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Thread: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

  1. #1
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    ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    The General Tactics thread seems to be going quite well.

    Thought it might be a good idea to open one up for specific armies and keep the two seperate.

    Ill kick things off with a simple one.

    Unit of 20+ Glade guard. & either a glade lord (or Nomad prince in the updated rules) Or even better is a Glade lord on forest Drake.

    keeping your Archers at a safedistance and with numbers above 20 will turn their 4+ hit to a 3+.

    The GL on drake allows you to select one unit and reroll all hit & wound rolls of 1 until the next hero phase.

    As well as bumping up these guys only slighly above average shooting to a pretty deadily salvo. It will turn their arcane bodkins (once perbattle shooting rend becomes -3) into a 1 hit KO for all but the hardiest units.

    As soon as the enemy is close enough move your drake into combat to make use of its breath ability but close enough that it can continue to buff the archers.

  2. #2

    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Good choice opening army specific tactics as a separate thread.

    I'll start with a matched play strategy since the General's Handbook has been a popular topic lately.

    When controlling Dwarfs against Chaos, bring an Unforged (Dragon Slayer) for only 100pts and equip him with the Relic Blade artifact.

    The Unforged has 6 attacks at 3+ 3+ -1 with 1 damage, but with the Relic Blade he does 2 damage. Also, the Unforged gains +1 to wound against models with more than one wound and deals double damage against chaos, so his attacks end up doing 4 damage a piece. That means on average the Unforged will deal 15.55... wounds against chaos.

  3. #3
    Chapter Master malisteen's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Matched play should probably be the focus of tactics threads anyway. Free/Narrative play really isn't structured enough for much specific tactical advice to be widely applicable anyway, too much of it will come down to whatever house rules and battle plans are in effect.

    For undead, the command traits let your general go either very defensive or very offensive.

    On the defensive end, the obvious command ability is Ruler of the Night, giving a +1 to the death faction allegiance ability. This gives your entire army (as long as your general is alive and your units are within range of a hero), a 5+ chance to ignore any wound or mortal wound suffered, AFTER saving throws, which is huge, especially when combined with the faction's built in resiliance (ethereal units, TK statuary) and recursion (healing spells, banners, courtiers) mechanics. Speaking of recursion, the tomb blade allows your general to heal a wound for every wound he inflicts with a chosen melee weapon.

    If points are limited, try combining these on a Wight King with Black Axe. The key ability here is that he halves incoming wounds, nearly doubling both his initial durability and the effect of the tomb blade's healing. He's also got reasonable offense for an infantry hero, and a solid command ability if you're fielding any deathrattle units (and don't forget tomb king deathrattle options, like skeletal archers and necropolis knights, which can also benefit).

    While we're on the subject of Tomb Kings compendium units, If you've got a few more points to spare, you can go with the WKwBA's bigger, stronger cousin, the Royal Warsphinx. Like the WKwBA, the royal sphinx halves incoming wounds, but it has more than twice as many wounds to start, a deadlier tomb blade to heal off of (as long as you keep him reasonably healthy), can be healed an extra d3 wounds per turn by a friendly death caster, and has what is a potentially even more deadly command ability, so long as you field multiple death units that can concentrate their attacks at a single enemy unit.

    I imagine the royal warsphinx will be a very popular option for defensive, deathrattle-leaning undead armies.


    On the more offensive end, is the Red Fury command trait, effectively Konrad's ability. Roll a die after your general attacks in melee. If you roll less than the wounds they inflicted, attack all over again. You know who tends to inflict more than six wounds? A vampire lord on zombie dragon. Because, if I'm reading it correctly, the ability lets your entire general attack twice, including any mount. A dragon-mounted vamp lord at full health under the effect of its own command ability averages 14 wounds inflicted before saves, all with at least -1 rend, meaning he's very, very likely to swing twice. The only risk is killing so many models in your first swing that some of your attacks will be out of range the second swing, since you don't get to pile in again, just attack, but honestly 'I killed so many enemies that there weren't any left to kill' is not exactly a bad problem to have.

    We don't really have any offense boosting artifacts, so you could either go with the tomb blade for more healing (average not quite 5 wounds inflicted with the sword per turn, with -1 rend, every wound inflicted heals a wound, and you can swing & heal twice if you kill at least 7 models total and there's anyone left within an inch), to make this a very difficult monster to deal with. Alternatively, take the cloak of mists and shadows for a free, 1/game 12 inch teleport. either pocket it to get out of engagements that aren't going your way, or burn it right away to turn your vamp dragon general into a missile with 26" of movement followed by a charge and potentially wipe out an entire enemy unit in the first turn of the game? A red fury vamp dragon has a fair shot of dropping even nagash in a single combat round, before the big guy can so much as blink an empty eye socket. I mean, not that you'd actually be able to reach Nagash first round, he'd have a screen, but if you could reach him you'd have even odds killing him before he could attack back at all.

    You can get similar ridiculousness by giving red fury to a royal warsphinx or to a ghoul king on zombie dragon or terrorgheist. The royal warsphinx version is a lot slower, but then again opponents will be expecting it to be slower as well, the cloak of mists and shadows trick could result in some extremely unexpected charges there, especially since, if you don't exchange lists in advance, they'll be expecting a defensive, Ruler of the Night build when they see you deploy it.
    Last edited by malisteen; 03-07-2016 at 17:09.
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  4. #4
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by malisteen View Post
    Matched play should probably be the focus of tactics threads anyway. Free/Narrative play really isn't structured enough for much specific tactical advice to be widely applicable anyway, too much of it will come down to whatever house rules and battle plans are in effect.

    For undead, the command traits let your general go either very defensive or very offensive.

    On the defensive end, the obvious command ability is Ruler of the Night, giving a +1 to the death faction allegiance ability. This gives your entire army (as long as your general is alive and your units are within range of a hero), a 5+ chance to ignore any wound or mortal wound suffered, AFTER saving throws, which is huge, especially when combined with the faction's built in resiliance (ethereal units, TK statuary) and recursion (healing spells, banners, courtiers) mechanics. Speaking of recursion, the tomb blade allows your general to heal a wound for every wound he inflicts with a chosen melee weapon.

    If points are limited, try combining these on a Wight King with Black Axe. The key ability here is that he halves incoming wounds, nearly doubling both his initial durability and the effect of the tomb blade's healing. He's also got reasonable offense for an infantry hero, and a solid command ability if you're fielding any deathrattle units (and don't forget tomb king deathrattle options, like skeletal archers and necropolis knights, which can also benefit).

    While we're on the subject of Tomb Kings compendium units, If you've got a few more points to spare, you can go with the WKwBA's bigger, stronger cousin, the Royal Warsphinx. Like the WKwBA, the royal sphinx halves incoming wounds, but it has more than twice as many wounds to start, a deadlier tomb blade to heal off of (as long as you keep him reasonably healthy), can be healed an extra d3 wounds per turn by a friendly death caster, and has what is a potentially even more deadly command ability, so long as you field multiple death units that can concentrate their attacks at a single enemy unit.

    I imagine the royal warsphinx will be a very popular option for defensive, deathrattle-leaning undead armies.


    On the more offensive end, is the Red Fury command trait, effectively Konrad's ability. Roll a die after your general attacks in melee. If you roll less than the wounds they inflicted, attack all over again. You know who tends to inflict more than six wounds? A vampire lord on zombie dragon. Because, if I'm reading it correctly, the ability lets your entire general attack twice, including any mount. A dragon-mounted vamp lord at full health under the effect of its own command ability averages 14 wounds inflicted before saves, all with at least -1 rend, meaning he's very, very likely to swing twice. The only risk is killing so many models in your first swing that some of your attacks will be out of range the second swing, since you don't get to pile in again, just attack, but honestly 'I killed so many enemies that there weren't any left to kill' is not exactly a bad problem to have.

    We don't really have any offense boosting artifacts, so you could either go with the tomb blade for more healing (average not quite 5 wounds inflicted with the sword per turn, with -1 rend, every wound inflicted heals a wound, and you can swing & heal twice if you kill at least 7 models total and there's anyone left within an inch), to make this a very difficult monster to deal with. Alternatively, take the cloak of mists and shadows for a free, 1/game 12 inch teleport. either pocket it to get out of engagements that aren't going your way, or burn it right away to turn your vamp dragon general into a missile with 26" of movement followed by a charge and potentially wipe out an entire enemy unit in the first turn of the game? A red fury vamp dragon has a fair shot of dropping even nagash in a single combat round, before the big guy can so much as blink an empty eye socket. I mean, not that you'd actually be able to reach Nagash first round, he'd have a screen, but if you could reach him you'd have even odds killing him before he could attack back at all.

    You can get similar ridiculousness by giving red fury to a royal warsphinx or to a ghoul king on zombie dragon or terrorgheist. The royal warsphinx version is a lot slower, but then again opponents will be expecting it to be slower as well, the cloak of mists and shadows trick could result in some extremely unexpected charges there, especially since, if you don't exchange lists in advance, they'll be expecting a defensive, Ruler of the Night build when they see you deploy it.
    Nice summation. Ruler of the night is an auto-pick for me but as an artefact I'll likely be taking the resurrection (Carstein) ring, yet to test it, but our characters are quite lethal already and it seems a decent insurance policy.

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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Without wanting to come across as That Guy, none of this has anything to do with "tactics". I admit, I cannot stand AoS but with the impending arrival of The General's Handbook, I'm willing to give it a second chance. However it is the lack of actual strategy and tactics within the game that constantly turn me off it. Item combos and buffing abilities are not tactics. They are gimmicks. The same sort of combo-slamming that has people leaving 40K for the likes of X-Wing.

    If anyone has any analysis of how individual units/armies can use speed and positioning in a way that makes their attacks more efficient and in a manner different to another army then I'm all ears. Basically, outside of "bring this dude because he has X ability" how are armies different in the way they play?

    For instance looking back at "The Game That Was" you can clearly see how an Empire army could go chaff heavy to lure an opponent in but also could go heavy infantry/cavalry and just try and smash face. This is outside of "bring a Grandmaster because he can do blah blah."

    Similarly in Kings of War, because the whole point is to try and get a combo charge or flank/rear charge, the movement phase is ridiculously important. This gives rise to much debate about whether to bring big immobile but hardy hordes or go MSU, the importance of chaff and redirecting etc etc. Again this is beyond "Bring such and such an item".

    'N' stuff.
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  6. #6
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Banville View Post
    Without wanting to come across as That Guy, none of this has anything to do with "tactics". I admit, I cannot stand AoS but with the impending arrival of The General's Handbook, I'm willing to give it a second chance. However it is the lack of actual strategy and tactics within the game that constantly turn me off it. Item combos and buffing abilities are not tactics. They are gimmicks. The same sort of combo-slamming that has people leaving 40K for the likes of X-Wing.

    If anyone has any analysis of how individual units/armies can use speed and positioning in a way that makes their attacks more efficient and in a manner different to another army then I'm all ears. Basically, outside of "bring this dude because he has X ability" how are armies different in the way they play?

    For instance looking back at "The Game That Was" you can clearly see how an Empire army could go chaff heavy to lure an opponent in but also could go heavy infantry/cavalry and just try and smash face. This is outside of "bring a Grandmaster because he can do blah blah."

    Similarly in Kings of War, because the whole point is to try and get a combo charge or flank/rear charge, the movement phase is ridiculously important. This gives rise to much debate about whether to bring big immobile but hardy hordes or go MSU, the importance of chaff and redirecting etc etc. Again this is beyond "Bring such and such an item".

    'N' stuff.

    I'm giving it a try because of the GH too. There's plenty I can see, it's just obvious so people talk about it less. Can still take a cav heavy army, or a reactive shooty army, or blah. Will concede there is much less rules focus/reward on movement than old fantasy which is a pity, mind. And yes, synergy between units and combos/buffs are a much bigger part of the game it seems.

    Example - counter to your KOW example - it's not particularly strategic (more tactical) - zombies get pretty lethal in numbers but I find they're largely ignored when taken msu. They're easy to raise and really cheap chaff. However, their individual units can mob up into hordes and hit/wound everything on a 3+. You can imagine how nasty that can be, when a couple of ignored, understrength units of zombies get behind a combat, mob up and pile-in. You can amplify that further with summoning and an undead hero nearby giving them passive buffs.
    Last edited by Mirbeau; 05-07-2016 at 13:39.

  7. #7
    Commander veterannoob's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    @Banville...I'll put this as best I can and please read no negativity or hostility into this (nice set up, right? ) ... I understand your position and you are hardly the only person to share it, but... concerning tactics in AoS, GHB or no, I recommend just taking a look at a good, diverse selection of warscrolls, free on the AoS app, from armies, factions, the batallions not requiring the $1.99 to unlock since they are in regular books $33-$50. Just imagine all the rules bloat (nowhere near 40K, mind you) and think: Ok, i might not go first each turn, potential for both to gain a double turn, order of close combats, hero effects duration, terrain doesn't move for unit footprints, move to control board, capture objectives, circle for best pile-in, defend via terrain footprint, check crucial ranges like command abilities and spells or other buff/debuff synergies. There's really sosooooo much and I do hope you see it.
    Just a thought. But that hopefully helps you get into the mindset a bit before trying it out with the new book. There are, gotta be close to 100 at least by now, scenarios to play and the game is scenarios. Do NOT play old idea of battleline. Use lots of terrain. Have narrative goals and play how you want (use base2base or shooting or no shooting in/out combat, etc.)
    Good luck and hope you enjoy!
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  8. #8
    Chapter Master malisteen's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Banville View Post
    Without wanting to come across as That Guy
    I fear you may be coming off as That Guy whether you want to or not. Army-Specific discussion is going to revolve around the unique options available to particular armies, which now includes items and command traits, I don't see why they should be any more off-limits in a tactical discussion than specific units. And these items and abilities are one of the more exciting additions coming with the new General's Handbook, so discussion of them should be expected. And tactical discussion even in oldhammer often revolved around specific synergies and ability combos, so I'm not sure what rustled your feathers. If you don't want that kind of targeted discussion, there's another thread for more general AoS tactic/strategy discussion.


    That said, in terms of more generalized, positioning type stuff, a lot of that comes down to the 3 inch control ranges. Nothing can move into an enemy control range except via charges, which must end with at least one model within 1/2 inch of an enemy. The control range remains the same regardless of the reach of weapons., and pile in is 3".

    Most units have 1" melee reach, enough to attack in maybe two ranks, but not more than that. Most infantry units also are dependent on large numbers to be effective - 10 skeletons with 1 attack each are garbage, 30 skeletons with 3 attacks each are a real threat, and a solid buffing target. As such, infantry units are going to tend to spread wide, hoping to engage with more models, but also tend not to be very deep. If you can get to the flank of such a unit, then you'll likely be able to kill several of them, reducing their number bonuses, before they can get the bulk of their models moved in to fight back. The advantage of a flank charge is thus the unspoken 'most of my unit is fighting and most of their unit isn't' aspect, rather than any particular numeric bonus.

    Combined unit formations of a type not really possible in warhammer are also a think, particularly on the defense. Offensive leaning units, particularly ones with reach, can be positioned an inch or two behind a more durable forward unit. Enemy units that charge the screen will come within pile in & attack range of the rear unit, but will only be able to attack the more durable forward unit. I've used this to decent effect with tomb guard (better than grave guard for this due to their superior shield mechanics), screening a large block of spear-armed skeletons. I've also used the same tactic with spirit hosts screening morghast archai.

    Obviously, defensive buffs on the forward unit (mystic shield is the ubiquitous option, and is especially effective on rend-immune units like spirit hosts), and offensive buffs on the rear unit (vanhels, wight king command ability, etc), make the block all the more threatening to enemy units.

    Of course, the trouble with this is that it's very much a defensive formation - if the opponent simply doesn't charge you, then the rear unit will have a difficult time charging on your turn with the screen in front of them - again, a successful charge needs to end within half an inch of the enemy regardless of the charging unit's melee attack range. The spirit host/archai combo gets around this via high movement values, smaller model count, and flight.


    The other issue that makes such combined formations more defensive than offensive is that units roll for run independently of each other, and one at a time, so with formations that depend on carefully managed distances between the units are limited to 1" march moves if they want to guarantee they stay together. If you use grave guard instead of tomb guard (not ideal due to the shields, but still), then you can use the legion of death battalion to get some reliable extra movement that way, but it probably isn't worth the tax units (black knights aren't really worth bothering with, and you'll rarely need or want more than a single unit of skeleton warriors).


    There's also a lot of shenanigans that can be pulled with warscroll battalions that grant extra movement abilities - the start collecting boxes for lizardmen and ghosts come immediately to mind. The ghost box in particular is super useful. However, because start collecting & campaign book battalions do not yet have points costs, and as such are not yet usable for matched play, they're probably not worth really getting into, yet.
    Last edited by malisteen; 05-07-2016 at 18:22.
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  9. #9
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    I feel the differences in opinion arise from people using different/incorrect names. Tactics typically imply taking specific actions and historically have been separated from list-building, which is what most people commenting about combos and synergies (in a void) seem to discuss.

    I have to concur that tactics and list-building are indeed different things, but I don't think they need to be separated at this point, since clearly there is not enough of either to difficult looking through both.

  10. #10
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by malisteen View Post
    I fear you may be coming off as That Guy whether you want to or not. Army-Specific discussion is going to revolve around the unique options available to particular armies, which now includes items and command traits, I don't see why they should be any more off-limits in a tactical discussion than specific units. And these items and abilities are one of the more exciting additions coming with the new General's Handbook, so discussion of them should be expected. And tactical discussion even in oldhammer often revolved around specific synergies and ability combos, so I'm not sure what rustled your feathers. If you don't want that kind of targeted discussion, there's another thread for more general AoS tactic/strategy discussion.



    That said, in terms of more generalized, positioning type stuff, a lot of that comes down to the 3 inch control ranges. Nothing can move into an enemy control range except via charges, which must end with at least one model within 1/2 inch of an enemy. The control range remains the same regardless of the reach of weapons., and pile in is 3".

    Most units have 1" melee reach, enough to attack in maybe two ranks, but not more than that. Most infantry units also are dependent on large numbers to be effective - 10 skeletons with 1 attack each are garbage, 30 skeletons with 3 attacks each are a real threat, and a solid buffing target. As such, infantry units are going to tend to spread wide, hoping to engage with more models, but also tend not to be very deep. If you can get to the flank of such a unit, then you'll likely be able to kill several of them, reducing their number bonuses, before they can get the bulk of their models moved in to fight back. The advantage of a flank charge is thus the unspoken 'most of my unit is fighting and most of their unit isn't' aspect, rather than any particular numeric bonus.

    Combined unit formations of a type not really possible in warhammer are also a think, particularly on the defense. Offensive leaning units, particularly ones with reach, can be positioned an inch or two behind a more durable forward unit. Enemy units that charge the screen will come within pile in & attack range of the rear unit, but will only be able to attack the more durable forward unit. I've used this to decent effect with tomb guard (better than grave guard for this due to their superior shield mechanics), screening a large block of spear-armed skeletons. I've also used the same tactic with spirit hosts screening morghast archai.

    Obviously, defensive buffs on the forward unit (mystic shield is the ubiquitous option, and is especially effective on rend-immune units like spirit hosts), and offensive buffs on the rear unit (vanhels, wight king command ability, etc), make the block all the more threatening to enemy units.

    Of course, the trouble with this is that it's very much a defensive formation - if the opponent simply doesn't charge you, then the rear unit will have a difficult time charging on your turn with the screen in front of them - again, a successful charge needs to end within half an inch of the enemy regardless of the charging unit's melee attack range. The spirit host/archai combo gets around this via high movement values, smaller model count, and flight.


    The other issue that makes such combined formations more defensive than offensive is that units roll for run independently of each other, and one at a time, so with formations that depend on carefully managed distances between the units are limited to 1" march moves if they want to guarantee they stay together. If you use grave guard instead of tomb guard (not ideal due to the shields, but still), then you can use the legion of death battalion to get some reliable extra movement that way, but it probably isn't worth the tax units (black knights aren't really worth bothering with, and you'll rarely need or want more than a single unit of skeleton warriors).


    There's also a lot of shenanigans that can be pulled with warscroll battalions that grant extra movement abilities - the start collecting boxes for lizardmen and ghosts come immediately to mind. The ghost box in particular is super useful. However, because start collecting & campaign book battalions do not yet have points costs, and as such are not yet usable for matched play, they're probably not worth really getting into, yet.
    Nice summation of movement/deployment tactics, couldn't have put it better.

  11. #11
    Chapter Master malisteen's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    In terms of army-specific stuff, I've been tinkering with ideas on how to use Arkhan the Black in matched play. The rules of one and summoning restrictions hit him especially hard out of the three mortarchs, but then again he is fully 100 points cheaper than the next cheapest of his peers, and he still boasts impressive casting bonuses, if only you can find something to use them on.

    My current best solution is the healing spells on several tomb kings units, especially sphinxes and necropolis knights. Necropolis knights are extra notable due to their deathrattle keyword, which lets them benefit from a wide selection of command abilities and buff spells, as well as their simply ludicrous points efficiency. They'd probably still be a good unit at 240 points, 160 is just nuts for a unit that combines speed, impressive hitting power, potent defense, and incredible recursion mechanics (one free 5 wound model back every turn from their banner, plus potentially a second from their spell). Combine that with the 5+ FNP save from our faction trait plus RotN - seriously, that's so incredibly good that it's probably going to need to be nerfed sooner rather than later, and you've got an outright nightmare of a unit that just loves having a reliable caster like Arkhan nearby. Of course, Arkhan can't take RotN, so you'll need a generic hero to be your general, and what better choice than the Royal Warsphinx, another healing target for Arkhan, another unit that is both offensively powerful and incredibly difficult to remove, and with an excellent command ability that the Necropolis Knights, as deathrattle units, are more than happy to take advantage of. Throw in some support casters, extra casting buffs, and zombies to cheaply fill battleline requirements, and I may be on to something.

    Hypothetical lists and further discussion here: LINK
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by malisteen View Post
    I fear you may be coming off as That Guy whether you want to or not. Army-Specific discussion is going to revolve around the unique options available to particular armies, which now includes items and command traits, I don't see why they should be any more off-limits in a tactical discussion than specific units. And these items and abilities are one of the more exciting additions coming with the new General's Handbook, so discussion of them should be expected. And tactical discussion even in oldhammer often revolved around specific synergies and ability combos, so I'm not sure what rustled your feathers. If you don't want that kind of targeted discussion, there's another thread for more general AoS tactic/strategy discussion.


    That said, in terms of more generalized, positioning type stuff, a lot of that comes down to the 3 inch control ranges. Nothing can move into an enemy control range except via charges, which must end with at least one model within 1/2 inch of an enemy. The control range remains the same regardless of the reach of weapons., and pile in is 3".

    Most units have 1" melee reach, enough to attack in maybe two ranks, but not more than that. Most infantry units also are dependent on large numbers to be effective - 10 skeletons with 1 attack each are garbage, 30 skeletons with 3 attacks each are a real threat, and a solid buffing target. As such, infantry units are going to tend to spread wide, hoping to engage with more models, but also tend not to be very deep. If you can get to the flank of such a unit, then you'll likely be able to kill several of them, reducing their number bonuses, before they can get the bulk of their models moved in to fight back. The advantage of a flank charge is thus the unspoken 'most of my unit is fighting and most of their unit isn't' aspect, rather than any particular numeric bonus.

    Combined unit formations of a type not really possible in warhammer are also a think, particularly on the defense. Offensive leaning units, particularly ones with reach, can be positioned an inch or two behind a more durable forward unit. Enemy units that charge the screen will come within pile in & attack range of the rear unit, but will only be able to attack the more durable forward unit. I've used this to decent effect with tomb guard (better than grave guard for this due to their superior shield mechanics), screening a large block of spear-armed skeletons. I've also used the same tactic with spirit hosts screening morghast archai.

    Obviously, defensive buffs on the forward unit (mystic shield is the ubiquitous option, and is especially effective on rend-immune units like spirit hosts), and offensive buffs on the rear unit (vanhels, wight king command ability, etc), make the block all the more threatening to enemy units.

    Of course, the trouble with this is that it's very much a defensive formation - if the opponent simply doesn't charge you, then the rear unit will have a difficult time charging on your turn with the screen in front of them - again, a successful charge needs to end within half an inch of the enemy regardless of the charging unit's melee attack range. The spirit host/archai combo gets around this via high movement values, smaller model count, and flight.


    The other issue that makes such combined formations more defensive than offensive is that units roll for run independently of each other, and one at a time, so with formations that depend on carefully managed distances between the units are limited to 1" march moves if they want to guarantee they stay together. If you use grave guard instead of tomb guard (not ideal due to the shields, but still), then you can use the legion of death battalion to get some reliable extra movement that way, but it probably isn't worth the tax units (black knights aren't really worth bothering with, and you'll rarely need or want more than a single unit of skeleton warriors).


    There's also a lot of shenanigans that can be pulled with warscroll battalions that grant extra movement abilities - the start collecting boxes for lizardmen and ghosts come immediately to mind. The ghost box in particular is super useful. However, because start collecting & campaign book battalions do not yet have points costs, and as such are not yet usable for matched play, they're probably not worth really getting into, yet.
    That's the sort of stuff I was looking for! I think the list building vs tactics thing is a feature of most skirmish games, which is why I fell out of love with Warmahordes. If I wanted to build a MtG deck, I'd build a MtG deck. The above quote though gives me hope for AoS.

  13. #13
    Chapter Master malisteen's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Yeah, but 'list building' was the majority of most warhammer fantasy 'tactics' threads ime, too, it's not just a skirmish game thing. Anyway, the Generals Handbook is the big new thing right now, in particular matched play - with points costs (ie, list building) and general traits/artifacts (ie, outfitting and combos) - so while I understand if that kind of thing isn't your preference, it's going to be the bulk of discussion for a bit.

    The other big thing is the new sylvaneth plant daemons/fey spirits release, but I think full discussion of that is still kind of waiting for their battletome - with its formations, spell lore, and the like.
    They should have called it "Age of Krell"
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  14. #14
    Chapter Master malisteen's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Not really a tactics thing so much as an observation, but... the more I look at them, the more criminally underpriced necropolis knights seem to be at 160 for 3, at least in comparison to death units. Point for point, they're basically blood knights, if blood knights had half again as many wounds, were always charging in every combat round, could be targeted by vanhels and the command abilities of wight and tomb kings, and came with a 5 wound healing spell that your casters could use on them. The only thing blood knights have on them is a smaller footprint and a couple inches movement speed, nowhere near enough to close the gap, imo. And blood knights are not a bad unit from what I can tell, necroknights just seem to be just way undervalued. I don't know how the comparison holds to the point costs of units from other alliances, but interior to the death alliance, necroknights are nuts, they'd still be a bargain at 20 points more per batch, they'd arguably still be decent at 20 points more per model.
    They should have called it "Age of Krell"
    ~ Malisteen

  15. #15

    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Yes, list building has nothing to do with tactics, though it is a part of strategy. I'm not sure if this thread is meant to be completely devoid of strategy, or if the OP just used the word tactics as more of a "general game tips" sort of meaning.

    So, I'll include an actual army specific tactic for Dwarfs:

    Plant a Gyrocopter behind one of your units that is about to be charged by a large infantry unit. Now, in your next shooting phase, you Gyrocopter will likely contain the entire enemy unit within 6", increasing the effectiveness of it's attack.

    My single Gyrocopter was capable of making about 40 attacks doing this, which I believe killed about 18 models and then the rest of the unit do to the following combat phase and battleshock. The opponent on the other hand had only killed 1 out of my 10 Ironbreakers.

  16. #16
    Brother Sergeant
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    I think we can all agree that list building and tactics are different and just to clarify i didnt open this thread for people to simply list off all the different artifacts and battalions etc.

    HOWEVER at the same time using item and unit combinations IS tactics plain and simple.

    Tactics are means to gain an objective

    Strategy are overall game plans that lead to Tactical execusion.

    I set up this thread as a spin-off from the general tactics to hear about any unit combos that work well specfically due to an armies abilites or synergy. Post about specific combinations used in your armies NOT the army as a whole. For example (Although very basic):

    Using a unit of Eternal guard with a mystic shield (only 1 since you cant stack them) along with the fortress of boughs(possibly on a wall or in a gateway) this turns them into a very powerful unit for the cost but they cant move. I also like to space them an inch apart and have WW rangers or wardancers to pour through the gaps and deal out damage.

    Doing this will create a solid wall of quite cheap units that can soak up alot of damage. It also means that my damage dealers can retreat if needed without being pursued.


    Another one wanderer specif one is to use a forest drakes sporific breath. Wait for a large enough crush of Melee to appear and then position your drake in combat so that as many units are within a 3" bubble as possible. His ability will allow all your units it attack before any of the enemiesunits (In the 3" bubble) a big honking dragon should slow down the enemy some also.


    As part of my overall STRATEGY i would use both as way of slowing down the enemy advance so my glade guard can whittle away at the enemy (That being my overall game plan) before picking off the survivors.
    This thread is NOT a debate of what counts as tactics not whether AOS has tactics. If you dont have some tactical ideas to share this isent the thread for you.

  17. #17

    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by KieranHayns View Post
    I think we can all agree that list building and tactics are different and just to clarify i didnt open this thread for people to simply list off all the different artifacts and battalions etc.

    HOWEVER at the same time using item and unit combinations IS tactics plain and simple.

    Tactics are means to gain an objective

    Strategy are overall game plans that lead to Tactical execusion.

    I set up this thread as a spin-off from the general tactics to hear about any unit combos that work well specfically due to an armies abilites or synergy. Post about specific combinations used in your armies NOT the army as a whole. For example (Although very basic):

    Using a unit of Eternal guard with a mystic shield (only 1 since you cant stack them) along with the fortress of boughs(possibly on a wall or in a gateway) this turns them into a very powerful unit for the cost but they cant move. I also like to space them an inch apart and have WW rangers or wardancers to pour through the gaps and deal out damage.

    Doing this will create a solid wall of quite cheap units that can soak up alot of damage. It also means that my damage dealers can retreat if needed without being pursued.


    Another one wanderer specif one is to use a forest drakes sporific breath. Wait for a large enough crush of Melee to appear and then position your drake in combat so that as many units are within a 3" bubble as possible. His ability will allow all your units it attack before any of the enemiesunits (In the 3" bubble) a big honking dragon should slow down the enemy some also.


    As part of my overall STRATEGY i would use both as way of slowing down the enemy advance so my glade guard can whittle away at the enemy (That being my overall game plan) before picking off the survivors.
    This thread is NOT a debate of what counts as tactics not whether AOS has tactics. If you dont have some tactical ideas to share this isent the thread for you.
    +1 to all that is said here, well said. And Wood Elves are very nice at the moment especially since they have not been split up to much like the other elves.

    Also, Eternal Guards synergize very well with Sisters of the Thorn's Shield of Thorns. Since Fortress of Boughs adds 1 to your save roll, the mortal wound on Shield of Thorns happens on a 5+, and the EG will have a 4+ re-rollable save. And, if in cover with the Shield of Thorns and FoB, they will have a re-rollable 3+ save with a mortal wound dealt on a 4+, so essentially for every 9 wounds inflicted on the Eternal Guard they will only take 1 wound while the enemy takes 6. These guys are amazing for only 80 points.

  18. #18
    Chapter Master
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Army tactic for Chaos:

    Use Pink Horrors to block access to specific parts of the battlefield, including spellcasters, artillery(Such as Chaos Dwarf Hellcannons) and such.

    When a unit of 10 Pink Horrors are charged, they will all be killed and replaced by 20 blue horrors. Set up the 20 Blue Horrors outside of 3 inches of the enemy so they can't pile in in your turn. They will be forced to charge and kill the 20 blue horrors. Even if they -are- killed in a single turn, they will be replaced with 20 Brimstone Horrors. Repeat.

    This will give you 3 turns of protection for said unit.

  19. #19
    Chapter Master zendral's Avatar
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Memnos View Post
    Army tactic for Chaos:

    Use Pink Horrors to block access to specific parts of the battlefield, including spellcasters, artillery(Such as Chaos Dwarf Hellcannons) and such.

    When a unit of 10 Pink Horrors are charged, they will all be killed and replaced by 20 blue horrors. Set up the 20 Blue Horrors outside of 3 inches of the enemy so they can't pile in in your turn. They will be forced to charge and kill the 20 blue horrors. Even if they -are- killed in a single turn, they will be replaced with 20 Brimstone Horrors. Repeat.

    This will give you 3 turns of protection for said unit.
    How does his work with matched play? Blue and brimstone horrors don't have points. My group is arguing that because there are no points and they act as additions to an army....they can't be used in matches play. Unless someone knows something I don't, what's your take on this?
    Tell me what's on your mind or I'll splatter it on the wall and see for myself! -(Blitzwing, Transformers)

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  20. #20
    Brother Sergeant
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    Re: ARMY SPECIFIC tactics in AOS

    Can you break it down real slow like for me ;-). How does Fortress of the Boughs make the Sisters Thorns a 5+ instead of 6+? I am not arguing against it, I just need some help understanding. Thanks!

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