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Thread: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

  1. #1
    Chaplain najo's Avatar
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    Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Warhammer fantasy is my favorite game. I've played it since 3rd edition (yes, hardbound book before they started doing starter box sets). I love 8th edition. Its my most favorite edition so far. But, its also been the most divisive. Potentional customers can't easily start playing and some players, especially inexperienced ones, have trouble getting over the learning curve. In my opinion, these are the three things warhammer fantasy needs to accomplish to grow again while keeping the system growth of 8th.

    1) Make leadership tests slightly less reliable. Right now, it seems fear is nearly pointless, march blocking rarely happens, steadfast and stubborn rarely fail. The main issue is inspiring presence and hold your ground, plus an abundance of unmodified leadership. The game's morale effects rarely come into play. Problem is the two rules that are the main culprits (IP and HYG) totally make sense they way they are implemented.

    2) The game needs streamlining and less cross referencing of special rules. There are too many conditional modifiers and over complication in some of the rules that make warhammer fantasy difficult to learn. Examples include unit types (what can stomp, what can fast reform, what makes dangerous terrain checks). The plethora of special rules that could be simplified without losing depth. Movement options for regiments. All these things are easy for veterans, but really overwhelming for new players.

    3) The game needs playable with warbands up to full armies. I've always felt GW missed the boat with Mordhiem. They need to stop making miniatures that can only be used in specific games. Imagine starter boxes for each army in fantasy battle that run 35-45$. They come with exclusive miniatures that make ideal heroes, champions etc for a normal army. Then imagine entry level warband rules that teaches the basics, has rules for campaigning in the appendix and allows players to build warbands for each army. Then, just add a couple of fantasy regiment boxes to your warband and you have a roughly 500pt army. The point is, easy starting points, ability to experiment with different armies and their play styles and a version of the game both new and old players can do together that takes little time or money.

    Any rate, Warhammer solves these three issues and it regains customers IMHO. So my question to all of you, how would you handle these things? Unless you don't agree, then what would you change?
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Here's what I would change:

    Steadfast based on rank bonus, not ranks. Steadfast is negated by flank/recharges.

    Stonethrowers ALWAYS deviate. Cannons reduce strength by one for each rank the ball bounces through (like a bolt thrower). (I'm not sure about this last one, but there needs to be some reduction in the effectiveness of canons ... They are simply too good as is. I'm open to ideas for this ...)

    Retreating through an enemy formation (in good order) results in the destruction of the fleeing unit.

    Reduce the effectiveness of many of the spells. You know which ones. Magic resistance works as a ward against ANY spell.


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  3. #3
    Chapter Master Sexiest_hero's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    I'd change player attitudes.
    "I got 99 troubles but a tribble ain't one!"

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    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sexiest_hero View Post
    I'd change player attitudes.
    This.

    A billion times this.

    This is the fourth thread in two days with ideas (not very good ones IMHO) about changing the rules of the game when they aren't broken.

    The 8th Ed rules work like a charm from 500 points to 10.000 points and higher.

    Steadfast works, and is a LOSING strategy, if you count on Steadfast, you've already lost the game.

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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    I do like eighth ed. I do think artillery and spell casting is overpowered. I would like to see both of those knocked back a little. I do think players attitudes can always be better. That's not a function of the game, though.


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  6. #6

    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    1) Your enemy's seemingly iron morale bringing yours down a notch? Take death magic, drop their leadership with doom and darkness, spirit leech, or caress their BSB and see how long the little brave bastards stick around.

    2) OP, your observation is accurate. The rules do need to be streamlined, but lets hope GW doesn't go overboard for 9th edition.

    3) I am confident GW will have some sort of warband focused game system built into 9th edition, to combat Warmahordes if nothing else.
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  7. #7

    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    But if you doom and darkness then you have to have the discussion about modifiable "unmodified leadership" and general IP leadership passing.

    It makes sense to apply it after everything, but so many people argue about it. Comes up more if they are using mindrazor

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    Chapter Master Snake1311's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    1) staying in the bubble isn't actually that easy if you have a big army; and this paints big targets on the heads of the general and the BSB (as it should be)

    2) the rules are being streamlined. May not feel like it, beacuse the BRB is as thick as ever, but there is way less stuff to remember in the individual army books themselves - plus, the books tie in between each other (All elves have ASF; magic lores are the same between armies, etc)

    3) the game actually works fine at 500 pts, which is a battalion/starter and a hero (bought or converted from battalion contents)
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Mi biggest concern from 7th edition onwards, past the obvious intention of making rules aimed to sell more and more miniatures, is the absurd amount of special rules. It's got to the point where your average infantry unit has three to six special rules, most of them absolutely unnecesary.

    I have a few issues with 8th edition core rules, but IMO the biggest problem lies in the armybooks.

  10. #10
    Chaplain najo's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    I bring up these issues because they are real. Fantasy's sales are down and armies are larger than ever. This means number of new players are down. War machine is part of the reason for this. With out losing what 8th got right, we need to add streamlined rules, warband level play and easy entry points and scaling.
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  11. #11
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by najo View Post
    With out losing what 8th got right, we need to add streamlined rules, warband level play and easy entry points and scaling.
    Which 8e already covers.
    You have no idea that Fantasy sales are down since GW never tell us that.
    In my area Fantasy is growing while 40k is losing ground.

  12. #12
    Chapter Master theunwantedbeing's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by najo View Post
    1) Make leadership tests slightly less reliable.
    Agreed, the BSB doesn't need to let players re-roll every leadership test. Just Break and Rally tests, nothing else.
    Steadfast ideally shouldn't benefit from Inspiring Presence either, or allow you have a better chance to do combat reforms or similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by najo View Post
    2) The game needs streamlining and less cross referencing of special rules.
    The game needs to be better written, with the rules easier to locate.
    We could have a lot more special rules than currently if everything wasn't so shoddily written and it would be much easier for new players to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by najo View Post
    3) The game needs playable with warbands up to full armies.
    It already is, the only issue is how magic doesn't scale with the army size.
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Sexiest_hero View Post
    I'd change player attitudes.
    the hero creature is this one's hero for the day.

  14. #14

    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Steadfast changes to work on rank bonus rather than ranks.
    Units should be more affected by flank and rear attacks, perhaps ld reduction even to steadfast unit.
    True Los is bad. BAD
    The rulebook is badly laid out and written. I got a mate of mine into thr game and have been suprised at the rate this clever guy has learnt at. There should be ways of emphasising more important rules and colour coding the different sections to allow a less muddled experience.

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    Chapter Master Alltaken's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorcryst View Post
    This.

    A billion times this.

    This is the fourth thread in two days with ideas (not very good ones IMHO) about changing the rules of the game when they aren't broken.

    The 8th Ed rules work like a charm from 500 points to 10.000 points and higher.

    Steadfast works, and is a LOSING strategy, if you count on Steadfast, you've already lost the game.

    Wrong! Magic doesnt scale well at all. 8th has a lot to improve yet, but its still great

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    Chapter Master Lorcryst's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Alltaken View Post
    Wrong! Magic doesnt scale well at all. 8th has a lot to improve yet, but its still great

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    Aaaah yes, I tend to forget that my "magiclite" gaming group is not the norm ... that said, I think it's only the BRB Lores that need toning down, the Lore of Nurgle for my Daemons or the Little Waaagh for my Night Goblins don't really have "überspells of doom" that can win the game in a single casting.
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    Chapter Master Urgat's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by theunwantedbeing View Post
    Steadfast ideally shouldn't benefit from Inspiring Presence either
    I'll just post an example:


    1. You take 20 night gobs (minimum sized, no evil aim at making the most steadfasty unit ever). But it works with any unit that is low ld, whatever the size, they just need to outrank the enemy by one.
    2. They're charged by, dunno, 5 knights. Who cares? They only need to be outranked and win by 1.
    3. Hop, the gobs are steadfast, they didn't try to be steadfast, they're minimum sized, but there you go, they outrank the knights, so they're steadfast. They are very happy, if they lose the combat, they test on unmodified Ld regardless of combat result. That's cool, like stubborn little gobs, right?
    4. They obviously lose combat, because that's what goblins usually do, unless they fight some similar kind of chaff.
    5. So they take their break test on... you allow BSB reroll? Ah, no, you don't, you said "either". So they test on Ld5. Ah, but it's unmodified Ld5!
    6. Regardless of my enthusiasm, the gobs run. Let's say you're being magnanimous and BSB reroll is allowed? They run anyway, most likely. Because, you know, rerollable Ld5. Because they get punished for being charged by a smaller unit. Ah! If they'd been only 9 strong! If the knights had been 25 strong! If only they had not outranked the enemy! Maybe they would have held thanks to IP, but being more numerous is bad, m'k?


    Solution 1) to prevent that, you have to put heroes in every unit. Supadupa awesome. MSU back, and herohammer back, and cavalry ownzor back, and chaff gone. I forgot something? Ah yeah, deathstars rule supreme, with the BSB, general, all in one nice package so that for that one time, steadfast actually works for you. I love the sound of that WFB "houserule" edition already.
    Solution 2) whevener a unit with no ranks threatens to charge them, the unit should redeploy to 1 rank, 20 wide (poor sods that don't run MSU, I pity you). Because you REALLY don't want to be steadfast, obviously. Yes I was being facetious before, if you couldn't tell.
    Solution 3) you shelve all your units that have ranks and low Ld, because they're screwed with anything that's killy and has less ranks than yours (cavalry, MC, MI, monsters, lone heroes. Woot for balance swing).
    Solution 4) For the love of Gork and Mork, enough with that ludicrous suggestion? Forbidding IP to steadfast units equals turning steadfast into a malus.

    edit: I'm going to put that post in my sig and point to it from now on, I'm fed up with typing it.
    Last edited by Urgat; 14-06-2014 at 17:57.

  18. #18
    Chapter Master theunwantedbeing's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    Quote Originally Posted by Urgat View Post
    I'll just post an example:
    I agree which is why I said steadfast, not steadfast units.

    Here's an example of how it would work:
    Upon losing combat you either
    1. Take the test on your own unmodified leadership if you are steadfast
    2. Take the test on the generals modified leadership through inspiring presence
    Pick whichever makes the unit most likely to pass the test

    So losing by 2pts with a leadership 9 general nearby means either a ld7 test, or a ld5 steadfast test.
    Last edited by theunwantedbeing; 14-06-2014 at 17:59.
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  19. #19
    Chapter Master Urgat's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    I fail to see the distinction. When steadfast applies, it leads to steadfast units. Or maybe I'm really dense?

    edit: saw your own edit.
    So in, short, you allow IP, and steadfast kicks in when Ld goes down to the unit's own Ld?
    That still makes chaff worthless against anything killy, really. Nobody would bother fielding them, and we'd go back to 7th ed.
    Last edited by Urgat; 14-06-2014 at 18:36.

  20. #20
    Chaplain najo's Avatar
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    Re: Three things needed to fix Warhammer

    There are way too many special rules. There is to much cross referencing. The game doesnts scale below 500 points well, nor does it give a place veteran and new players can play together. New players have to spend hundreds of dollars to just start playing at the 500 point level. All of these things together make entry into fantasy difficult. This drives players to other games, namely war machine. Warhammer needs a way to prevent this while not losing the game it has grown into. I love 8th edition, I think it needs some tweaking here and there, but as a whole its the best edition of the game yet. The main issue is how the game takes a new player, gets them into playing and then grows them into full army/ player. That journey is overwhelming for them right now.

    And for the record, I like steadfast and know it needs to be in the game nearly as it is. The main issue is that its impossible to remove when some one goes overboard on the unit size and there is nothing you can do to counter it tactically. It leads to either a) redirecting the unit all game or b) throwing everything you have at it. Both situations are not very fun. It'd be nice to have other options to solve this from happening with out those units losing their unmodified break tests. I don't know the easy answer.
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