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Thread: Let's Fix Bretonnia

  1. #1
    Modinator Lord Dan's Avatar
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    Let's Fix Bretonnia

    With rumors of a new Bretonnian book on the horizon (somewhere...), I've been wondering what the best approach to fixing them could be. What are your thoughts, fellow cavalry commanders? What are Bretonnia's major issues in 8th edition? With their army list? How do you think GW will address those concerns, and what would you like to see them do?

  2. #2

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    I think that the major problem with hem is that they lack enough diversity. They are only best as a completely mounted force. They also lack anything fantastical about them, unit wise at least. Top that off they have one war machine. Their image of "classic" knights needs to be refurbished. Essentially they need to be he poster boys space marines for fantasy. Everyone thinks of knights in plate and the Bret's are not that. Like spare marines, knights have that iconic look. I say space marine the heck out of the Bret's, make them grizzled and move away from lighter chain mail armor to heavy plate.
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  3. #3

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Brets are fine as-is. All they really need is more diversity.

    Some things I'd like (or expect) to see:

    1) Characters in Peg Knight units

    2) Knights on foot.

    3) T4 Grails

    4) More access to rerolls all around

    5) More and better mount selection for lords (not that they'll ever use them, being better in a lance).

    6) Better lore access

    7) Usable special characters beyond the Green Knight.

  4. #4
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    I agree with PirateRobotNinjaofdeath on everything except #2. They need more types of infantry but a knight on foot is not a knight.

    New infantry options should include Chapel defenders(heavy armor and great swords), A robinhood type skirmishing scouts unit, peasant rabble(current M@A but with no gear), and give M@A regular human stats.

    Basic rules changes, ward save 5+ all the time.
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  5. #5
    Chapter Master Kakapo42's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    I actually think the big untapped source of new units for Bretonnia is the Grail Pilgrims. They could be expanded on much more. Add in more options for large plug-ins like the Reliquae (I'd give the option for a Mangonel that fires stones covered in Grail icons, giving a short-ranged small blast magical shooting attack). Add in a Battle Pilgrim character that can make Battle Pilgrims with a Grail Reliquae core (But not Battle Pilgrims with any other plug-ins). And before you say "But that would tread on the toes of Flagellants!" It wouldn't. They have their similarities, but they also have a lot of differences, both in ideologies, aesthetics and battlefield use (Flagellants are more focused on attack, Battle Pilgrims are more focused on defence), and there isn't any expansion of Flagellants.

    Then I'd add in a peasant character option. They could be the BSB, but would be a hero choice and could not be the army general.

    Then I'd throw in the obligatory new forms of Knight (I like the idea of a unit of Hospitaller Knights that aren't as good in combat as other Knights but give out defensive bonuses to nearby friendly units). And by the end of it it then should be possible to do an all-knight army, an all-peasant army led by a Knightly lord (clearly unable to gain the support of proper knightly forces), an all-Battle Pilgrim army, or any combination of the three.
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  6. #6
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    I agree with PirateRobotNinjaofdeath on everything except #2. They need more types of infantry but a knight on foot is not a knight.
    I think dishonored knights could work tho, eager to regain their honor so they can get back on the horse.
    Other then that the army needs more diversity, that's really it's main fault right now.
    And some ideas.
    1. Questing knights work a bit like Black Orcs, they got a arsenal of weapons with them which they get to choose which ones to use before CC.
    2. Grail knights need to be a bit cheaper or T4, they are almost gods afterall.
    3. Treb is no doubt getting nerf to a normal stone thrower but would be cool if it had different ammo to pick from.
    4. Impact hits on the charge, we got the heaviest horses around so giving them a impact hit makes sense.

  7. #7
    Chapter Master StygianBeach's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Brets are mostly fine. I would like
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateRobotNinjaofDeath View Post

    1) Characters in Peg Knight units

    2) Knights on foot.

    3) T4 Grails

    5) More and better mount selection for lords (not that they'll ever use them, being better in a lance).
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    A robinhood type skirmishing scouts unit
    Mounted Yeomen should be cheaper and LD 7. Men at Arms should have a name change to Peasant Militia with Men at Arms being an upgrade adding +1 WS and +1 Ld.

    Some sort of Ballister option would be good as well.

    Angel Monstrous Infantry? I guess that would be too much like Pegasus Knights. Half Ogre (Half Giant) Monstrous Infantry?

  8. #8

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    1 Make lance formation rules shorter, easier to understand.
    2 Fix vows: make them cheaper or give them boost. Now you pay for them, only to pay for better items.
    3 More special characters, 5th edicttion book had like 10. It is strange that realm known to be "land of heroes" has only 3 named characters.
    4 More characters: Bards (allow unit he join rerolling 1's or +1 to hit), peasant hero, some kind of paragon of virtues (can't be general but can select two virtues), cheap weak engineer (protects against misfire and allow peasant unit to entrench(similar to stakes), Lord from Parravon who has to be mounted on flying mount (can only be hit by missiles if he fail his mount initiative check).
    5 Lore of Lady. Defensive spells and buffs.
    6 Keep all limits (you have to have BSB, +1 Kotr unit, 0-1 pegs, 0-1 grails). Limits allow to make fluffy armies.
    7 Fix existing units. Grails with better blessing from vow (one way to fix this vow) and KB. They don't have to have better stats but they drastically need boost in killing and not being killed department. Quests should get scout or some ambush rule that allow them to appear from table edge. As someone who spend most time in woods searching for monsters to kill they shouldn't deploy with rest if army. M@A should get Ws3 and access to unit upgrade like hounds (when enemy is charging this unit you can relise hounds to substract D3 from their charging distance). Battle pilglims should be cheaper and simmilar to Kakapo42 ideas. Peg knights should be cheaper and allow characters to join them. Trebs should keep S5 but should be more expensive.
    8 New units:
    Hippogryph knights in rare. I know that this diminish lord but GW will produce large centerpiece for army and it is best if it was in fluff. Otherwise we get demichickens. Give lord royal version and we are fix.

    Peasant levy, stats like current M@A but without equipment and with flaming attacks from torches.

    Dishonored knights equipment (so mounted) and stats as Kotr, but instead of blessing they have hatred. Because they were stripped from titles and rights they wander through Bretonnia seeking chance to prove themselves worthy. Because they don't have titles they shouldn't have crest on barding and because they travel a lot they should have bags strapped to horses. Because of that they would make ideal dual kit for questing knights.

    Defenders of the Realm- knights who were too busy to begun their quest from many reasons, some must protect their land, others just don't want to. Staying longer on their domains they accumulated enough wealth to buy best weapons and armor. Knight vow, full plate armor, morning star and some fancy special rule that show their defensive aspect. This could be nice dual kit with grail knights. All you need is to hide armor under a coat and swap heads and hands.

    Fay Spirits- Really expensive ethereal cavalry. If VC can have Ethereal fast cav, then why we don't get normal one? Stats and equipment of Errant knight, terror, no ward save and can still use lance formation.


    Ballista - Weaker, immobile bolt thrower. S5 no D3 wounds but still piercing through ranks.

  9. #9
    Chapter Master duffybear1988's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    I think GW slipped up when they put the Demigriffon knights in the Empire army. They seem like an almost perfect fit for Bretonnians.

  10. #10
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveW View Post
    I agree with PirateRobotNinjaofdeath on everything except #2. They need more types of infantry but a knight on foot is not a knight.
    There were plenty of Knights in the Crusades that didn't have a horse?

    Anyway,
    Much like what a lot of people have said already, more infantry.

    1. Knights on foot, I'm talking full plate, sword and kite shield or DHW. (I want this so bad for the Empire as well!)

    2. Skirmishing Light cav with Crossbows, I know the idea of winding a Xbow on horseback is tough but look! (Here is a tiny image that proves it happened! :/...Not sarcasm) http://tnypic.net/bavzw.jpg

    3. Pavise Crossbowmen! (+1 SV vs non-magical missile fire)

    4. Naptha Throwers? (I know clutching at straws there but it'd be cool so shhh)

  11. #11

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Bretonnia need quite some work:

    - Option to make an all peasant army or an all knights one. (Peasant army is fun and fluffy!!)
    - Damsels and Prophetess able to use: Heavens, Beasts, Life and Light. Maybe lore of the lady too.
    - Blessing should work like Mark of Tzench but be regen(6+ stackable regen). (No need to remember the STR, its less complicated, no need of record who lost it and prevents combos of 2+ ward saves)
    - Questing vow, as now and make you able to use whatever weapon you have. So Questing Knights can choose between sword and board or 2handed.
    - Grail vow as now and improves blessing to 5+ regen and +1LD.
    - Knights cannot decline challenges.
    - Lance formation should be: Bretonian mounted knights count as MC when forming formations, so only 3 models to make a line and horde with 6.
    - Lance formation gives Devastating Charge.
    - Heroes no longer go on front line, they get protected like a damsel, except if challenged.(You can always not buy a champion if you want it on the front line)
    - Remake of virtues.
    - Damsels, prophetess and Grail vow heroes/lords, get blessings of the lady (Something like chaos gifts but good: Holy Strike, Radiant Light...etc)

    New plastic Hero:
    - Faceless, (Peasant Hero, or dis-guessed knight ala robin hood), Ld7 (cannot use heavy armor, or horse, neither magic armor ) Gets the blessing. Option to be outlaw( gains strider and scout but he loses peasant duty).

    New plastic Hero:
    - Troubadour Hero, Songs are like bound spells at 5+, but only one can be tried cast each turn by the troubador. If miscast that song cannot be sang again for the rest of the battle.
    Song of Duty: Unit gains stubborn
    Heroic Song of Gilles: Unit gains +1S
    Ballad of the Lady: Unit gains +1regen.

    New plastic Kit:
    - Faith-bringers: Grail maidens mounted on unicorns (imagine DE warlocks but for Bretonnia - Can cast Wildform and Shem's or something from lore of lady)
    Fast Cav, Unicorns, Deepwood unicorn stats: 5+ Wardsave. Damsels MR1.

    New plastic Dual Kit:
    Trebuchet
    Giant Ballista: Bolt Thrower with flaming option and S8 1D6 wounds

    New plastic Dual Kit:
    Mounted Questing Knights
    Mounted Grail Knights

    Can be made with current bowmen or dual kit with Grial Pilgrims:
    Brigands: Outlaws who cannot use knights LD but have scout and skirmish. Use longbow, and place stakes. If Faceless with them they get the blessing and re-roll psyche tests.

    New plastic Dual Kit:
    Shrine of the Lady
    Grial Reliquae

    New plastic Dual kit:
    Crusader's: Knights Errants on foot with sword and board or morning stars with shields. Can take magic banner up to 25 points.
    Defenders of the Sacred sites: Fey knights on foot with Two handed weapons.(More or less Green knight rules)

    That would make me and Bretonnia happy.
    Last edited by Kravenon; 17-01-2014 at 12:58.

  12. #12

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    I've always thought bretonnia should be considered as more 'offensive' knights, while the empire and their full-plate shenanigans should be considered more 'defensive' knights. Their roles should be represented in the army too, so peasants should be the more defensive units and the knights the more offensive ones (which seems backwards based on smell).

    Lords need more mounted options, for sure. I think that's a given, but horse, heavy-cav, monster, Pegasus would cover the bases pretty well.

    With that in mind, I think the knights should keep the 2+ AS, while the lance should be buffed a bit via devastating charge (it's just fluffy, and rather logical). This makes getting charged by a lance a scary event, and would prevent rubber lance syndrome most of the time. Along the same lines, I think the blessing should be given as a regen save, and vary according to the location of the knight along his pilgrimage (Errant none, KotR 6+, Questing 5+, Grail 4+?). This, along with minor tweeks, should get the knights where they need to be.

    The peg knights are awesome, fluff-wise and game-wise, so with some minor adjustments they should stay as they are.

    There needs to be a unit of heavy cav - in this case I believe monstrous cav would work. I personally would see them as slower moving, devastating units (think the lance hits, then peels off, then the heavy cav hits). Think of it as serving the role as a chariot for bretonnia, without being a chariot (so impact hits). I think you could go with hypogryph knights (but this is similar to empire demi knights), or perhaps push in a new direction (exactly which I'm not sure). I thought for a while about a monster or two acting as cav, but that doesn't seem bretonnian enough to me.

    Add another unit of fast cav peasants (or adjust the existing), and you have a viable mounted army. I don't think the fast cav should be that great, honestly, as the knights should be the mounted key to the army, not like the DE fast cav. But they should be viable, of course.

    The peasants need a bit of work in my mind. They either get very cheap, or they get buffed. I'm on the cheap side (fluff-wise it makes more sense), but I can see both sides. I can see them getting the ability to be outfitted with spear/shield or halberd/shield, coupled with light armor, pretty much as they are now. Then there could be a unit buffer, like the grail req, which offers defensive buffs to the foot troops, via bound spells. The same could be offered to the knights via a troubadour (I like that idea from above), but you'd have to give those bound spells an offensive bent (flaming, hatred, reroll wounds).

    A unit of scouting peasants makes sense (like empire archers), and I'd like to see cheap, throw-away battle pilgrims too. This way you'd have your scouts, and your defensive troops, and then your more throw-away fodder. You keep the archers as you have them (maybe crossbows?). Given a variety of weapon options for your core trooper, you'd have a decently fun army.

    For warmachines, the treb (basic rock thrower) and a bolt thrower would work sufficiently I believe. Bring them in line points-wise with other armies and you have a decent backfield.

    Magic should always come from the ladies/damsels - I'm not sure the idea of mounted females on unicorns works (visually or fluff-wise) - why wouldn't the knights form up around them to protect them? Maybe revision them, and make the unicorns hard-core and put them into the monstrous-cavalry selection, ridden by knights? eh... I'm not sure about that. Or you can develop that idea to fit into the knight units as cheap knight buffs (like the empire priests, but sufficiently different).

    Anyway, the majority of these ideas are an attempt to take the current army, modernize it, and add a few units to round out the army selection, while giving a variety of playstyles (based off the cav/infantry dynamic). My concern is always keeping it sufficiently separate from the empire (visually and game-wise), and I think these changes attempt to do that, without radically changing the army list as a whole (I think it performs quite well now, honestly).
    Last edited by Y'he Sha'is; 17-01-2014 at 13:30.
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  13. #13
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Why are people obsessed with changing Brets? Aside from a bit more diversity when it comes to Special choices, everything works fine. Vows are groovey. Good magic. Lots of magic items. Ignore the interwebz bleating, Bretonnians are a perfectly feasible army that can be played in a variety of ways. As for buffing Men at Arms because they seem incredibly underpowered? Ever try chewing through 40 to 50 of them while a damsel casts life magic or Wyssan's on them

    Leave the Brets alone.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    We have Monstrous Cav already, probably need a points drop, though.

    No monstrous infantry, that doesn't really fit in the army.

    I agree with more access to magic for Damsels and Prophetesses.

    Less magic items is a given. If they retain vows then they need something like a copy paste of Red Fury (no magic weapons is fine as well). Also, drop the silly points increase for vows.

    And as for the big kit... Perhaps a mounted character on say a hippogryph in rare...

    We have always needed dragon slaying plate armored knights, it just fits so well.

    Oh, keep the blessing and avoid changing peasant bowmen.

    Edit

    FOR THE LOVE OF THE LADY, KEEP CANNONS AND BLACK POWDER OUT OF BRETONNIA

    Edit 2

    Dual Kit Dragon Slayers/Grail Knights
    Dual Kit Hypogryph Lord/Knight
    Dual Kit Mounted Yeoman/Mercenary

    Pegasus Knights remove the 0-1
    KotR remove the 1+

    Lords
    3 special characters, Lord, Prophetess

    Heroes
    2 special characters, Paladin, Damsel, Peasant choice with special rules

    Core
    KE, KotR, Men at Arms, Peasant Bowmen, Mounted Yeomen

    Special
    Pegasus Knights, Questing Knights, Grail Relique, Mercenaries, Dragon Slayers, Skirmishing Bowmen

    Rare
    Treb, Grail Knights, Hippogryph Knight
    Last edited by Archon of Death; 22-01-2014 at 04:22.

  15. #15
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    What the Brets need is a good revolution - a "few" guillotined nobles and a grand army led by some short dude in a funny hat.

    No more lance formation, no more "what should we do with all the peasants?" comments and who needs magic when you can bring "field guns", "riflemen" and "Cavalry" as core.

    or is that a bit too much?

  16. #16
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    For the love of god keep guns out of it. We have armies with cannons and guns, keep them out of the brets

  17. #17
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Quote Originally Posted by boli View Post
    What the Brets need is a good revolution - a "few" guillotined nobles and a grand army led by some short dude in a funny hat.

    No more lance formation, no more "what should we do with all the peasants?" comments and who needs magic when you can bring "field guns", "riflemen" and "Cavalry" as core.

    or is that a bit too much?
    So in other words, Empire ?
    Yeah, Bretonnia should never have guns except maybe a highly unstable cannon.

  18. #18

    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    3 words

    Wooden
    Siege
    Rabbit.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    Put the rest of the peasants/squires from the 5e book into the current mix, shake up a few point costs, give Grails *something,* freshen up the background, and call it a day. They don't need some ridiculous "newcron" style re-write and they certainly don't need people pulling characteristics out that have been around to one degree or other for two books now. A bit more emphasis on the *influence* of Lady and other fey-folk maybe, but they don't need a demigryph analogue (pegasi do pretty well for "fanciful unit mounts" and a properly adjusted hippo would do for characters)... Brets shouldn't so much bring a whole host of fanciful pets/toys as they should show up and slay/break everyone else's.

  20. #20
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    Re: Let's Fix Bretonnia

    While I agree that they don't need some big pet and new toys, they're getting a big kit. It's almost a 100% since GW has been giving them to EVERYONE. The real question is what will that be.

    I've wanted to see dragon slaying knights in shining armour in the Brets for a long time, hence hoping they'll do it. Some kind of Knight with fullplate style armour and maybe special rules against flaming attacks and for killing monsters.

    Bards, unicorns, and mercenaries have always fit with the theme of Brets, and they could use a unit of Robin Hoods. Grail Knights could use a buff and corresponding point increase, while the prayer and lance need to remain
    Last edited by Archon of Death; 17-01-2014 at 16:38.

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