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Thread: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

  1. #141

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    Errr, that's odd... for reference, this is what my card says!

    Attachment 233670

    We playin' the same game or what? Even the fluff text is different?

    In any case, the ruling for ALL multiple hit effects in 5e is definitely as my card reads. It doesn't matter what multiplies the hits... they are always multiplied against the single model that has been attacked. If an effect says it multiplies your attacks, then that is different. The end result is that you can only ever kill as many enemy models as you have attacks on your characteristic profile (as modified by frenzy, additional hand weapons and so on). That means the Hydra Sword is best used on beast-slaying heroes (give them a flying mount and send them after the enemy dragon or giant), since a lower strength or attack score is less important if every hit becomes D6 hits. It is wasted on a lord model, in my opinion. For the general rule, see the FAQ in WD 222:
    Oh good grief.

    Who came up with that? Seriously, who needs that much complexity in a game? Even the "clarified" version is a pain in the butt to administer.

    Yes, I get your point - it's supposed to be a monster-killer, but what if your plans go awry and now you're fighting grunts? Now you have to allocate each attack and then roll for the extra hits and adjudicate them as well.

    Plus there was the whole "immovable object vs irresistible force" problem that required a law degree to sort out.

    The better way to do that - and the one GW ultimately embraced - was to have fewer, more discrete items in limited combinations. That way you don't have to carry the main rule book, the army books and a stack of back issues with you to figure out how the game is actually played.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

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    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  2. #142
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    After digging out my Big Box of Cards and delving around it for half an hour or so, I managed to locate both of the cards that Galadrin and Arnizipal posted and I can inform that:

    1.) The card that Arnizipal first posted is actually from the 5th edition magic supplement.
    2.) The other card that Galadrin posted is instead from the 4th edition magic supplement.

    The difference becomes evident once you check the reverse side of the card, since those are quite different for the two editions in style. 4th edition has identical reverse side for all items (black with magic colour circle and text "Magic Item") while the 5th edition reverse sides are more varied and include text specifying the type of the item and the name of the item.

    As for why the designers decided to shorten the description while going from 4th to 5th edition I cannot say.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  3. #143

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
    As for why the designers decided to shorten the description while going from 4th to 5th edition I cannot say.
    The simplest answer is that they wanted the item to be more powerful.

    I really don't understand how people keep assuming that the rules exploits in GW's products happened by accident. As an (obscure) game designer, I'm here to tell you that when you put a rule in the system, you do so knowing people will use it.

    It is breath-takingly easy to rule out cheaty combinations and we know this because GW does it from time to time.

    Now part of this belief is stoked by the excuses GW offers when people complain about game balance.

    "It isn't us, it's you," has long been their go-to response.

    "We built this beautiful game and then you hyper-competitive people ruined it. Oh, by the way, check out the new rules for this absolutely unstoppable model, available for a limited time only at the low price of $100."

    Herohammer happened because that was what GW wanted to build. When it didn't work out, they backpedaled and then went in a different direction.

    But it was a deliberate decision each time. No one goes through the painstaking process of doing all that design work, editing, printing and distribution without knowing exactly what they are selling.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.

    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  4. #144
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    I think it's absolutely naive to think that ANY of GW's rules didn't take outliers into consideration. Conflagration of Doom, for instance, doesn't have a cap. If random decides, you can get a ridiculous number of hits. I've seen some high number amounts on several capless random shot weapons, and I don't doubt for a second that GW was more than aware that it could land that way. Their mindset with 0-1 told you that they did believe in caps, and 7th did away with that completely. It seemed that the caps they placed on things fluctuated from area to area of the game, but ultimately it was always about what sold models. The Appendix lists of 6th Ed. WFB gave a nice alternative for people who wanted something flavorful that violated the 0-1 restriction, but also penalized you in other areas. Being permission only also helped keep the lists in friendly games instead of tourneys. 5th didn't limit you nearly enough, and 8th was a return to that.

  5. #145

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    The problem was that GW conflated "balance" with "randomness." They are very different things.

    GW's designers seemed to take a perverse delight in someone winning a game simply by rolling four 6s on four dice. Most people find that annoying.

    Of course there should be a place for chance, but too many of GW's rules seemed to relish in creating chaos for its own sake.

    Consider their rules for war machines, particularly guess weapons. The "guessing" part gets pretty easy in the hands of a veteran player and it was entirely forseeable that people would use them to snipe high-value targets. Yet instead of simply using BS to hit like everything else (and for which they have a whole section of existing rules), GW created a new area for players to min-max (and argue about min-maxing).

    Thus you get situations where someone know the exact distance to the wizard in the backfield and so they call the shot "a little long" (just to be safe) and what do you know, the scatter/artillery die plants it right on target! What are the odds?

    It's the same kind of thing.

    Just to be clear, I'm coming around to allowing more chaos on the tabletop, but only within defined parameters. For example, I'm going to include an "infighting" rule in Conqueror 2.0 because I think there is a place for having an army that goes a little crazy each turn.

    But that's a far cry from drawing the right card, tossing dice and effectively winning the game because of that, rather than anything done on the field.

    And then having GW express surprise that such a thing could have happened.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.

    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  6. #146
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Range guessing was introduced in the 4th edition (with a sort of trial version for Empire mortars half a year before that, in WD147). Before that in 3rd edition mortars or stonethrower shooting simply worked by placing a template over the target and then rolling D20 to determine whether the shot scattered or not (and in which direction).

    Cannons in 3rd edition on the other hand did not need to roll for anything - you just pointed the gun in the right direction and it would hit automatically targets in the path (a bit like the Skaven warplightning-cannon in later years). I have to admit that auto-hitting shooting weapons are not really to my taste, since they end up negating all effect of to-hit modifiers and such; unfortunately those showed up also in later days, such as in the form of 6th edition Helblaster volley guns and ratling guns. Of which the latter was surprisingly safe to use for a Skaven contraption.

    Bolt throwers seem to have been the war machine that has rules-wise remained simplest and most consistent through the various editions. Already back in the 3rd edition it rolled against BS to hit, but potentially capable of hurting targets in multiple ranks.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  7. #147
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
    After digging out my Big Box of Cards and delving around it for half an hour or so, I managed to locate both of the cards that Galadrin and Arnizipal posted and I can inform that:

    1.) The card that Arnizipal first posted is actually from the 5th edition magic supplement.
    2.) The other card that Galadrin posted is instead from the 4th edition magic supplement.

    The difference becomes evident once you check the reverse side of the card, since those are quite different for the two editions in style. 4th edition has identical reverse side for all items (black with magic colour circle and text "Magic Item") while the 5th edition reverse sides are more varied and include text specifying the type of the item and the name of the item.

    As for why the designers decided to shorten the description while going from 4th to 5th edition I cannot say.
    I... wow... that is bizarre. You know what, even the card itself looks better in 4th. This is just pushing me back to my conviction that 5e has the best rulebook (it's beautiful, it's clear, the rules work great) and 4e had the best supplements. The greatest edition for me is the 5e rulebook and battle book combined with the 4e army books, magic boxes, Chronicles of War and Chaos box set. I don't use 5e army books for that reason and I guess I'll steer clear of the 5e magic box as well!

  8. #148

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Was there a 4th edition book for Empire? The 5th edition one sucks.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.

    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  9. #149
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Empire army book was one of the first ones released for the 4th edition - actually a lot of it was based on material published in WD issues 146-152 just before 4th edition came out.

    The 5th edition one was the same book, though it may have had a few pages added to the end - eg. the "Collecting an Empire army" section.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  10. #150
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    I would argue the 4e Empire army book is in line with the 4e High Elves (who were arguably the most basic army in the game, since they essentially did not use any special rules at all). Next came Orcs & Goblins, who were perhaps a smidge more powerful. Then Dwarfs, Undead and Chaos who were much more powerful. Then Dark Elves and Wood Elves seemed like an attempt to strike a middle ground between the early weaker books and the powerful army books that followed. I would rank the relative power of the books as follows:

    High Elves
    Empire
    Orcs & Goblins
    ...
    Dark Elves
    Wood Elves
    ...
    Dwarfs
    Undead
    Chaos

    That said, I have a full Empire and somewhat full High Elves army from that era and I enjoyed playing them regardless! It would depend at least in part with the opponent, however... some players were WAAC prats and it was never fun playing those guys (and, oddly enough, on the rare occasion that I would beat a WAAC Chaos player, he would throw a fit, shout obscenities and nearly flip the table).

  11. #151

    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    I would argue the 4e Empire army book is in line with the 4e High Elves (who were arguably the most basic army in the game, since they essentially did not use any special rules at all). Next came Orcs & Goblins, who were perhaps a smidge more powerful. Then Dwarfs, Undead and Chaos who were much more powerful. Then Dark Elves and Wood Elves seemed like an attempt to strike a middle ground between the early weaker books and the powerful army books that followed. I would rank the relative power of the books as follows:

    High Elves
    Empire
    Orcs & Goblins
    ...
    Dark Elves
    Wood Elves
    ...
    Dwarfs
    Undead
    Chaos

    That said, I have a full Empire and somewhat full High Elves army from that era and I enjoyed playing them regardless! It would depend at least in part with the opponent, however... some players were WAAC prats and it was never fun playing those guys (and, oddly enough, on the rare occasion that I would beat a WAAC Chaos player, he would throw a fit, shout obscenities and nearly flip the table).
    Of course he would - he picked that army because it won. By failing to win, he was denied his expected payoff.

    I have to say I find the whole "make the bad guys super powerful" thing is fine in fiction, but really irritating in a competitive game.

    One of the reasons I preferred 6th was that Empire actually had a decent list capable of holding its own without resorting to oddball army selection to win. True, I lamented the demise of my Reiksguard foot, but the new greatswords were absolutely brilliant. The High Elves were okay, too, except for that utterly asinine "intrigue" rule.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.

    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  12. #152
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadrin View Post
    4e High Elves (who were arguably the most basic army in the game, since they essentially did not use any special rules at all).
    Got to agree, even the rules for their special characters (there were only 3) were so simple that they would fit in a single page (though their magic items took some more space elsewhere in the book). But they got some pretty awesome fluff in the book - possibly penned by Bill King who was participating in quite a lot of books around 1992-1994.

    When their book got rewritten during the 5th edition, the authors ended up adding quite a load of new special rules and characters. Especially the white lions ended up receiving a lot of rules.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  13. #153
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar von Toussaint View Post
    Of course he would - he picked that army because it won. By failing to win, he was denied his expected payoff.

    I have to say I find the whole "make the bad guys super powerful" thing is fine in fiction, but really irritating in a competitive game.

    One of the reasons I preferred 6th was that Empire actually had a decent list capable of holding its own without resorting to oddball army selection to win. True, I lamented the demise of my Reiksguard foot, but the new greatswords were absolutely brilliant. The High Elves were okay, too, except for that utterly asinine "intrigue" rule.
    This is line by line everything I would ever say about this specific subject. I wish I could enshrine this post in bronze.



    The only thing I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish would have stayed in the HE army from 5th and conversely Ravening Hordesfd would be the Citizen Levy rule for Archers. They didn't change in points from Ravening Hordes, but lost a rule that those points covered. Useless, especially when every comparable ballistic unit could do their job better, cheaper, or both.

  14. #154
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
    When their book got rewritten during the 5th edition, the authors ended up adding quite a load of new special rules and characters. Especially the white lions ended up receiving a lot of rules.
    I did a count once. The 4e book had one simple special rule (for Swordmasters) and the 5e book had something around 30 special rules. Ugh. I'll take the simpler 4e High Elves any day of the week, even though (or, more accurately, because) they are not overpowered.

    4e High Elves vs 4e The Empire are probaby some of the best games of Warhammer you'll ever get. It comes completely down to how well you utilize the different unit types... chariots and spear phalanx vs handgunners and Ritterknecht. It plays like ancient Greece versus Renaissance Germany. In fact, I'd argue there is an inverse relationship between where an army falls on that list of power and how fun it is to actually play as and play against. Point in case, 4e Orcs & Goblins versus 4e Orcs & Goblins is also pretty fun...
    Last edited by Galadrin; 07-01-2018 at 18:21.

  15. #155
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Actually, if you look very carefully there are a few more special rules: one of them gives the dragons a bonus on monster reaction chart if their rider becomes a casualty - and the other one is a special rule for Eltharion giving him a couple of bonuses should he ever face Grom the Paunch in close combat.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  16. #156
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
    Actually, if you look very carefully there are a few more special rules: one of them gives the dragons a bonus on monster reaction chart if their rider becomes a casualty - and the other one is a special rule for Eltharion giving him a couple of bonuses should he ever face Grom the Paunch in close combat.
    Ah, very true, good eye! I never noticed those because I have yet to get my gorgeous, all white-metal (including wings!) High Elf Dragon onto the table. Sadly, I don't think they ever made a model for Eltharion in the 4e/5e era.

  17. #157
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Was Eltharion still mounted on Stormwing in 4th? I know he was in 5th, and they most assuredly had a model of him. He's sitting on my shelf as we speak until I get a plastic griffon and rider from the Isle of Blood set.

  18. #158
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    I am pretty certain that there was a model of Eltharion mounted on Griffon released in the early 4th edition days.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  19. #159
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    After some digging, I found out that Eltharion model was released in early 1993.

    You can see it on the 4th edition HE army book too - painted in the middle, plus an unpainted model and parts diagram in the back model section.
    Who is Griefbringer? Read his poem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cenyu
    Since World of Warcraft players manage to get themselves killed due to exhaustion, why should Griefbringer not manage to get himself killed with a regiment of table top miniatures. YouŽd be a pioneer.

  20. #160
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    Re: Some 4th/5th/6th ed. questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Griefbringer View Post
    After some digging, I found out that Eltharion model was released in early 1993.

    You can see it on the 4th edition HE army book too - painted in the middle, plus an unpainted model and parts diagram in the back model section.
    Oh crud, you're right, and he's even right there on the cover art of the 4e box set (probably one of the most iconic images of all of 4e). And to make it worse, I even own that dude in shrink! I think I just never realized it was Eltharion... I need to read the special characters section in the army book again more closely...

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