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Thread: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

  1. #1
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    Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Straight from the horse's mouth
    • Open, narrative and matched play - Okay, we already have two of these. Narrative will be interesting
    • Command Points - Rewarding you for building fluffy armies. Looks to be an expansion on command benefits from detachments/formations.
    • Movement stats - They're back, baby.
    • Shooting - Changing the way armor saves work, bringing back modifiers.
    • Morale - Making morale checks more like Age of Sigmar, also making leadership and morale matter for all armies again.
    Interesting. Very interesting.
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  2. #2
    Chapter Master nagash66's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Some i can support ( points 1,3,4) some that sound less then great (2,5). But 40k needs a rule shakedown, but more importantly if they just go about turning out some crazy codexes for certain factions again the core rules no matter how great will not matter.

    What harmed 40k in my area were things like codex eldar and necron. More then any issue with the core rules.
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    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    I'm really excited by this, particularly the return of Movement as a stat (something I've been banging on about for a while) and armour save modifiers. Dare I hope that cover saves modifiers will also apply? And range modifiers? Eeeee!

    Morale is a bit of a hit/miss with me though. I'm not keen on the idea of extra casualties although I suppose I can rationalise it as fleeing in the face of the enemy rather than 'suicide/killed'. We shall see how it pans out.
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  4. #4
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    3 Ways to Play

    The General’s Handbook has been one of the most popular rules supplements we’ve ever released. Who’d have thought letting people choose how they wanted to play their games and giving them a clear way to do that would be so popular…? It’s pretty clear from talking to a number of event organisers, that Warhammer 40,000 would benefit from the same approach. So we’ll soon be introducing the same 3 ways to play – open, narrative and matched play – to the 41st Millennium.
    So we don't think that the General's Handbook was primarily popular because it re-introduced a way of playing a more-or-less balanced game (ie. points)?

    I mean, these event organisers aren't going to be running Open Play tournaments, are they?


    Army Selection

    One of the things that comes up a lot is the idea that people should be rewarded for taking thematic armies. It’s a sentiment we agree with and so we’re looking at introducing Command points. A mechanism to reward players who structure their army like their in-world counterparts, with rerolls and cool army specific rules throughout the game.
    Define 'thematic'..?

    A Riptide Wing is thematic, but I don't think you should necessarily be given additional; 'reward' for spamming Riptides...

    My worry would be that unless your theme is one of a limited number of rules-sanctioned themes, you'll effectively be putting yourself at a disadvantage in-game. Thus you end up with a situation where players are actively punished for choosing certain themes, which would seem to be entirely contrary to the intent.
    You can already see this effect with detachments and formations - why would a Necron player not take a Decurion, for example. Effectively punishing those who's theme isn't that of a Necron line formation.


    Movement

    We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it’ll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.
    Well technically, you only need to know the rules for your own models now.

    Realistically, you're going to need to remember the movement stats of your opponent's models too, and remembering the bespoke rules of every model certainly sounds like more work than remembering the narrow selection of current core rules.


    Shooting

    Armour save modifiers. This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we’re going to bring them back. Every weapon will have its place in your army and better represent how you imagine them working in your head.
    So Gauss weapons are going to chew straight through Terminator armour? Cool!

    Also, trololol Sisters.


    Combat Phase

    Charging units should fight first. It’s just more thematic. So we’re hoping to work this out as well. It will reward tactically outmanoeuvring your opponent. You can dictate the combats rather than being entirely Initiative based. You control who swings first.
    ...Wha..? Why is that more thematic..? How does that make any sense?

    'It's just more thematic'. Is this like Poe's Law for 40k? That literally reads like a parody of itself.


    Morale

    Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We’re thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties.
    That mechanic is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

    Basically, no units will ever fall back. Great. That really represents battlefield morale perfectly. Bravo.
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  5. #5
    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    ...Wha..? Why is that more thematic..? How does that make any sense?
    Well, er, because, um, chainswords! And stuff. Also presumably it will reflect the shock impact of a charge, and hopefully occupying defended positions will mean that the charge breaks and the defenders strike first or something. Bear in mind that having offensive grenades made you strike first on the charge at one point at least. 4th? 5th? Can't remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    That mechanic is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

    Basically, no units will ever fall back. Great. That really represents battlefield morale perfectly. Bravo.
    Ah, see, that's my concern. If that's the only impact of a failed morale test, rather than withdrawal, or becoming pinned... that'd be bad. I can see it working in a close combat though. Maybe it is an abstraction of a unit disintegrating under fire? Individuals becoming combat ineffective and fleeing, or slipping into battle-shock and becoming incapable of further action?
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  6. #6
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen.Steiner View Post
    Ah, see, that's my concern. If that's the only impact of a failed morale test, rather than withdrawal, or becoming pinned... that'd be bad. I can see it working in a close combat though. Maybe it is an abstraction of a unit disintegrating under fire? Individuals becoming combat ineffective and fleeing, or slipping into battle-shock and becoming incapable of further action?
    If it's supposed to represent individuals running off, or just hiding, or whatever, that's as un-thematic a rule as I've ever seen - when was the last time we read anything about Marines just legging it away from their units when coming under fire, or Necrons sneaking away to hide?

    Plus, it would seem to make all single-model units effectively fearless.
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  7. #7
    Chapter Master Rogue Star's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    So basically, what you're saying GW is... WH40K 3rd edition onwards were a big mistake, and now lets go back to 2nd?
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  8. #8
    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    If it's supposed to represent individuals running off, or just hiding, or whatever, that's as un-thematic a rule as I've ever seen - when was the last time we read anything about Marines just legging it away from their units when coming under fire, or Necrons sneaking away to hide?

    Plus, it would seem to make all single-model units effectively fearless.
    I guess in those instances it would represent maybe extra casualties caused by enemy action... still not great though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Star View Post
    So basically, what you're saying GW is... WH40K 3rd edition onwards were a big mistake, and now lets go back to 2nd?
    Looks like it! :P
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  9. #9
    Chapter Master Bob Hunk's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    If this pans out, then I could not be happier! My heart has always belonged to 2nd Edition.
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  10. #10
    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    The only thing that gives me pause for thought is, given 2nd's notorious speed issues surrounding combat... I wonder what crazed hybrid of AoS, 2nd, and 3-7th mechanics we'll get to enable speedy battles of upwards of 70 figures a side plus vehicles and flyers and super-heavies?
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  11. #11
    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    What people with rose tinted glasses don't tell you is 2nd ed was a terrible, literally unplayable game and ASMs never worked in 40k.
    They were terrible in RT and 2nd ed, they would need to be totally different now. They create terrible imbalances that made armour basically worthless and there is no real way to fix them... Still the people who are nostalgic will likely buy this as well as current 40k players so I guess its a good marketing move, just unfathomable as a game decision.

    We'll have to see about the Morale change it doesn't sound like an improvement but I'll give it a chance.

    Everything else is cosmetic so meh.
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  12. #12
    Chapter Master silverstu's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Change is good, I like change.. interesting in lots of ways. I think I hope they tidy the codex and supplement stuff up a bit. They seem to have AoS better organised with individual unit cards, free rules and the Generals Handbook gathers everything together and a cheap format and one they intend on updating annually.It seems more accessible and more dynamic. The battleshock thing doesn't bother me- It should speed things up a little in CC and I'm sure there will be ways of mitigating the effect. I like some of the 2nd ed stuff coming back too with movement and save modifiers. Interesting times..
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Its all about balance really. If they have a balanced ruleset then I think it will be a hit. Bad ruleset and with the background changes they could have a problem. I am cautiously optimistic, as I hope they have learned from their previous major re-release (AoS).
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  14. #14

    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    I welcome the "three ways to play" making its way to 40K. While I enjoy competitive gaming, I feel it can lead to a narrowing of army choices and unit choices and become stale very quickly. Providing some support for narrative play and open play should raise their profile a little and hopefully offer a nice change of pace. Still as the AoS release shows, having a competitive framework is important. By removing points not only do you isolate the competitive crowd but you also make pick-up games with unfamiliar opponents more difficult. I think this will be a good move by GW, having learned the need to embrace all three from AoS.

    The return of some 2nd edition mechanics are welcome as that was by far my favourite version of 40K (despite its many flaws). It will be impossible to evaluate the merits of these changes until they are seen as part of the game as a whole, but I am optimistic.

    A quick note on the morale changes. I actually think it works pretty well in AoS. There is a risk of it feeling inappropriate for certain armies, so I guess how the explanatory narrative is written will be important (fleeing from combat does not make sense for all armies).
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    Chapter Master Lars Porsenna's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by silverstu View Post
    Change is good, I like change.. interesting in lots of ways. I think I hope they tidy the codex and supplement stuff up a bit. They seem to have AoS better organised with individual unit cards, free rules and the Generals Handbook gathers everything together and a cheap format and one they intend on updating annually.It seems more accessible and more dynamic. The battleshock thing doesn't bother me- It should speed things up a little in CC and I'm sure there will be ways of mitigating the effect. I like some of the 2nd ed stuff coming back too with movement and save modifiers. Interesting times..
    Battleshock bothers me A LOT. A HUGE detraction from AoS (amongst other things I should say). The problem I have with it is that, in an attempt to simplify the game and speed up melee combat, they created a rule that breaks the suspension of disbelief, so to speak. The other issue will be how they handle vehicles...whether they act more like armor or if they become just big tracked monsters with wounds.

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    Chapter Master Bloodknight's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    What people with rose tinted glasses don't tell you is 2nd ed was a terrible, literally unplayable game and ASMs never worked in 40k.
    Can't agree. 2nd. edition was the most fun I ever had with 40K. And ASM in 40K2 would have worked (certainly better than AP, which is kind of a terrible mechanic, which we can see nicely in the current meta where nobody takes weapons that don't have either a silly high cadence and strength or AP2. Who cares for AP3 or 4, when was the last time you saw someone spending points on a heavy bolter upgrade?) if two things had not happened: 1: basically every weapon got one 2: they were overall way too high, so armour was really only something Terminators had.
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    Chapter Master Lion El Jason's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodknight View Post
    Can't agree. 2nd. edition was the most fun I ever had with 40K. And ASM in 40K2 would have worked (certainly better than AP, which is kind of a terrible mechanic, which we can see nicely in the current meta where nobody takes weapons that don't have either a silly high cadence and strength or AP2. Who cares for AP3 or 4, when was the last time you saw someone spending points on a heavy bolter upgrade?) if two things had not happened: 1: basically every weapon got one 2: they were overall way too high, so armour was really only something Terminators had.
    Nah, 2nd ed basically proved ASM simply didn't work. Space marines in 3rd + have 3+ saves. Marines in 2nd ed had 4+ saves at best, and were the worst thing in the game. Good weapons far outstripped good armour and the game became eldar40000.
    It was a bad mechanic and best left dead.

    What AP does is means marines have good armour, thats what we want, while AP values and availability of weapons is badly written, GW are not getting any better at that. I have little to no faith in their design team, they haven't had a success since 2nd edition Blood Bowl (Which the current edition of was just a direct copy with almost no changes) everything since then has been amateurish at best and straight up terrible at worst.

    ASM is coming back to try to get the nostalgia ££, it simply cannot be argued to be a good mechanic by anyone who knows what they are talking about.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    So... some good(movement stat), some bad(ASF on charge), and some general ambivalence(battleshock, modified saves)... ultimately though, I'm staying pessimistic about this, as they stubbornly refuse to mention the biggest flaw with the current system: the rules-bloat. In fact, I can't help but notice how them mentioning punish-errm... "rewarding" us with MOAR REULEZ for every single unit, with additional whipping for taking thematic armies... which is pretty much what they already do with formations, true, but I was hoping for LESS of that, rather than more...

    How hard would it be to just say "competitive gameplay is to play with only a single detachment from a single codex, without any additional advantages for either player".
    That one line could singlehandedly save this game....
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  19. #19

    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    ...Wha..? Why is that more thematic..? How does that make any sense?

    'It's just more thematic'. Is this like Poe's Law for 40k? That literally reads like a parody of itself.



    That mechanic is bad and you should feel bad for suggesting it.

    Basically, no units will ever fall back. Great. That really represents battlefield morale perfectly. Bravo.
    Agreed when I saw those two I immediately thought what the absolute hell are they thinking. Ah yes my fearless space marines are going to suicide or flee to never return after failing a leadership test? Also what about less stupid stuff. A guard unit with no grenades gets into combat with a dreadnought. That makes sense to run away from, and then regroup. But no new rules are a few suicide?


    Also charging first = first in combat. How is that more thematic? Have they forgotten the opening thematic of one of their big hobby lines? Lotr when the elves are all lines up and decimate the first charging orcs. That is exactly what fast/light footed combat troops should do against slow moving hordes.
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  20. #20
    Chapter Master Bloodknight's Avatar
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    Re: Big Changes for 40k 8th Edition

    Space marines in 3rd + have 3+ saves. Marines in 2nd ed had 4+ saves at best, and were the worst thing in the game. Good weapons far outstripped good armour and the game became eldar40000.
    The game is Eldar 40K now, or not?
    You're basically just quoting me. The problem with ASM was that basically every single gun except for autoguns and bows had a negative ASM, sometimes high ones (shuriken catapult). All ASM needs to work is that basic guns have none and heavy weapons and power weapons don't basically automatically use a -6 (which is pretty much the equivalent of AP2, if you think about it. Nowadays the difference is just that you get a 3+ armor sometimes and most of the time you get none at all if someone shoots you. Also nobody takes normal power weapons anymore because at AP3 they suck against units that you think you'd need a power weapon for...)

    Ah yes my fearless space marines are going to suicide or flee to never return after failing a leadership test?
    Stormcast Eternals can mitigate that with a command ability. Also SM would need to take quite a few losses for this to happen, high LD and all.

    A guard unit with no grenades gets into combat with a dreadnought. That makes sense to run away from, and then regroup. But no new rules are a few suicide?
    In AoS you can voluntarily retreat from CC - why shouldn't this be a part of the new 40K, too?
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