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Thread: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

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    Admin blackcherry's Avatar
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    Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3...line-retailers

    So, it seems that PP are adopting similar practices to online retailers as GW did a few years ago (though of course PP are phrasing it better and not being quite as restrictive internationally).

    How do you think this will affect your purchases of the game? Did you used to rely on online discounts when ordering? Or will this not affect you as you buy from your local brick and mortar store anyway?

    I'm just curious myself, mostly to see how the community reacts to it.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    From a UK perspective with little to no game shops it will kill off the game.

    Not only that but home gamers are now gonna have to pay extra for those who game in shops. Not everyone has a lgs and means home gamers are being punished. If PP prices weren't so high in first place there would be no freeloaders which from how its said isn't just online stores but customers also. They are also going to screw over customers who order online only by holding back stock for these places which will no doubt annoy the customer as well as the store.

    Some might say there are lgs in the UK and yeah there is but not many and practically zero up north. Hey ho though if it dies it dies
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    Chapter Master duffybear1988's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Dumb move. Have they just employed some recently fired GW suits?

    I'm still a bit annoyed with them over the shoddy casting on some boxes I bought last year. Both the gun mages and hammerhold forgeguard were terrible and most of them are unusable. When I contacted them to complain they said it was due to poor molds and they would eventually get around to creating new ones. No offer of replacement... nothing. I haven't purchased anything from them since.
    Last edited by duffybear1988; 01-04-2016 at 10:52.

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    Chapter Master duffybear1988's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Ah the folks on good old Warseer love me.

    They know that if it gets the wink of approval from me then it must be worth a look.



    I actually really like Warmahordes as a game and the models can be very nice. I have Mercenaries, Cygnar and Retribution so it's not like I'm a complete hater. I just wish they could avoid turning into GW and some quality control would be nice.

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    Admin blackcherry's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Likewise, I like Warmachine as a game (until it gets above 50 points at which the rules system breaks down for me).

    It may be a difference in gaming cultures as well. From general reactions (when you can find a thread that doesn't get deleted of the PP forums that is...) it seems US gamers are finding this better, as there seems to be more of a set up for independent gaming stores over there. Whilst people outside of the US (which you would assume is a larger market...) that don't have a similar setup are a bit annoyed.

    Whatever the case, whoever wrote that press release should be shot. Calling a part of your fan and distributor base free loaders and parasites...maybe following the GW style of not saying much at all would have been better in this case!
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    From a different Uk perspective I'm happy to see support for the FLGS we have. And UndeadKing has a two LGS at least (one of which definitely stocks PP) in his city.

    And you don't get LGSes by allowing online retailers to continually undercut them for price. I can't see it really effecting most of the UK online retailers as they all have gaming spaces and stores and are active in the community.

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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Quote Originally Posted by blackcherry View Post
    http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/3...line-retailers

    So, it seems that PP are adopting similar practices to online retailers as GW did a few years ago (though of course PP are phrasing it better and not being quite as restrictive internationally).

    How do you think this will affect your purchases of the game? Did you used to rely on online discounts when ordering? Or will this not affect you as you buy from your local brick and mortar store anyway?

    I'm just curious myself, mostly to see how the community reacts to it.
    It is a weird, weird thing. My own interest in PP games has been waning (in part due to flaky local group which often just doesn't show up on a regular basis)
    But this move is... odd, and honestly more than a little offensive in some ways. The local stores (and I live in the States, so I don't quite get the US vs other perspective some people are talking about) don't keep most of the range in stock, they have to order stuff any time I want anything, and their distributors aren't always reliable about having stuff in stock. So, my purchases have always been a mix of the LGS and online. Further, the 'local' stores aren't really local- they're about an hour away.

    So, PP wants to punish retailers that are more reliable and has the knock on effect of punishing me for wanting to buy their products. It arguably isn't their intent, but that is the real effect it has. So, no thanks guys. You've taken another step towards becoming GW, with absurd policies that are ethically dubious (I don't see how an individual company has a 'right' to price fixing, which is what this amounts to) and harmful to the customer.

    That their mods are on full time thread locking duty (with a smattering of post deletion) only raises my eyebrows further. Really now.
    I'm waiting to see if my second post on the PP forums about this topic mysteriously vanishes in a GWish fashion
    Last edited by Voss; 02-04-2016 at 17:17.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Regarding countries or regions with little FLGS coverage I wonder if this is where they will adjust their policy. I read the letter as sounding like an almost case by case (region) basis but likely far more broad. Dunno, guess we will see soon. For you guys in the Uk, or I guess anywhere outside of the States, do you find a significant price decrease online vs in stores? Usually I would support the stores and only on the big, over $70 say, purchases from an online discounter. Then there is the case every so often of a deal of the day from Miniature Market where you can get a sweet deal!

    Since I'm finding GW stuff significantly cheaper in Sweden im surprised to see prices about the same, some cases even more expensive in dollars after paying the SEK price. Then the players tell me in some areas of Europe product can takes weeks to get to the stores to go on sale. Guess we do luck out on PP in 'Murica

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    Chapter Master Avian's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    In Norway, PP prices are higher than abroad, while GW are cheaper (and they have great shipping).

    Regarding the policy, when you can effectively get a 50 point army online for the same cost as a 35 point army in a store, it's hard to run a store, and I think it's good that they do something. On the other hand, PP prices are getting a bit silly (that is to say, they are about the same as GW ones). Up here is $56 for the infantry models (The Death Wolves).
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    That their mods are on full time thread locking duty (with a smattering of post deletion) only raises my eyebrows further. Really now.
    I'm waiting to see if my second post on the PP forums about this topic mysteriously vanishes in a GWish fashion
    This. I'm not happy about the policy obviously (I have no FLGS, and don't play - just collect and, theoretically, paint) but Miniature Market hasn't posted anything about these rules affecting them* - and that is where I buy my WM from - so nothing is getting pricier for me personally, at least yet. (I'm guessing MM is big enough to tell PP to eat it, since they were big enough to tell GW to feth off and dropped their products altogether).

    But they do seem to be being pretty ******* about it on their forums, which grates me. Even the civil threads get locked immediately with a "we have no more information we wish to share at this time" - well good for you - your fans/customers might wish to have a discussion about it on you know - the discussion boards.

    * I can't see them not giving their customers forwarning of such a big change. And, funnily enough, they announced a big spring clearance sale today and mention lots of PP (and Infinity) will be on sale.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Yeah, the [lack of] discussion angle makes it much worse. Significantly, too, someone on dakka pointed out that that has a lot of earmarks of the GW/online traders dispute (the 'no online carts' thing that happens, at least in the US) that turned out to basically be prelude to GW consolidating online sales to their own shop. And PP has been doing some funny things off and on with the online shop- limited edition models, exclusives, and other non-LGS friendly things. And kickstarters, with exclusive content, of course, one of which just finished, and isn't likely to benefit stores at all.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Here's the cycle:
    -Internet stores allowed to sell product for 20% off msrp.
    -B&M stores refuse to sell product, as no one buys it. Thus few play the game in the store.
    -Company implements stringent Internet selling policy.
    -Internet stores shut down, B&M stores continue not to stock a product that doesn't sell.
    -Company's Internet store becomes the only place to shop.

    How to end the cycle:
    -Stores exist as "Internet" or "B&M", but not both.
    -Product sold to Internet at 30% under MSRP, they price how they want and are allowed to sell online.
    -Product sold to B&M at 40% under MSRP, they price how they want, but cannot sell online.
    -Official store sets and sells all product at MSRP.
    -Note: Percentages not exact or possibly realistic, but you get the point.

    Fact is, Discount Games is probably why my LGS doesn't stock WMH past the books and Starters.
    Last edited by SuperHappyTime; 05-04-2016 at 04:46.
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    Admin blackcherry's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    It would also kill a lot of Brick and Morter stores, many of which support the physical presence of the shop (and make enough money to survive) by selling online as well.

    It's hard to really say what way this will go - retail in a physical location has been on a steady decline for years because of the internet. It's a trend that effects all markets - the only exception being 'pop up' stores which offer items for a limited time. As most wargaming stores can't sell their products as 'premium items' due to potentially every other wargaming store having access to them, it also cuts out that factor.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperHappyTime View Post
    Here's the cycle:
    -Internet stores allowed to sell product for 20% off msrp.
    -B&M stores refuse to sell product, as no one buys it. Thus few play the game in the store.
    -Company implements stringent Internet selling policy.
    -Internet stores shut down, B&M stores continue not to stock a product that doesn't sell.
    -Company's Internet store becomes the only place to shop.

    How to end the cycle:
    -Stores exist as "Internet" or "B&M", but not both.
    -Product sold to Internet at 30% under MSRP, they price how they want and are allowed to sell online.
    -Product sold to B&M at 40% under MSRP, they price how they want, but cannot sell online.
    -Official store sets and sells all product at MSRP.
    -Note: Percentages not exact or possibly realistic, but you get the point.

    Fact is, Discount Games is probably why my LGS doesn't stock WMH past the books and Starters.
    Eh. I'd be more impressed if the local WM/H players didn't eschew both and just bargain shopped for second hand deals from people who no longer play... which this policy doesn't affect at all. So it is bad feelings and paranoia for no gain at all
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    Chapter Master Treadhead_1st's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    I wonder if this is going to run into any legal challenges, given that EU and UK retail laws are somewhat more stringent than American ones, and a case can be made that this is price/market fixing.

    I do have an LGS, but I can't easily get to it (woo, disabilities!). The only other store I know of that would be easy for me to get to is an hour-and-a-half train ride away. I play at a gaming club that is not attached to a store, and purchase my models online. I've not found a UK retailer that goes below 10% discount (which appears to be fine - DGI are switching to that from 30%) so this change is unlikely to affect my shopping habits personally, but it is rather baffling - especially given the wording ("free rider" is actually a specific term that really doesn't apply here, but sounds negative and condescending).
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    I don't get the big deal on this... I may be missing something here though...

    This does not seem to be the GW style, run your company by our rules or no trade for you at all, and a much more laid back, online stores that don't deep discount are fine and ones that do get their orders after the good guys...

    It's not putting any one out of business, it just means people who want deep discounts need to wait an extra week longer then people who are OK with only a little discount... Not exactly a big problem?

    If it was GW you would have to work without an online shopping cart or some other esoteric rule to keep in with a trade account....

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    Chapter Master Treadhead_1st's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Quote Originally Posted by aprilmanha View Post
    I don't get the big deal on this... I may be missing something here though...

    This does not seem to be the GW style, run your company by our rules or no trade for you at all, and a much more laid back, online stores that don't deep discount are fine and ones that do get their orders after the good guys...

    It's not putting any one out of business, it just means people who want deep discounts need to wait an extra week longer then people who are OK with only a little discount... Not exactly a big problem?

    If it was GW you would have to work without an online shopping cart or some other esoteric rule to keep in with a trade account....
    From what I understand of the press release, it's not the stores that get the sanction, but the distributors. If I remember correctly, there is only one UK distributor for PP products. If any store in the whole of the UK offers a "too great" discount, then the distributor gets unspecified delays on delivery, greater for new products. That means that every single store in the UK receives order delays, unless the distributor drops the discount store as a client. There are also only one or two distributors for the entirety of the EU.
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    There is more than one distributor in the UK.

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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravin View Post
    There is more than one distributor in the UK.
    Perhaps, but if any of the people the distributor supplies to don't meet PP's desire goals, the entirety of the distributor network is effected. That's still major, even if there isn't just the one*.

    *There are a few, but only one massive one that supplies about 80% of the pp bits to the UK and surrounding regions.
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    Chapter Master aprilmanha's Avatar
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    Re: Privateer Press punishing 'parasitic' retailers

    I only see a 10% discount anywhere anyway so I don't think this will change anything here, and if it leads to greater support for the FLGS then thats good for community!

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