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Thread: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

  1. #601
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    @Voss fair play I do like to assume things, and I know what that can lead to! Thing is Ive played AoS since its release and seen these rules and all the special rules that interact with them in practice - and i think theyre great!

    I like the distinction between the unit making a tactical, orderly withdrawal in the Movement phase, then failing a morale test in the Morale phase representing troops being ground underfoot, individuals (rather than the unit) fleeing the field, or succumbing to their injuries, or (my favourite) soldiers staying behind to get the critically injured to safety. Maybe they shouldve just called it Battleshock, which i think is nice and vague and doesnt come with the preconceptions associated with the old Morale rules.
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  2. #602
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny View Post
    Nids and Orks have ways to mitigate losses from moral, not ignore them.
    A well built nid army will outright ignore them until it doesn't matter anymore. Orks are more mitigation, but you have to burn down the hordes the hard way before you can hope to do any morale damage to the meganobs or burnaboyz riding along next to them. It doesn't matter if you kill all but one of an effective ork unit, if there is a morale blob nearby, they don't care.

    As for complaints of the morale rules favoring hordes; wasn't this always the case?
    Under all previous editions of the game, if you suffer 25% casualties you had to take a morale check. Which unit is more likely to have to take these tests, a 30 strong horde, or a 5 man elite unit?
    The horde, unless unlucky. It was more likely to take casualties, due to some combination of lower WS, T and armor. But keep in mind, in 8th, rubric marines run off and drop dead from heart attacks. The what is 'immune or mucks about with morale' is either really random or a bolt-on feature of hordes, not something fluff based.

    Would you feel happier if the same effects were achieved by stats? If Nids in synapse range had their leadership boosted to 456, and Nurgle zombies were given a leadership of 777?
    (Of course this issue there would be that this would make zombies immune to other effects based on leadership such a psychic powers)
    At least it would be consistent, rather than a bunch of special snowflake rules. (The death of USRs is a huge step backwards in terms of design).

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Marius View Post
    I like the distinction between the unit making a tactical, orderly withdrawal in the Movement phase, then failing a morale test in the Morale phase representing troops being ground underfoot, individuals (rather than the unit) fleeing the field, or succumbing to their injuries, or (my favourite) soldiers staying behind to get the critically injured to safety. Maybe they shouldve just called it Battleshock, which i think is nice and vague and doesnt come with the preconceptions associated with the old Morale rules.
    They should just call it Instability, since that's what it is. The unit magically takes more wounds in the end phase, unless they have especially customized anti-magic rules that prevent that kind of damage.
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  3. #603
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Me I like the Magic Carpet phase where each model gets magically lifted off the table then reappears nearby as if by magic. Then theres the Magic Missiles phase where I roll a bunch of dice for whatever reason and some of my opponent's models vanish into thin air, unless they have especially customised anti-magic rules that prevent that kind of damage (like high toughness, good armour saves, invulnerable saves, negative hit or wound modifiers, extra saves, cover, lots of wounds... blimey some of these models are almost immune to being removed unless you can just slog through all their exceptions to being removed from the table!) See also the Magic Melee Phase. Im not a fan of the Magic Spells phase tho, far too abstract!

    Apologies to anyone who accidentally read all that!
    Marius Stormwrought

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  4. #604
    Fighter of the Nightman Denny's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    A well built nid army will outright ignore them until it doesn't matter anymore..
    All I can say it when I play Nids they don't have unlimited sources of synapse. The fact that units have to stay in synapse range also restricts mobility; the flyrant can zoom off to kill something, but if he does he leaves the troops exposed. Hormagaunts might be quick, but they can't just surge forward without support.

    If they was no synapse rule, do you think guants would be viable? Given their low toughness, lack of leadership and minimal saves they would simply be erased from the board in a turn or two. Those sort of troops simply don't work without some means of leadership mitigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Orks are more mitigation, but you have to burn down the hordes the hard way before you can hope to do any morale damage to the meganobs or burnaboyz riding along next to them. It doesn't matter if you kill all but one of an effective ork unit, if there is a morale blob nearby, they don't care.
    By 'the hard way' do you mean 'shoot them with anything as they have minimal saves nda die by the truckload to massed bolter fire, let alone special weapons? Again, I just cannot see how orks would work without moral mitigation. They have had some rule to this effect since 3rd edition; there is a reason for this . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    The horde, unless unlucky. It was more likely to take casualties, due to some combination of lower WS, T and armor.
    Isn't that the answer to the question 'which unit dies quicker, one with lower WS, T and armor or one with higher WS, T and armor'?

    Its a correct answer, but I'm not sure that was my question. Yeah, hordes tend to have lower stats because they are cheaper (though Orks are notably more resilient than Wyches). But that will still be the case now. The morale rules simply favour larger units; 10 orks suffer more than 30, 5 Chaos Marines more than 20. This has not changed. Suggesting the mechanic of the new morale rules now 'favour' hordes when it previously didn't is disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    At least it would be consistent, rather than a bunch of special snowflake rules. (The death of USRs is a huge step backwards in terms of design).
    I get people think its worse. I just don't think it will be in practice. Maybe it is simpler to say that Khorne berserkers get the special rules 'Rage and Counter Attack' (see another book for the meaning of these rules) rather than '+1 attack in the first round of combat'. We will find out when we play 8th.
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  5. #605
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Orks look extremely frustrating to play with or against- they have so many special rules!
    First there's the pesky triple-save, which seems all too common- and since one save is before rolling the damage and one comes after there's the potential for lots of exciting dice-passing and trying to remember which model took how many wounds!
    Then in any turn in which an Ork unit takes casualties you need to count up the number of Orks to see what it's Ld is (and as stats now go over 10 you can't just assume a maximum)- but hey, maybe one of those other units has more orks, so you'd better count up their models too!
    Finally, check for the Warboss and/or Nobz- and decide if you want to take the D3 casualties or possibly give all of the running orks yet another special save!

    On top of all of that it seems like they're getting a psychic power that sounds hideously abusable.

    Looks like they've really achieved their goal of making a simple, smooth, easy to play game... :/

    I get people think its worse. I just don't think it will be in practice. Maybe it is simpler to say that Khorne berserkers get the special rules 'Rage and Counter Attack' (see another book for the meaning of these rules) rather than '+1 attack in the first round of combat'. We will find out when we play 8th.
    One thing we have seen is that the Forgeworld Super-Dread has a special rule 'Dark Fury' to give it an extra attack when armed with two close combat weapons. That kind of indicates that even the extra attack from 2 hand weapons will be presented as a special snowflake rule for every unit. That's not simple, that's just a waste of space, since I'm sure even the newest kid can tell what the 'Extra attack' USR does within 3 seconds.

    Speaking of that super-dread, the power-level system looks seriously shoddy there. It has clear best weapons- there's not a question at all about siege claw vs siege drill- but hey, by power level they must be equal!
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  6. #606
    Fighter of the Nightman Denny's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Geep View Post
    One thing we have seen is that the Forgeworld Super-Dread has a special rule 'Dark Fury' to give it an extra attack when armed with two close combat weapons. That kind of indicates that even the extra attack from 2 hand weapons will be presented as a special snowflake rule for every unit. That's not simple, that's just a waste of space, since I'm sure even the newest kid can tell what the 'Extra attack' USR does within 3 seconds.
    Or it might mean not every unit with two weapon will get an extra attack, it will be instead include in the profile. Which might actually reduce some confusion from those units that always have two combat weapons and need to specify whether the extra attack is included in the profile or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geep View Post
    Speaking of that super-dread, the power-level system looks seriously shoddy there. It has clear best weapons- there's not a question at all about siege claw vs siege drill- but hey, by power level they must be equal!
    Yep. Everyone can see that one is better than the other. Therefore everyone who wants to optimize the weapons loadout will do as you suggest. Power Level can therefore be assumed to represent the best loadout for a unit. If someone chooses a different loadout for personal preference then they will be aware they are deliberately handicapping themselves for fun/fluff. Or if there is no clearly best loadout then the weapons are balanced and any combination is fine.

    Power level is a rough estimate for ease of comparison. You still have points for a more precise comparison if desired.
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  7. #607
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny View Post
    Instead of clean, clear ruleset with a simple set of commonalities, it's a giant list of exceptions and special snowflake nonsense.
    It's interesting that GW consciously moved from having lots of similar variations of rules which represented the same things (Furious Charge, Furious Assault, Berserk Charge...) to having a set of universal special rules (more or less, anyway) between 3rd and 4th editions in order to improve the game, and are now doing the exact opposite ...in order to improve the game.

    Either USRs weren't actually an improvement (/were actually detrimental) and GW just stuck with them regardless for three editions, or the removal of USRs isn't actually an improvement now.
    Neither scenario makes GW look great at rules design...
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  8. #608
    Fighter of the Nightman Denny's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    So 7th is now a clean clear ruleset?

    USR would be pretty clear if units didn't have loads of them, along with special snowflake rules on top and exceptions and additions, plus the USR that are comprised of several other USR.

    How about we try the new way and see if it is simpler?
    Oh, and as I have already noted, if everyone has special snowflake rules, then they aren't special snowflake rules. They're just rules.
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  9. #609
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Re the replacement of USRs with rules on the datasheet: i do prefer this approach as i honestly struggled to remember the sheer number of USRs in 7th ed, especially as so many units had extra variations on top of this. I especially didnt like the sheer amount of time it took to find rules as they were spread over multiple books. This new solution isnt perfect however - we already dont have all the rules on the one page (see references to ATSKNF and Death to the False Emperor), but hopefully this will be minimal. Experience with AoS has invariably shown that it takes several games to remember to use all the rules for my units, even with them all consolidated onto warscrolls! Ive found the best AoS games have been when each player keeps an eye on their opponents scrolls and reminds them if they miss something - a win isnt a real win if uve exploited an opponent with a rubbish memory (ie me!!)

    In other news good god those Inceptors are rocking two half range heavy bolters!!
    Marius Stormwrought

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  10. #610
    Chapter Master Wolf Lord Balrog's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny View Post
    How about we try the new way and see if it is simpler?
    Oh, and as I have already noted, if everyone has special snowflake rules, then they aren't special snowflake rules. They're just rules.
    The point in referring to the 8th Edition presentation of special rules as "special snowflake" is that they aren't part of the core rules, which USRs were. Also, potentially every unit could have its own unique version of every special rule. Its horrifically inelegant game design, making it virtually impossible to design an "all-comers" list, even harder than it was in 7th Ed. The result being that what happens in your 8th Ed games will often be dictated by the interactions of special rules that only one side in each interaction has any clue about. This leads to more of that un-fun feeling that you aren't *playing a game*, you're just watching a set-piece unfold, and winning or losing has little to do with what you decide during the game.

    Hey, maybe I'm wrong though. I would be delighted to be so.



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