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Thread: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

  1. #1
    Why is the rum gone? Darnok's Avatar
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    Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    If you like Warhammer, I suggest you better take a seat.

    Over the last few months I got a few glimpses on what WHF could change to in the very near future. I have collected messages, asked questions, and tried to form a somewhat coherent picture. The one thing I believe by now is: Warhammer in its current form will no longer be supported by GW. It will be transformed into something else, with everything built up in background and most of the model range being kicked out of the door.

    To give you an insight into some of the messages I got, have a look at the following. Please note that I am paraphrasing at times, and have cut out (hopefully) everything that could lead to the original identities of my friendly birdies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy
    - 9th Edition to pick up where the ET leaves off in fluff, plus a couple of hundred years or so (to reboot the setting).

    - The Warhammer World gets shattered on a dimensional level during the climax of the ET. No more "map of the Old World" - it's now little bubbles of reality, where pockets of civilisation try desperately to eke a living before the next collision with another bubble, which may be full of Chaos. (To address the problem of "how come my Tomb Kings of Khemri are fighting against Wood Elves from Athel Loren?", not that I get the impression that either of those will still exist, but you get the idea)

    - New faction... heavily armoured, religious, "good" human warriors fighting with the power of the gods. (Warhammer Space Marines, basically). Karl Franz Ascended seems to be the prototype or precursor for this concept, AFAICT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Birdy
    9th edition will have 6 factions. Model diversity cut in half shelf space. New world and new age so current factions and lore aren't recognizable at all. Each new faction has like 3 core units that will always be on the shelf. Much faster releases of stuff, mainly characters and special units of 2-5 fancy models (like Morghasts) that have their own rules right in the box, so not dependent on a static army book. Many of the these non-core models are only available for a limited time (say 6 months to a year), so they don't take up shelf space forever and ever. Many existing models are not usable in 9th.
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy #3
    We can expect the next edition of Fantasy to throw everything up in the air. The whole End Times move has been to wean people onto a whole new take on the Warhammer world and it's going to start with every army being "chaosified". We can expect army play styles and appearance to change quite dramatically and there will be a whole load of new models being released early on to tie everything together. This has caused quite a stir back at GW HQ as there are a lot of people behind the scenes (some of which are very well known to us) who don't like the changes that have been made. I have also been told that the models due to be released are some of the best to date!
    Add to that (and by "Birdy Prime" I mean my best source so far):

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy Prime
    '9th' [or] whatever is next for fantasy [...] coming 2015 in the summer. The new faction [plus] future releases after this point for five 'existing' factions (which plus this would make six) […] but I think there will be [...] more.
    As you can see, it will be drastic. It seems like those „Spanish rumours“ might have had some more flesh on them than I thought: I am by now sorry for my sometimes nasty words about them. And despite my remorse about ever mentioning it, I think my statement about a „ragestorm of epic proportions“ could have been correct after all.

    Harry chimed in with a summary of what he had said on this topic in the past (thanks!):

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    About six months .... but i first heard about ita good six months before I posted that.
    Sometimes it is not all that cryptic .....

    I tried to find some of my old posts about this. i have posted about this 6 months, 12 months and 18 months ago. But many of my recent posts have been deleted.???

    In the end I had to go find some of what I had said on BOLS Forum where Big red had quoted me from here. (Thanks Red)



    OK, here's one for you .....

    Chaos Vs "Humans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Tozudos a Dieces:
    I've just read The fall of Altdorf.

    OMG.

    At least fluff-wise, nothing's gonna be again the same. It all will change. All.

    Harry: You are not wrong there fella. That is what I have been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludaman:
    Awesome! Thanks Harry! I may be way off, but that sounds like the contents of a new starter Box to me.

    Harry: We have been playing this game together for too many years.


    Big Red: So first up, Harry called the End Times and Glottkin by name over 6 months out. So when he says something, you should take it as much more serious than garden variety rumors.

    This insinuation of new boxed sets and unified "Human" factions all feeds back into Harry's earlier speculation on GW utterly shattering the game with the End Times series, to produce a very different environment and game on the other side of the series.

    After months of absence, the BEST rumormonger out there returns to talk about the End Times of Warhammer Fantasy:

    Harry's BACK from the wilderness!


    Harry: You may remember last year I was being very vague about some 'radical changes' in a thread about 9th edition.

    Back at the start of the year, in one of my first posts of the new year I said this:

    I don't think they are trying to destroy it.
    I suspect they will be trying their hardest to breath new life into it.
    We are not seeing the "End times" for Warhammer just yet.

    Did you see what I did there?
    The clues are always there fellas.

    So I first heard about all this last autumn?
    I was told 2014 would be "Year zero" for Warhammer.

    Had no idea what that meant at first but if you Google your way to the wikipedia you get this:

    The term Year Zero, applied to the takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 by the Khmer Rouge, is an analogy to the Year One of the French Revolutionary Calendar. During the French Revolution, after the abolition of the French monarchy (September 20, 1792), the National Convention instituted a new calendar and declared the beginning of the Year I. The Khmer Rouge takeover of Phnom Penh was rapidly followed by a series of drastic revolutionary de-industrialization policies resulting in a death toll that vastly exceeded that of the French Reign of Terror.

    The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions within a society must be completely destroyed or discarded and a new revolutionary culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All history of a nation or people before Year Zero is deemed largely irrelevant, as it will (as an ideal) be purged and replaced from the ground up.

    It was made clear to me that this was what we were talking about for warhammer.
    Everything that existed being completely destroyed (or discarded) and something new replacing it from scratch ... purged and replaced from the ground up.

    I hinted in various posts that they would be getting rid of the existing timeline, the existing map, etc. (In an effort to soften the blow. )

    I am going to get this a bit wrong because I honestly can't remember where I heard it but to confirm the three book rumour .... I did hear the "End times" were going to be spread over three books.

    Nagash was the first, followed by Malekith followed by Glotkin

    Good luck with that!


    ...You have to ask yourself .... What will remain of the world as we know it when it has been ravaged in turn by the Undead, the Dark Elves, Skaven, and Chaos?


    ...Whatever 9th is it will be set in the grimmest, darkest post apocalyptic Warhammer fantasy world yet.

    You think I haven't had all the same thoughts being voiced on here?

    I can't see them throwing out everything they have done either ... but the only way to own the IP is to loose all the generic Fantasy that other companies can copy ... normal Dwarves, Elves and sure as heck you have to get rid of the historical based human armies ... or you can go build an Empire or Bretonnian army from anyone's miniatures.
    I can't see them getting rid of any armies either ... but they can not continue to support all of them so some of them have to go or some get mashed together.
    I can't see them wanting to reduce the number of minis you need .... but if it costs too much to complete an army people don't even start an army ...so is it better to sell some minis for a scaled down game or no minis? Is it better to ramp up the Lords and monsters allowance and keep on selling the big kits so an army is 'more tanks and less infantry' and thus less minis and easier to paint .... or sell no minis.
    Simple fact is so many people have so many armies now unless they do something drastic with the look of the armies no-one is buying enough minis. The only way to force folks to buy new stuff is if we cannot use our current stuff. Some folks may refuse to buy the new stuff on principal ..... what do they care? They were not buying the stuff anyway as they already had their army. Imagine how badly Fantasy must be selling compared to 40K if anyone even thought about knocking it on the head for even a moment .... they must be thinking .... it can't make things any worse!!! What have we got to loose??? But if they are doing this why even bother completing 8th edition? Why do all the books?

    I have been around and around with this in my head ..... the only thing that makes any sense to me at the end of the day is that 8th edition is complete enough and robust enough to endure a bit longer and 9th edition will not be a complete new edition of the rules .... but an alternative background and rules with which to play post End times battles but you still need the core rules to play A bit like all the stuff in Strom of Magic was an add on to the existing rules. The core rules and books will still exist for those that want to remain stuck in the timeline but if you want to be down with the cool kids you really need to buy the new post End Times stuff.




    I don't know what else I can add to this.
    I don't have all the answers.

    But for what its worth .... I think it will be round bases.
    First said that on here more than 18 months ago .... when someone guessed close to the mark talking about WFB becoming a skirmish game.
    And the guys'n'gals over at Faeit posted the following, also matching with many of the tidbits above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Faeit
    via a very solid source on Faeit 212
    Let me give you some confirmation:
    The setting is being completely overhauled - true.
    The concept of a huge chunks of the world in a sea similar to the warp from 40k - true.
    Faction reduction to 6 - true


    As for how it interacts with the current rules.
    9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.

    So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).

    You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.

    You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."


    All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.

    Support will be towards the new book, new setting, however, with End Times being in the past. Viable, but not current.

    Expect armies to have fewer units in their core books, which will be heavily focused on the fluff for where they are now, what they've been doing in the centuries immediately following the sundering. This will create a more "balanced" pool as they will be rapidly produced and released (consider a scale even somewhat faster than what we've had for 40k these past few years).


    These will then be expanded on with supplements, not intended as money-grabs (as I am sure they will be received by the majority of your readers), but more as guided hands to acknowledge deficiencies in books, or even "global meta" changes. The first time that Games Workshop will be openly acknowledging things that need changes.

    These units will typically get white dwarf rules treatments heralding the release in hardback of all of the new units from the previous month(s), for a new setting expansion, which will pit several of the races together (representing a collision).

    As these expansions are not permanent in the world, so too will these models not be. They are intended to only get one template injection mold life-run, the same as the books will be printed only once in hardback, then delayed paperback.

    They will of course remain legal throughout all of 9th, they will just be more limited eventually, the same as the end time models will not be available forever, the same as XYZ model is no longer available (just with a shorter life span than previous experienced). I mean... you can't get albion models anymore either, but that campaign was before people whined on the internet, so I guess that's why no one's complaining.

    This will allow for more new models, as contrary to common belief, the storage and rejuvenation of these templates takes a lot of resources which can be instead dedicated to new ones.


    On the topic of round bases. The latest version I saw used round bases, but units had the option of ranking up to receive the typical bonuses. To rank up using round bases, it is intended to use new movement trays which have circular cuts to hold the bases of the appropriate size.

    Nothing stops you from (and in many ways you are encouraged to) maintain unit formation the entire game. But you don't have to. Note that throughout all of Warhammer Fantasy, changing width/depth was an option, it's just rarely seen.

    So to summarize - you can skirmish, but it's in your interests to rank up for different reasons, like shield walling before a charge for instance. You can alternatively always hold a formation and move the way we're all used to.

    ----

    This will be a very big change. It is not because GW doesn't care about its old players and just wants to attract new ones. It is not to fill a void that will come from the fading of Lord of the Rings (which will remain in stores and be supported for a long time due to the agreement with New Line Cinemas).

    It is just a very fresh look at a game that hasn't changed dramatically in how it's played since the dawn of the game and company. It will give everyone the opportunity and hopefully inspiration to do something new, but without invalidating everything from the past. It is opening room for creativity, not closing doors.


    Yes, army books will eventually feel too out of date to play, but that's the same with any new edition. And new Army Books will typically allow people to recreate what they're "used to" it just might not be the most effective thing they could do with their new book.

    The new faction are basically the opposite of warriors of chaos, but good the way chaos marines are the opposite of space marines but evil (in terms of broad tropes, I really hope this doesn't spawn some kind of debate about the morality of space marines).

    Lastly, nothing stops you from just playing 8th, and ignoring 9th the same way some people ignore End Times. Just understand that unlike Storm of Chaos which was post-production looked at as an "alternate timeline" where the clock was turned back to right before it took place for the purposes of the setting, the End Times are real, and 9th will begin where it left off.
    As far as release dates are concerned:

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamatoMusashi View Post
    Saw this posted on CDO. Cannot vouch for its accuracy/authenticity, but:

    Something very big will happen in May. This is certain. A couple of times every year the GW stores get a 'yellow date'. The shop may only be closed is the manager personally calls GW HQ and comes with a very good argument. These dates are for seriously major releases and employees can't really get the day off.

    In May there is a 'red date'. That means the store can be closed for no reason what so ever. And employees can't get that day off. So it most be something really huge. They don't know what however. But my mate at GW has only tried very few 'red dates'.

    First End Times was yellow.
    Sounds like 9th Ed in May, if this is legit... a slightly more accurate estimate than "summer".
    I've heard about 9th hitting in April. Either way, a bit earlier than I had guessed a few weeks ago.

    This whole thing will turn out to be either correct or not in less than six months. Hopefully we can get over our worst emotions until then.


    P.S.: I have sat on most of this since right before Christmas, but decided I didn't want to ruin anybodies holidays. I also had high hopes for somebody relieving me from this stuff... but that hope was lost.
    Last edited by Darnok; 09-01-2015 at 16:15. Reason: Adding Harrys comments.

  2. #2
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Thank you for the news. I mean...what a change (genuinely)
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hatl View Post
    ALL SHALL FALL BEFORE THE ENDLESS CRUSADE! HERESY IS WEAKNESS! HUMANITY SHALL PREVAIL, WITH THE EMPROR'S WILL AS ITS STANDARD AND WATCHWORD! ONWARD, MY BROTHERS!

    Seriously, if you're such a **** that you need a Chaos god to back you up in any fight you enter you deserve to get murdered. Real men do it by force of their own badass. And don't even get me started on those weak-ass mother **** psyker witch losers.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master Malagor's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    I will stick with 8e then.

  4. #4
    Primark of the Deaf Gourd duffybear1988's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    It's going to be hell (and very likely the death of GW).

    My main concern is that they will try and merge 40k and Fantasy. Super human good warriors sounds a lot like Sigmar's a primarch and Karl Franz is now a space marine...
    Last edited by duffybear1988; 06-01-2015 at 17:32.
    "You know, Games Workshop's been trying to kill itself off since the beginning of time. Now, they finally have the power to finish the job. Ain't nothing gonna matter once those fanbois start riding imaginary horses; we'll all be fantasy marines. And Tom Kirby here will be the smartest man on the cinder."

  5. #5
    Why is the rum gone? Darnok's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
    I will stick with 8e then.
    Just what I'll be doing. I'm genuinely happy with the current state of WHF, and will not follow this drastic new direction.

  6. #6

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Five factions plus the new Fantasy Marines? So... Undead, Chaos, Elves, Skaven, ??? as per End Times? RIP Lizards.

  7. #7

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Darnok, I sincerely thank you for the information. But man it is a true bummer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malagor View Post
    I will stick with 8e then.
    +1

    This is idiotic on GWs part.

  8. #8

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Well, my high horse has been turned into dog food and I stand utterly corrected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny View Post
    Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor.

  9. #9

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Wow...

    I like change, but this sounds too drastic even for my tastes.

    I guess I'll never finish my Bretonnian army then. I mean, what is the point? Without support 8th edition will die out sooner or later, and then what will I have? A heap of reasonably painted dust collectors...
    The guards of the great citadel of Azyrheim hear thunder in the distance, even though the sky is clear. The sound suddenly gets louder as a great green tide crests a nearby hill.
    "Orruks! Orruks! Orkus! Orkurs! Orsuk! Sukkor! Kusor!"
    "..."
    "Oi, Stuff dis!"
    "Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs! Orcs!"

  10. #10
    Chapter Master MasterSplinter's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Kings of War here i come.

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    Chapter Master Poncho160's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Months and months and months ago, early last year some time, Harry (I think ) wrote that their would be a new faction for fantasy that they would be the equivalent of 40ks space marines.

    I think it was generally ignored as ET wasn't even a rumour back then. Now Darnock is passing on this information too.....
    Oh Pyrovore, you're like the Eeyore of 40K

  12. #12

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Quote Originally Posted by duffybear1988 View Post
    It's going to be hell (and very likely the death of GW).
    Super human good warriors sounds a lot like Sigmar's a primarch and Karl Franz is now a space marine...
    What i gather from that isn't anything like that,but that they will try to get the "feeling" space marines have in 40k

    If i'm not mistaken a few sources told us that that was what they wanted to do with new bretonnians,and not managing it was one of the reasons the bret book was put on the backburner
    In an age of darkness...The truth must die
    ------
    The sons of Bretonnia were the most valiant in the world,he decreed.They would not wait meekly whilst the realm crumbled around them.The land would be cleansed,the creatures of darkness slaughtered and driven into the ocean.
    Bretonnia would ride out once more:for honour,for the king,and for the Lady!

  13. #13
    Party Bard inq.serge's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    I'm joining "The Gang of 8th". (all tough I want a tiny slaaneshi warband)

    At lest we won't need to change playstyles and army lists with every new armybook.

  14. #14
    Brother Sergeant
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    So do you/your birdy's know if WHF 9th still have rank & file troop blocks or are we going down the skirmish route?

    Also does this change your birdy's comments about a Bretonnia army book coming early-ish 2015?

  15. #15
    Chapter Master shelfunit.'s Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Ouch. I can see this being done to primarily drive the manufacturers of far cheaper "proxy" warhammer models out of business, then 4 years later the "just a dream" card is played, and it's back to business as usual...
    Quote Originally Posted by williamsond (on the new WV) View Post
    well it seems the old adage stands, you can't polish a ****, but it does appear that GW seems to think you can roll one in glitter...
    Member of J.A.D.E.D

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    Chapter Master Azazyll's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    This screams "D&D 4th ed" to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TabulaRasa View Post
    GW games has never been balanced. So i think what you are looking for is chess. You can play it with painted 40k models if that would make it more interesting for you.

  17. #17
    Chapter Master Angelwing's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Interesting times.

  18. #18
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    Not liking the sound of that, I really love the "generic" fantasy feeling warhammer offers. But I guess that's GW's biggest issue.
    I'm glad we almost have a complete edition; rules for magic, monsters, siege, alliances, etc. Even if we end up missing some armybooks, It's not a real stretch to incorporate older ones in eight edition.
    Guess I'l never stop playing this final edition... Perhaps the community can update existing rule issues and armybooks, perhaps even add to the lore.
    I'll reserve my judgement for this "9th" edition for when they announce it. But I'm affraid they'll lose me as a customer...

    Now... Time to start that Bretonnian army I always wanted
    Last edited by Chwiss; 06-01-2015 at 17:50.

  19. #19

    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    First and foremost, thank you Darnok for the information.

    I had a feeling all along that this was the direction that GW was heading, based on several factors, but most of all, due to the fact that it is pretty clear that a drastic shake-up was necessary for a game that had become somewhat stagnant... Don't get me wrong. I am a huge fan of 8th Edition and Warhammer in general, and I have been for some time. That doesn't blind me from seeing the writing on the wall.

    I may be alone in this view, but I am genuinely excited to see what this new game presents. I have enjoyed Warhammer for many years, and I enjoy the hobby. I will give this new game system every opportunity to impress me, and in the event that GW falls flat on their face... Well, hopefully that doesn't happen.

  20. #20
    Chapter Master Skywave's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different

    I'm not sure how I should feel about that.... Thankfully me and and my friends quite like 8th edition, so it looks like we'll play that for a while at least.
    Rest in Peace Tomb Kings. May you forever ride the desert of 8th edition!

    Eight Edition for Life.

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