all the other switch-panels and so on are rectangular the round dials feel out of place. The simpleton trims dont really add much to it. The gothic trims i dont like for 2 reasons:
    1 - If you would look at the instruments from further away the little details get less noticeable, but they add to the "chaos" and therefore it's harder to read the instruments, as it's distracting.
    2 - Gothic embellishments suggest some form of richness. In realworld Gothic architecture you won't find any peasant buildings that have giant arcs, embellished windows, tons of gargoyles and so on. First of all it's expensive to build and second of all - if all buildings, even lower-class buildings had gothic styled blocks, how would a church/ rich place stand out? Same could be said for Imperial Army equipment. It's designed for cheap mass production. Additionally, nothing looks gothic on the outside, why would the inside be radically different? On more expensive, less easy to replace equipment you will find gothic design elements. The model of the baneblade seem to support my theory. And of course Imperial Navy Spaceships, beeing on the far end of the expensive scale.
    The new Ordo Tempestus is more elite and also has more gothic stuff going on, further support for my theory.

    Therefore (after much back and forth) i'm keeping the boxed look - however, i will try to add more 40k curiosities. For example in the canopy-display (not seen so far) i'll try to integrate a "Recite Litany" Warning light, and another light for the corresponding Litany that is to be recited. Also, some signs with the imperial eagle, emperor protects and so on should find a place somewhere. And maybe a storage for an "Airmans book of Litanies" next to a Flightmanual or something like that.
    Last edited by Keep; 19-08-2015 at 10:03.
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  20. #60
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Signed up to the forum just to keep track of this! Awesome stuff! Was just wondering if there was a reason why you hadn't posted this on the offical BI forums?
    Last edited by Scraggy; 08-11-2014 at 12:24.

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