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Thread: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

  1. #141
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Personally, I think you should keep things to true scale. Plus the Leman Russ has a 120mm cannon, not a 150mm cannon. Scifi weapons like lasguns could still have slightly larger/thicker barrels. 40k is heroic scale because of the miniatures, and in a game like arma there's no reason to stick to it. Expanding on your multiple pattern idea, I do like it and I think maybe for the most high-tech patterns, you could make them slightly more practical designs, maybe. :P Or add semi-fictional variants based off of conversions. The 40k RPG also has a ton of weapon variants you could look at.
    You say i should stick to 120mm because of fluff, but also suggest more practical, custom designs - this doesn't really mix :P I considered doing LR 120mm and Basilisk 132mm (fluff caliber). However it just doesnt match their appearance and visuals, so i decided to increase their caliber to something that represents their visuals better (without going overboard). Because if you think about it - the weapon calibers are something they came up with out of the blue basically, they've never done any tests how it would really look or fit. I try to stay very close to what the background and so on gives me, but if it means completely changing appearance i will make compromises. It's a matter of balancing trueness to visuals and trueness to text-fluff. And imo i walk the middle ground. Let's not forget that GW would not blink an eye to shoot stuff down if they see harm with it /disparity with how they want it to look.

    Weaponvariants for the 40k RPG's are mostly handweapons - i have them all cataloged in my "reference archive", so yes, i consider them for PDF / Cultist usage. Though standard issue weapons are more of a priority for the near future.
    I also know about the OFP team, but they have a different quality standard than i do and they also seem to have their own ideas regarding how things work. We'll see.
    Last edited by Keep; 05-06-2016 at 00:24.
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  2. #142
    Brother Sergeant Loki's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Quote Originally Posted by Keep View Post
    You say i should stick to 120mm because of fluff, but also suggest more practical, custom designs - this doesn't really mix :P I considered doing LR 120mm and Basilisk 132mm (fluff caliber). However it just doesnt match their appearance and visuals, so i decided to increase their caliber to something that represents their visuals better (without going overboard). Because if you think about it - the weapon calibers are something they came up with out of the blue basically, they've never done any tests how it would really look or fit. I try to stay very close to what the background and so on gives me, but if it means completely changing appearance i will make compromises. It's a matter of balancing trueness to visuals and trueness to text-fluff. And imo i walk the middle ground. Let's not forget that GW would not blink an eye to shoot stuff down if they see harm with it /disparity with how they want it to look.

    Weaponvariants for the 40k RPG's are mostly handweapons - i have them all cataloged in my "reference archive", so yes, i consider them for PDF / Cultist usage. Though standard issue weapons are more of a priority for the near future.
    I also know about the OFP team, but they have a different quality standard than i do and they also seem to have their own ideas regarding how things work. We'll see.
    It doesn't match their heroic-scale visuals, yeah. I think videogames keep the weapons in the same rough proportions because they're usually not more knowledgeable than GW in designing anything outside of the rule of cool and probably for your reasons.

    As for the LR at least, there's at least two sources of it being a 120mm smoothbore cannon: Chapter Approved 2004 and Epic 40,000. The former describes it as a 120mm smoothbore gun "surrounded by a water-cooled jacket and utilising gyrostabilisers to ensure accurate targeting while on the move". So I guess there's justification for the cannon being bigger, but not necessarily of a larger caliber. Yeah, they came up with the calibers out of the blue without putting any thought into it, but they did that when designing nearly all Imperial equipment in general so I don't see that as a strike against it. They probably went with the LR having a 120mm cannon because even they knew MBTs typically use that caliber. You pointed out me sticking to fluff text (which at least with a 120mm cannon, would make the small LR turret not so ridiculous) not mixing with trying to make the designs more practical. Yeah, that's a contradiction. However, you disregarded fluff text in favor of trying to keep the design as close as possible to the visual depiction on tabletop. I guess it's all a matter of preference. At least, compromise a little on design when the vehicles can't function.

    I think it's worth getting in touch and seeing if you could reconcile your own design goals. Instead of having two tiny teams of modders trying to make a 40k mod for Arma 2/3, we could have one larger team that's able to make faster progress.

  3. #143
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    At least, compromise a little on design when the vehicles can't function.
    That's what i did. None of the vehicles is 100% TT model accurate due to this. Particulary not the weapons and weapon mounts. Same with hatches and all the stuff that needs to be adjusted to real human physiology
    And also none of the vehicles is 100% accurate with the fluff stats (particulary not the 3 max traverse range for artillery...). The only accuracy i can guarantee (i'd say 99% accurate) is with proportions of the vehicle models i have myself (all but the macharius and thunderbolt atm).
    As for the LR at least, there's at least two sources of it being a 120mm smoothbore cannon: Chapter Approved 2004 and Epic 40,000.
    I know and i don't dispute that these sources exist. Doesn't change my mind about the caliber compromise however. Let's also not forget the early LR epic model which likely spawned the idea with the "water jacket" and smaller caliber, which is not really visually represented with the current the plastic model (current LR model has muzzlebreak and fume extractor directly attached).

    i successfully defended my thesis yesterday btw.
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  4. #144

    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Big Fan of both 40K and the arma-verse so loving what you are doing here. Please work at your own pace and dont feel any pressure to release anything.

    How is the Lasgun coming along?

  5. #145
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    The Lasgun (standard) and the Lascarbine (Skeleton stock and normal fixed stock) are finished (apart from certain technical stuff that is required for better performance in realtime rendering). I also added a functioning Ammo-status indicator (those 4 lights you see on the left side of the gun). Red= less than 25% capacity; Yellow=less than 50%; Green1 = less than 75%; Green2 = Full; Off= empty. And lastly the addition of self-luminous markings on the ironsight for better usability in low light conditions was also done.


    Two things on the handweapon front i haven't talked about yet: I am redoing the laspistol to look more elegant and be more similar to my lasgun. And i am also making a Stubgun variant in 12.4mm, an ugly clunky and heavy weapon that will find it's way into the hands of Renegades and propably also the PDF. It only has a 6 round magazine, but the heavy rounds should have some good stopping power, which is something that frontier worlds certainly need in their stuggle with the xenos.

    It's been a while since i started these, i just didnt announce them thus far. With those models i finally had a reference, that i needed to create a holster for the soldier combatwebbing - now i have one in the raw version (will show later when i have more combat webbing related things to show).
    Last edited by Keep; 11-07-2016 at 01:48.
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  6. #146
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    ** Post continuation due to picture limit...
    In addition to that i've also fiddled with various bits and bobs. More investigation and experimentation for a good damage system (still not complete) took quite a bit of time, but i did make some good progress. During that process i made a Gunnersight for the Leman Russ with Battle Cannon and also optimizated performance of the model. Some testing to determine what caliber and size the infantry mortar and the Giffon will use. Infantry will get a lightweight 80mm, still no conclusion for the Griffon. If i take the 3rd edition metal model as reference, a 25cm WW1 minenwerfer is the closest realworld equivalent in size relavite to the vehicle and also in look. But that would make it very powerfull, even more than a basilisk. Putting some puny toy-mortar (e.g. 120mm) on a 30t chassis (supposedly) is also a waste however. It's difficult, as always. That's how a chimera chassis with 25cm minenwerfer (long version, using the small shell) would look. Perfect size for the chassis and in relation to TT model, bad size for what it is supposed to do in terms of fluff.




    The interiors (for drivers and passengers) need some accessories that will be common in all vehicles, so i created a few boxes (first aid, tools, Stubber ammo, utility box, fire extinguisher...). Haven't finished them yet

    It's a bit difficult to know how the dimensions of these boxes should be, so i picked up my work on the Chimera Interior and finalized the model (no full textures yet). The pink light in the following pictures just happened from me screwing up something by accident, it's not going to be pink of course^^ Still looks kinda cool, so i thought i'd show you anyway. The last pic is with 12 passengers wondering why they got no pants issued... (ignore the stupid heretical glasses ... those will get exterminated in future).


    12 Passengers can be seated. Six of those can use the lasguns that are permanently installed (recognize the optic and the 2 conical handwheels close to the view-periscope?) in the chimera. The reason those are hard-mounted is because there is no physical way that the soldiers could use their actual guns out of some hatches. The slope of the roof-bit is too steep and too short. Well they could, but they would only be able to aim at the sky, which is pointless. That's why i decided that those are preinstalled and controlled from within. The back rest of the two seats in the middle can be folded over. This way the two soldiers can stand on it (and have a larger area to stand on) and shoot out of the top hatch. The support for this feature is in arma btw - the implementation requires a bit of work though. Last but not least, the middle seat facing rear can use his actual lasgun and shoot out of the firing port (located at the rectangular cutout in the rear-door). The seat in the corner close to the door to the fighting-compartment is likely used by the vox-operator. I will make a console so he can link into the com-system of the chimera for vox-transmitions and vehicle intercom. The single seat in the middle with back at the wall is the perfect position for the sergeant/comissar. Close to the voxoperator and he can see almost everyone for "epic speeches" or "epic star-downs". He also has access to the controlls for the ramp hydraulics.

    A medical version with 4 stretchers and some seats could also be possible (but not without turret... there is hardly a geneva convention in 40k). And also a command chimera with a map-table, some extra vox-casters and other stuff, as "deployable HQ".
    *adds 2 entries on the todo-paperroll*
    Last edited by Keep; 11-07-2016 at 01:44.
    40k Realism 3D-Modellingproject. 40k: CSM(IW)- 3.2k; IG- 2.7k; Nids-2.5k; WHFB: WoC- 5k; DE- 5k

  7. #147
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Back from the dead i guess? Thank the machine spirit that i didnt use the forum attach for all my images (except some very early ones).

    Delayed Update 21. July
    Finished Pants + Boots version 1 (boots need more texture love)

    https://abload.de/img/20160721014650_1ruj7y.jpg
    https://abload.de/img/20160721014700_1j6ktr.jpg

    Delayed Update 2. August
    Reworked Chimera Weapon Textures, made front and turret extra armor addon based on FW Side plates. I have another turret armor addon finished, based on the old 3rd edition Hellhound's turret but not shown here. The Glass of the periscopes needs more tweaking - it is supposed to look like lead glass, but atm it looks anything but that.

    https://abload.de/img/20160802231506_1rts97.jpg
    https://abload.de/img/20160802234101_16musu.jpg

    I also finished the textures on the reworked Laspistol.

    https://abload.de/img/screen04wslmw.png


    Delayed update 26.October
    And last but not least, there is a new WIP video showing some of the interior and optic stuff i've worked on in action. Audio quality a bit subpar unfortunately.
    Last edited by Keep; 09-12-2016 at 21:56.
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  8. #148
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    New heavy helmet (custom design), will be used by PDF or traitors in various configurations with/without spikes and other stuff. Comparable protection level as Cadian Tri-Dome helmet, but without the inbuilt inbuilt vox speakers and microphone.


    Vehicle mounted vox caster and related extra equipment WIP
    Last edited by Keep; 09-12-2016 at 21:54.
    40k Realism 3D-Modellingproject. 40k: CSM(IW)- 3.2k; IG- 2.7k; Nids-2.5k; WHFB: WoC- 5k; DE- 5k

  9. #149
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    I worked on the infantry grenadlauncher and human sized bolter (for sergeants and officers).

    The design of the grenadelauncher (Caliber 40mm) did lend itself to installing a bayonett lug, like on my lasrifles. Of course i also added a stock, because you can't shoot accurately without a stock... It misses a proper sight yet for different ranges (up to ~450m).
    The bolter is inspired by the godwyn de'az pattern depicted in this artwork. It lacks some more detail, and will be a custom pattern (like my other weapons) to have a bit more freedom. You can see the fixed stock version here, but there will also be a skeleton stock and one version without stock (not sure why anyone would take that, but completions sake i guess its nice to have). The caliber is 0.6" and the magazine holds 20 rounds. Optics/Sights can be clamped into the body inside the recess in front of the rear-iron sight. Astartes would use different ammunition that are the same (tigris pattern uses 0.6") or larger (standard 0.75") caliber, but they would be longer and have a much larger cartridge for increased kinetic energy. I have considered making a 0.5" version of the human bolter as well, having lower recoil, faster rate of fire and more ammo per mag - it's on my never ending todo list.

    When considering the lethality of a 0.6" (~15.3mm) Bolt it helps to picture the effects of a 8mm bullet with explosive load (used by aircraft in WW2 and also snipers on the russian front). The charge is tiny yet completely devestating. I recommend watching the entire video from inrangeTV about that. Now imagine that 5-10 times magnified.
    Last edited by Keep; 11-02-2017 at 19:04.
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  10. #150
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Added a few details to the bolter (this time shown without stock) - this is the lowpoly model with normalmap.
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  11. #151
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Ok, bolter is boring as well, check. Have a pictfeed then.

    sneakpeaking custom vehicle damage system (detaillevel is now almost like warthunder) and featuring... bugs mostly.
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  12. #152

    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Man, I couldn't find this thread again for ages. Looks like you're still workin hard on it, good stuff! Gonna have to catch up with recent updates.

  13. #153
    Brother Sergeant
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    Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    ok i will literally give you money to send me the mod and let me test it.
    seriously that is freaking awsome work man amazing levels of win.
    Last edited by silverstone08; 23-05-2017 at 19:42.

  14. #154
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Brick and Mortar

    Does somebody by chance have an old griffon mortar (2nd edition i think, metal version) lying around? I could use some close up pictures of the gun. The only pics i found of that thing are too small or pixelated to see anything.


    I worked on it's little brother in the meantime - the infantry mortar. Features are all there, some visual details need to be added (after that its unwrapping ,baking and texturing time). And i also finally figured out scale and proportions for the heavy bolter that fit the internals in a way that i can live with (after much back and forth) It still has a long way to go.

    Dummy is obviously only for scale reference. The heavy stubber also fits on the tripod of the heavy bolter. These three will be portable "heavy weapons" that can be dissassembled into 2 loads and carried on the back. Stubber and Bolter both will be fairly heavy (both weapon and tripod each around the 20kg mark), so the heavy weapon crew won't be carrying much else with them.
    The mortar has a grenade of 80mm diameter and achieves a range of a little over 1km. It is much lighter (26kg in total) compared to the stubber/bolter. It was heavily inspired by the short german mortar in ww2 (the barrel length matched quite nicely with the tt model). I will create a longer version with increased range but also much increased weight (60kg in total, requiring 3 loads - therefore 3 soldiers carrying it), because it only needs a little tweaking and gives more options.

    I touched on this many pages back again i think, but it propably doesnt hurt mentioning again: I see the weapon descriptions/ rules in TT as generalisation for one type of weapon. That doesnt mean that all Heavy Stubbers for example are exactly the same - it only needs to be the same for tabletop game purposes, as it would be too detailed otherwise. When doing it more realistically there is no need for that anymore, and the "allowance" of different sizes of the same weapontype solves many issues that one would otherwise have.

    An example is the heavy bolter weaponteams. As TT models we have the standard plastic cadian type on tripod and the krieg one (on a heavy wheeled carriage). In contrast, we have the steel legion and elysian heavy weapon teams that carry them "just like that" and fire them from a bipod. They way i approach this is that i will (eventually) create another, smaller "heavy bolter" that can be carried by one man and fired from a bipod.

    A general thing that needs to be said for authenticity of the tabletop vs realism is that the heavy weapons will never be fully operational with just 2 men.
    While they can shoot and carry the weapons and mounts themself, more ammunition will have to be carried by additional soldiers. In reallife even most "light" mg (in WW2) had a crew of two plus a few others that brought them ammunition. If they are surrounded by ammo (e.g. a prepared defensive line), 2 men is fine. Otherwise more will be needed for support.

    The reason i'm working on the static weapons now is that i want to make start and make some headway with buildings and fortifications. Without them i can't create properly functional fortifications and weapon emplacements. I did some pretty extensive metrics and design testing for infantry, which is important for anything i do, but especially so for buildings. They have to be navitgated and used very realistically. There are no shortcuts like one could potentially take for interiors of vehicles - everything has to be perfectly fitted to human ergonomy in (and also the games system). The firing slits on a bunker for example need just the right size, positioning and geometry, so that a wide as possible arc of fire and vision is possible from inside, but at the same time exposing the soldier as little as possible. For the design there are so many variables. Just for fortifications one has to define how many soldiers should fit in it, should it be modular, what layout should it have, should it be modular, etc. This metric and initial design testing saps quite a bit of time without giving you much to show for...


    I haven't yet decided on the style of the bunkers (mostly rectangular or mostly octagonal, slanted or flat faced, etc).

    As for buildings - i would really love to create a large city with all the bits and bobs a 40k city needs (the "cities" in normal Arma 2 and 3 are barely villages in my eyes). I love the complexity of cityfight environments, and the contrast it provides to large open landscapes. Cityfights have never been captured satisfactory in any game i know. I have ideas how this could potentially be accomplished. However, there is a big potential showstopper in the way of this endeavor -> game performance. I'm sceptical if the scope that it would need for this immersive cityfight feeling can be accomplished without bringing even the best gaming computers to their knees. Its something that can not be tested in advance either. One has to make the city, and then see if it works out. Not the most motivating situation...

    Anyway, here are some shots from my first ingame building-design and -size test. I just plonked down some concept models on a flat plane and spent a while running around, shuffling and stacking the models.

    A key part in cityfights is verticality. So i need to figure out how high the majority of buildings should be in order to allow this to be exploited to the fullest, and also giving a nice "oppressive" vibe (very spongy concept). However it must also not be too high for performance and also for variety (esp. important buildings need to stand out from the rest). Also, if you can only ever see the buildings of the street you are in there is no point in a gigantic city. This completely straight and repetitive long row of high buildings i had there would be extremely boring to play with, so i need a good modular concept to spice the buildings up without spending too much efford. Anyway, its a really long term sub-project of this project. I only fiddle with it when i have an "enthusiastic wave" (read. very high motivation) to allow best progress in smallest time.
    As for the style i would like to combine 1900 european architecture with soviet style and sprinkle gothic on top of it. Not sure how i will fit that all together.
    Last edited by Keep; 19-08-2017 at 18:55.
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  15. #155
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    The time has come - i'm trying to assemble a team to bring this project to fruition. If you are interested you can find more information here:
    https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/t...al-conversion/
    Here is a new (long) video, where i talk about the current state and show some stuff.
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  16. #156
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Ok so watched the whole thing. Holy hells you have done some amazing work. Really loving the realistic feel to the project nice to see im not the only one that thinks about how all the stuff actually works. The guard bolter is cool and the macharius freaking awsome. The banebalde is a nice touch but are you planning on just the mars patter or you going with the lucious as well?

    Also the thunderbolt was relaly cool but will (now that jets dlc is out) you try to implement at some poit the armament switching on it and multiple weapons systems for the rails?

    Thirdly how muhc money do i need to give you to test the mod myself and keep testing it through devlopment (sadly that and making videos is about all i could do)? It


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  17. #157
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Super amazing!!!

    One thing about the demolosher. It should fire giant rockets, like a sturmtiger And also, are you sure about the size of the weapons on the tanks? Those heavy bolters sponsons look quite small.
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  18. #158
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Quote Originally Posted by silverstone08 View Post
    Also the thunderbolt was relaly cool but will (now that jets dlc is out) you try to implement at some poit the armament switching on it and multiple weapons systems for the rails?

    Thirdly how muhc money do i need to give you to test the mod myself and keep testing it through devlopment (sadly that and making videos is about all i could do)? It
    Yes armament switching and configurable pylons is 100% wanted. It takes quite a bit of time to implement it though. Since the implementation of this does not take years of practice (like modelling does) i'm focusing more on 3d atm, in the hopes people want to help that can (or dedicate the time to learn how to) set it up. There are many more such smaller task that need doing (e.g. optics and their calibration).

    So if you would like to dedicate some time to learn it (its just notepad++ and learning how the structure of the text files is) and have the motivation there is a place for you in development team (which is 1.05 people now currently instead of of 1.0 - improvement, yay)

    It should fire giant rockets, like a sturmtiger
    This is still to be tweaked. It will be like a "bolter" - small init charge for getting out of barrel and then rocket booster. Mostly effects work. And yes the weapons stay like this. Even in this state they are unrealistically large for what they should fire. Bolters on vehicles are modelled with 1.25 cal even. to at least somewhat explain discrepancy to tripod heavy bolter.
    Last edited by Keep; 22-08-2017 at 00:59.
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  19. #159
    Inquisitor Captain Brown's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    Wow,

    Great work there Keep.

    Cheers,

    CB

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  20. #160
    Chaplain Keep's Avatar
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    Re: Supension of disbelief suspended 3D

    So in the last months i've been thinking and concepting how buildings/ structures in general look and work on my chosen planet, what metrics are necessary for them to function as desired and how to create a model system that allows time effective creation of many assetts.
    This is quite a complex topic, which is a bit too much to go into full detail here.
    Part of the concepting also involves defensive structures (walls, fortifications, ...). I want my world to be believable and for that it requires it to function. This means i also had to consider which weapons these structures would have to withstand, and what weapons would possibly be used from inside them. Basically it meant, that i had to fill out the gap between infantry mortar and basilisk that i hadn't specified yet with the other common artillery weapons used in 40k, and extend it with common Siege weaponry. Currently this is how the list of potential artillery weapons looks.

    Infantry mortar (80mm, standard) - carried
    Platoon mortar (80mm, long) - carried
    Medium mortar (120mm) <made up> - on carriage or vehicle mounted (e.g. Centaur)
    Thudd gun [4x mortar] (100-120mm) - Field Artillery
    Heavy mortar (150-200mm) - Griffon and Field Artillery
    Gun Artillery (150-200mm) - Basilisk and Field Artillery
    Siege Howitzer (300mm) - Medusa and Field Artillery
    Bigger stuff (not featured)

    Another gap i need to fill eventually are the crew served "heavy" weapons like autocannons etc.

    here are two results of the tinkering and modelling that was involved in this process: Medusa WIP, and both Infantry mortars (short and long) finished without iconography but with functional sight unit
    Last edited by Keep; 01-11-2017 at 23:52.
    40k Realism 3D-Modellingproject. 40k: CSM(IW)- 3.2k; IG- 2.7k; Nids-2.5k; WHFB: WoC- 5k; DE- 5k

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