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Thread: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

  1. #461
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    I love the combat weapon rules, fantastically characterful! Lools like +1A for a pistol and combat weapon is gone, as chainswords now give +1 attack as standard. Power weapons exchanging strength bonuses for ap is a great trade off. Powerfists look hard as hell, but with instant death gone they should be functionally the same. Reaper chainsword with damage 6 is gonna chop things up real good!
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  2. #462
    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    My Tactical Marines will continue to fight the good fight regardless. After all, my Imperial Guard infantry squads continue to pound the ground and die for the God-Emperor, why should the Astartes fare differently?

  3. #463
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Marius View Post
    I love the combat weapon rules, fantastically characterful! Lools like +1A for a pistol and combat weapon is gone, as chainswords now give +1 attack as standard.
    Maybe- haven't seen anything to indicate that models don't attack with both weapons. It seems puzzling right now, since we don't know a lot of equipment loadouts (Primaris intercessors stand out as not having chainswords). But consider that pistols also get a shot. Are Pistol/Chainsword units getting a shot, 2 chainsword attacks and a pistol attack, or is the pistol attack gone?
    Consider the freaking striking scorpions. Pistol shot, mortal wound attack mandiblasters and 2 chainsword strikes and maybe a pistol strike. Seems... strong.

    Power weapons exchanging strength bonuses for ap is a great trade off. Powerfists look hard as hell, but with instant death gone they should be functionally the same.
    Eh. It isn't all that diffferent. Mace and sword seem best to me. Axe is going half-heartedly in both directions.

    Don't like the fist at all. d3 wounds seems an unpleasant trade for -1 to hit, for same AP as swords. Certainly bad for guard models with fists.


    Reaper chainsword with damage 6 is gonna chop things up real good!
    Eh. Knight only, don't care.




    Quote Originally Posted by Warhammer Community
    perfect for grinding through hordes of low armoured troops, the chainsword now functions on the battlefield how it always has in your head.
    Er, no. What a strange statement.
    How chainswords work in my head is they get hung up and fail really quickly. They don't help chop faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by BramGaunt View Post
    I think they will replace tactical squads rather quickly. Form the pictures we saw we already know that there are also dedicated special weapon squads for them (assuming the datasheet we saw is complete and the intercessors really dont get any additional toys), and it stands to reason that they will also have dedicated CC units, heavy weapon squads (or tank/monsterkillers), etc, similar to how Legions have them. And I think the need for versatile units will start to diminish. While moving and shooting and split fire benefits tactical marines greatly, they will always be outperformed by dedicated "Kill X" units. Especially if these start to have 2 wounds each aswell. And with the AP of one these guys start to be a viable thread to ligh vehicles.

    Plus, if GW sees their new toy underperform in the game they will buff the rules asap.

    Sadly, I think the time of the tactical squad comes to an end.
    Well, I don't really think there ever was a 'time of the tactical squad'. Mostly people complained about having to take them at all.
    As for the other Primaris squads... I'm not so sure. At a higher base ppm, and special/heavy weapon costs on top they're going to be pretty pricey. Without a lot of stray bodies, they also take a higher penalty from proportionate damage- losing those pricey weapons faster.

    Theoretical Primaris assault squads on the other hand, I can see people favoring those. And I do think the Ap on the base squad is good. I just don't think it will rate compared to having real weapons in the squad, especially if the base per model cost is significantly higher. (And if heavy weapons can be taken for 5 man squads. If you must take 10, well, then. In that case, yeah, I'd largely want double wound, double attack with AP, rather than pay for 5 more bodies).
    Last edited by Voss; 19-05-2017 at 18:05.
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  4. #464
    Chapter Master Gen.Steiner's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    I've always seen chainswords as shock or terror weapons, making hideous wounds in unexposed flesh and hacking chunks of armour away. Heavy, brutal, aggressive weapons designed to slash and maul, not be quick with. Extra attacks? Weird.

    But hey ho. Makes my Black Templars extra choppy!

  5. #465
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Using Catachan models instead of Cadians? Sucks to be you - no chainswords!

  6. #466
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Maybe- haven't seen anything to indicate that models don't attack with both weapons. It seems puzzling right now, since we don't know a lot of equipment loadouts (Primaris intercessors stand out as not having chainswords). But consider that pistols also get a shot. Are Pistol/Chainsword units getting a shot, 2 chainsword attacks and a pistol attack, or is the pistol attack gone?
    Consider the freaking striking scorpions. Pistol shot, mortal wound attack mandiblasters and 2 chainsword strikes and maybe a pistol strike. Seems... strong.
    I'd guess shooting in CC REPLACES the extra attack; not only does it make more logical sense(that's what the extra attack was always supposed to represent), but it also keeps things from getting completely out of hand... while also stealth-nerfing previous special CCWs, as those no longer get the "free" extra power weapon attack from wielding a dinky little pistol in their offhand.
    Also? Gives you an actual reason to upgrade your pistols.


    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Eh. It isn't all that diffferent. Mace and sword seem best to me. Axe is going half-heartedly in both directions.
    Funny... I was thinking the opposite.
    Axe gives you +1 to wound against your fellow marines(which is basically 50% of the units in the game), but also against most big things(T8 seems more or less standard for everything from heavy tanks through knights), while still keeping a respectable amount of AP. The maces' S6 meanwhile would help against T5,6 & 10+... none of which seems overly common, and sacrifices your precious AP to do it... the sword is a strong contender due to AP being awesome, but wounding MEQ(your most common target) on a 4+ leaves it at second place.
    Regardless, I'd much prefer going back to ye olde' singular profile for ALL power weapons, as I'd prefer choosing the types for their fluff and looks rather than their battlefield effectiviness... and also because there's no rules for Power Shanks.
    Which is a terrible oversight, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Don't like the fist at all. d3 wounds seems an unpleasant trade for -1 to hit, for same AP as swords. Certainly bad for guard models with fists.
    You forget the 2x strength. Assuming marine on marine action, that's a +2 to wound most targets, already more than making up for the -1 to hit, even before considering the 3+ vs vehicles and 4+ against supersize(or whatever we end up calling the unified heavy tank/really monstrous creature/mini-titan class threats).
    Personally, I really like the -1 to hit; feels like a much more accurate depiction of fighting with an unwieldy weapon than always striking last, while also keeping it back just a notch, but I would never call it a weak choice.
    Mind you, they're probably gonna be crazy expensive to boot... kinda thinking the chainsword's gonna be the standard go-to weapon for squad leaders, really, while most characters will be running axes or relics(if those are still in).


    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Eh. Knight only, don't care.
    Agreed, though I will say I find it interesting that the giant centrepiece super-model of doom operates without RNG, considering that's where such things tend to be at their most tense... I.E. I was really expecting it to be either D6+3, or just straight up 2D6...


    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Well, I don't really think there ever was a 'time of the tactical squad'. Mostly people complained about having to take them at all.
    As for the other Primaris squads... I'm not so sure. At a higher base ppm, and special/heavy weapon costs on top they're going to be pretty pricey. Without a lot of stray bodies, they also take a higher penalty from proportionate damage- losing those pricey weapons faster.
    Well, the "basic" intercessor squad has been stated to not have any specials or heavies... it's "just" a bolter squad, and that's one of the two things I actually like about them; it brings the focus onto the marines themselves, and their ability to blast xenos apart with rapid-firing rocket launchers, rather than being glorified bulletsponges to protect the sarge and his cadre of specialists.
    The other thing I like about them is their visual design.
    Heck, had they been "just" marines wearing a fancy new mark of armour, carrying a new generation of weapons, and trying out some fancy new tactics, I would've probably been on board with the whole thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Theoretical Primaris assault squads on the other hand, I can see people favoring those. And I do think the Ap on the base squad is good. I just don't think it will rate compared to having real weapons in the squad, especially if the base per model cost is significantly higher. (And if heavy weapons can be taken for 5 man squads. If you must take 10, well, then. In that case, yeah, I'd largely want double wound, double attack with AP, rather than pay for 5 more bodies).
    Y'know, I've been wondering... mayhap these ARE the new assault marines...?
    I mean sure, they've got up-gunned boltguns, but they're not THAT upgunned - the real gain of the squad is the extra attack and wound, which would put them roughly on par with "classic" assault marines in damage output. I could easily see the idea behind them being that you shoot while closing the distance, the extra range ensuring that you won't need a transport, and rather than stop at rapid-fire range, you go all the way, smashing into close combat, and out-doing all but dedicated CC-specialists, who are instead locked in place against your ultra-survivable two-wound marines until one of your own elites can come along to finish the job.
    Not bad for a "mere" troop choice.

    ...possibly a bit TOO good...
    ...
    Ok, fine, there's probably gonna be a jump-pack version too. though I'm not sure how much those are really gonna bring to the table; their bonus speed would be quite effectively off-set by not killing anything before hitting the front lines, and the bonus attack from your standard-issue chainsword doesn't have quite as much bite when given to what I presume to be a smaller squad whose members already had two attacks to start with.
    Heck, assuming the standard 10-man tactical, 5-man assault squad sizes stay the same, we're looking at 20 attacks for the "tacticals"(intercessor), to only 15 for the "assault", as opposed to the 10-10 balance for classic marines(excluding sergeants).

    EDIT:
    @Lord Damocles:
    Guardsmen are S3, and most likely WS4+, with no buffs to CC. One bonus attack ain't gonna change squat.
    Last edited by theJ; 19-05-2017 at 22:32.
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  7. #467

    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    It is possible that the intercessor squads are really just the basic combat squad dynamics. They are the basic half with the bolters. You then have the specialist portion represented by a separate squad. While they might be separate squads, depending how the army building works you might take one of the intercessors per specialist.

  8. #468
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by barrangas View Post
    It is possible that the intercessor squads are really just the basic combat squad dynamics. They are the basic half with the bolters. You then have the specialist portion represented by a separate squad. While they might be separate squads, depending how the army building works you might take one of the intercessors per specialist.
    Possible I suppose, but for combat losses and other table top functions, that doesn't matter. Dropping a battlecannon shot on a tactical squad or even a Primaris bolter squad isn't a great idea. Dropping it (or other decent weapons) on specialist squad _is_ a good idea (assuming the random number of shots doesn't make it moot), because you're killing threats (probably pricey threats). Specialist squads will take an inordinate amount of fire because every kill has a direct effect (and since the basic squad has a set size of 5, I'd assume the specialists do too)
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  9. #469

    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Possible I suppose, but for combat losses and other table top functions, that doesn't matter. Dropping a battlecannon shot on a tactical squad or even a Primaris bolter squad isn't a great idea. Dropping it (or other decent weapons) on specialist squad _is_ a good idea (assuming the random number of shots doesn't make it moot), because you're killing threats (probably pricey threats). Specialist squads will take an inordinate amount of fire because every kill has a direct effect (and since the basic squad has a set size of 5, I'd assume the specialists do too)
    Specialist squads will always draw fire. Think about some of the new rules though: you can fit multiple squads in a single transport and you have to start with half your army on the table. You could keep your specialists protected various ways while most of your forces in the opening phase are the basic intercessors out in the open.

  10. #470
    Commander Kisanis's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    Using Catachan models instead of Cadians? Sucks to be you - no chainswords!
    Hey man, for a long while they were the only plastics available!

    I'm liking chainswords getting rules again.

    Also, it was posted earlier.. But no pistols do not grant the extra attack in assault. They can shoot while engaged in assault in the shooting phase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonia View Post
    In other words as a rock player I find that changes to scissors are fair, balanced and reasonable but that paper has been made too strong in this edition and should be nerfed.

  11. #471
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    So read the update for Imperial Knights released as teaser. 24 wounds will be tough, but a tyranid large creature is supposed to be its equal. However, with the weakness to armor in combat, from what they showed with power fists, or chainfist a couple of terminators in close combat may just take that bad boy down. So open up with a land raider or drop pod weaponry then let termies unload and charge. Lose a terminator because of how damage has to be applied, but not more . Curious if there is a heavy weapon that would bypass the ion field, multimelta maybe?

  12. #472
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfkard View Post
    So read the update for Imperial Knights released as teaser. 24 wounds will be tough, but a tyranid large creature is supposed to be its equal. However, with the weakness to armor in combat, from what they showed with power fists, or chainfist a couple of terminators in close combat may just take that bad boy down. So open up with a land raider or drop pod weaponry then let termies unload and charge. Lose a terminator because of how damage has to be applied, but not more . Curious if there is a heavy weapon that would bypass the ion field, multimelta maybe?
    I wouldn't quite try this until we find out more about how stomps work.

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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    I like what a friend pointed out regarding reserves in matched play:
    If drop-pods count as their own unit, then an all drop-pod army would have to deploy on foot and have all of the pods come down empty (because that'd be half of your armies units in reserves).
    Of course I expect Drop-Pods and the like will be dedicated transports and have some way around this restriction, but I still found the idea amusing.

    The changes to vehicles seem kind of strange to me. I did find it irritating that so many vehicles were just immune to common weaponry, but the new system may be even more frustrating as your regular weapons are still very unlikely to do damage, and most of your lighter AV weapons will probably be even more useless (the D3 damage of a power fist is very weak!). Combine this with things generally needing to go below half wounds before they start to suffer penalties (and many of those penalties being pretty meaningless) and I'm left kind of confused as to the goal of the new system.
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  14. #474
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Re Knight v Termis, the thing has 4 attacks i believe, so could happily kill up to 4 of whatever is fighting it, then whatever Titanic Feet do. Interesting note it suggests Chaos Lords have 6 wounds, indication of more wounds for heroes across the board i hope!

    Re damage d3 on powerfists, that is gonna be brutal when applied to multiple attacks across a whole squad - my question is will the termi sergeant be stuck with a basic power sword AGAIN while his mates rock fists?
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  15. #475
    Commander Kisanis's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    I think swarming a knight with mid range assault units (power swords...they may be 6 to wound, but if they mod the save to a 6+ then you can just saturate it...)

    I play a lot of guard.. So im just happy that s3 isnt impossible..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonia View Post
    In other words as a rock player I find that changes to scissors are fair, balanced and reasonable but that paper has been made too strong in this edition and should be nerfed.

  16. #476
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Axe gives you +1 to wound against your fellow marines(which is basically 50% of the units in the game), but also against most big things(T8 seems more or less standard for everything from heavy tanks through knights), while still keeping a respectable amount of AP. The maces' S6 meanwhile would help against T5,6 & 10+... none of which seems overly common, and sacrifices your precious AP to do it... the sword is a strong contender due to AP being awesome, but wounding MEQ(your most common target) on a 4+ leaves it at second place.
    Going back to this... it doesn't make much difference. +16.67% in exchange for -16.67% is rather a wash. Axes would matter against T8 vehicles, but krak grenades are still a thing (and basic equipment), so you'd use those (S6 and 3 AP). Axes are better against armor 5+ (since the sword is then losing one of its 3 'pips'), but at that point you're probably better off with chainswords, just generating extra attacks.

    Maces do a couple things- they get to 4+ vs. big stuff (assuming some big critters stay in the t6 range), and get to 2+ to wound against t3 stuff where a high armor save isn't the major concern.

    Truthfully, if melee is just the straight attacks characteristic, I'm not quite convinced power weapons are worth the investment (unless they get cheaper), especially on sergeants- a chainsword seems more all purpose.

    Frankly 8th is going to run very heavily on the tyranny of mathematics. Once all the details, points, weapons and profiles for assault troops come in, its going to be very easy to sit down and solve for what works (and what is terrible).
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  17. #477
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    You know, being able to assault a knight with 100 homogaunts and bring it down with weight of numbers has long been a dream of mine, so that is a definite plus to me. So far, I like everything in the new Edition except the new marines, which look ill thought and desperate really. I watched the Q&A on facebook the other day and it was too obvious they were avoiding any of the difficult questions which was a real disappointment. For the New GW I was hoping to see them grab the bull by the horns and justify the game play role, but instead it was clear that the rules had to be better to force selling them. Quite disappointed with that.

    Though being able to take 3 superheavies for your army is a stunning change. Shadowsword companies are now officially a thing. I can sense that I am going to need to build and paint a third superheavy tank for my guard. I also suspect that Marines will get a superheavy of their own now, given that Roboute is back and bringing out Codex Astartes 2nd Ed. Fellblades may even return.
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  18. #478
    Archanist Lord Damocles's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Sureshot05 View Post
    New GW
    Just like Old GW, except more people buy into it...

  19. #479
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Damocles View Post
    Just like Old GW, except more people buy into it...
    No offence good sir, but this does come across as a shade dismissive.
    Old GW certainly wouldn't have teased a new edition in this manner to build the hype.
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  20. #480
    Commander Captain Marius's Avatar
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    Re: Warhammer 40k 8th Edition formally announced

    With all math hammering of power weapons its worth noting that we'll be seeing a bunch more +1 and -1 to hit and/or wound, and likely for ap too, from various special abilities and psychic powers. So itll be more about the combo than any one thing in isolation.

    Re the new marines, i guess their other option was to just replace the existing units with these better proportioned dudes. Im glad theyve taken the approach they have, though i am pretty sure a line wide cull will be coming anyway sooner or later, as the range is simply unsustainable at its current size.
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