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Thread: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

  1. #21
    Defender of teh Wastes DarthSte's Avatar
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    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    I really enjoyed Solo and would happily pay to see more films with these characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypaspist View Post
    The Evil Darth Ste (or TEDS as all shall now call him!)

  2. #22

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    What he's driving at, of course, is the fact that the way you look at the movies is shaped by the age at which you saw them.
    What he was doing was trying to disqualify me rather than addressing my argument, which is why I ignored it.

    People can separate sentiment from objectivity. I grew up during the Roger Moore era of James Bond, so in theory I should be most favorably disposed towards him.

    But his movies are some of the worst ones in the franchise.

    Also, the context matters. A movie that strikes out in a new direction, creating its own genre should get credit for originality and innovation even if a sequel manages to achieve higher production values.

    I assume that younger audiences will look more favorably at the movies that are being bashed now by old curmudgeons.
    And that's a shame, because older films (not just Star Wars) have a lot more substance and creativity than the current CGI demo reels.

    Just as with Star Trek or Doctor Who, you don't get "fandom" just with special effects - there has to be something more there in terms of story and characters.

    By any objective measure, the prequels are weak. The acting is terrible, the plots make no sense whatsoever and there's no real sense of joy as there was in the originals.

    Basically, they really are just a visual feast (which is fine) but I doubt anyone is going to line up for Jake Lloyd's autograph at the next ComicCon.

    As to Ewoks, I didn't mind them. They're more fully realized than Gungans and while people whined about them at the time (and some still do), I think a lot of that is just striking a pose - setting yourself aside as a more discerning viewer rather than a total fanboy. I actually saw it happen in real time, which was funny. People who hooted with delight when the Ewoks emerged afterwards pretended that they hated them from the get-go. The Ewoks were so hated, they got their own spin-off. Odd.

    If you look objectively at the series as a whole, Jedi is arguably the best of the lot in terms of its character development, complexity and the way it draws the disparate threads together. The culminating battle is a masterpiece of editing and building suspense as the tide of battle surges back and forth.

    Also of note is the emergence of Leia as an independent actor. In the original she's most there for commentary and to be rescued. She's defiant and has some withering one-liners, but that's about it.

    In Empire she gets a little more to do as part of the Rebel command, but mostly she's there for the love interest.

    But in Jedi we see her successfully infiltrate Jabba's palace, insert Chewie into the dungeon and then kill Jabba with nothing more than a chain (no mean feat). On Endor she kills a few scouts and also manages to earn the Ewoks' trust with nothing more than her wits, contrasting favorably with the mixed results of her companions. Finally, even when shot she keeps her head and drops two stormtroopers at point blank range.

    And she does that without being a Mary Sue.

    John Williams arguably hit his peak with the soundtrack, building on the leitmotifs of the other films and blending the themes into the culmination. The music of the prequels is largely forgettable.

    The "problem" stems from the hardcore fans who form a religious cult around the franchise and assign a metaphysical meaning to every frame, even though it was meant to be simple entertainment cinema, not a church.
    I think the problem is that there is an expectation that if one doesn't shuffle into the theater and watch whatever pap Disney cranks out, you're are denounced as a hater, misogynist, etc. It's an odd marketing tactic and I don't think it will work.
    Last edited by Commissar von Toussaint; 12-06-2018 at 00:02.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try the revised and expanded Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.
    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  3. #23
    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar von Toussaint View Post
    What he was doing was trying to disqualify me rather than addressing my argument, which is why I ignored it.

    People can separate sentiment from objectivity. I grew up during the Roger Moore era of James Bond, so in theory I should be most favorably disposed towards him.

    But his movies are some of the worst ones in the franchise.

    Also, the context matters. A movie that strikes out in a new direction, creating its own genre should get credit for originality and innovation even if a sequel manages to achieve higher production values.
    Ultimate Life Form put it better than I did, but I wasn't trying to discredit you personally.
    I just get tired of people presenting the Original Trilogy as flawless representations of the Sci-Fi genre while the other films are beyond redemption.
    Usually this has to do with (or is at least influenced by) the fond memories people have of seeing the older films as kids, thus being familiar with (and accepting) their flaws before they could make a critical opinion about it.

    So far I haven't been disappointed by the "A Star Wars Story" films.
    You should give them a try at least. They do attempt to add something new to the franchise.
    Come join the discussion at the Warseer Anime Fan Group

    Quote Originally Posted by MOMUS View Post
    Nah Arni, it's not your fault you're old and cranky

  4. #24

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnizipal View Post
    Ultimate Life Form put it better than I did, but I wasn't trying to discredit you personally.
    Well okay then.

    I just get tired of people presenting the Original Trilogy as flawless representations of the Sci-Fi genre while the other films are beyond redemption.
    They aren't sci-fi, they are space fantasy and pretty much defined the movie genre.

    Usually this has to do with (or is at least influenced by) the fond memories people have of seeing the older films as kids, thus being familiar with (and accepting) their flaws before they could make a critical opinion about it.
    I guess it may seem that way, but the originals were quite flawed and those of us of a certain age have pointed out each and every flaw in them for decades. I won't bore you with them, but they are many.

    The thing is, we can overlook those flaws because the films were revolutionary and also made on a very tight budget. No CGI, many shots (including F/X) were one take because film (actual celluoid) was expensive to buy and develop. So we cut them slack and marvel at the ingenuity.

    The issue for me is that with much more time, vastly greater resources and unlimited access to A-list talent we got fairly mediocre pictures that have to be graded on a curve. They don't really introduce anything new to the story (okay, they do, but I'll get to that in a minute) and the characters are utterly lame. Even the music is meh.

    Compare the power of Darth Vader's theme to any of the music that came since. Iconic. It's hard to catch that kind of lightning in a bottle twice.

    So far I haven't been disappointed by the "A Star Wars Story" films.
    Everyone has their own standard of taste. I freely admit mine is more exacting than it used to be. It's a function of getting old - I'm less inclined to waste time on crap.

    You should give them a try at least. They do attempt to add something new to the franchise.
    I did. I saw VII and hated it. It was largely recycled and the parts that were new, sucked.

    Similarly, I saw Rogue One and disliked it. It had some good moments, but the combination of bizarre plot decisions combined with the awful CGI Vader pr()n ruined it.

    So, having watched two disappointing movies, I fail to see why I should watch more.

    Now I'm sure you (and others) are thinking "see, old guy blinded by childhood memories" or something like that. It isn't that so much as objecting to wholesale re-writes of existing and beloved characters. It would be like a new set of movies following Harry Potter into adulthood and they have Ron be a white nationalist and Hermione turns into a crack whore. People might object.

    If Disney wanted to do something, they should have left the classic characters alone and made something ORIGINAL in the Star Wars universe. Then you don't have cranks like me refusing to watch it.

    Indeed, I think the cardinal mistake with Rogue One was to have ANY interaction with Vader or Leia or anyone in the high command involved. Make it smaller, more remote and maybe let a few characters survive and embark on a totally new adventure.

    Leave the original characters alone. Star Trek did that and it worked well.
    Last edited by Commissar von Toussaint; 12-06-2018 at 23:38.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try the revised and expanded Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.
    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  5. #25

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar von Toussaint View Post
    It would be like a new set of movies following Harry Potter into adulthood and they have Ron be a white nationalist and Hermione turns into a crack whore. People might object.
    No doubt, but what right do they have to? People don't own the characters. They only believe they do. And people, fictional or not, do change over time. In fact that's the very essence of fiction. Without change you have no plot, and without plot, you have no story. See where this goes? It's bad for business.

    If Hermione has a good, relatable reason to resort to crack (simply retconning her character doesn't cut it) then I'm all for it. Then again, I never had any stakes in Harry Potter.

  6. #26

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Breaking News:


    http://collider.com/star-wars-spinoffs-on-hold/

    That's right, despite being a success financially, the movie didn't make enough money for the greedy Disney Studios managers, especially compared to the main series, so there will be no more spinoffs.

    Just let that sink in.

    On the one hand one can be glad there will be no more 'unnecesary' movies and the milking stops right there. On the other hand, the reason for cancelling the other movies seems mind-baffling. Not profitable enough? Not content with several million dollars? Well, we all like to bash GW a lot for their greed but it seems there's always a bigger fish.


    Then again some sources report that the movie might not break even after all. We'll have to wait and see.
    Last edited by Ultimate Life Form; 21-06-2018 at 17:26.

  7. #27

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Life Form View Post
    Breaking News:


    http://collider.com/star-wars-spinoffs-on-hold/

    That's right, despite being a success financially, the movie didn't make enough money for the greedy Disney Studios managers, especially compared to the main series, so there will be no more spinoffs.

    Just let that sink in.
    Oh please. People speak about profits like they're a bad thing, when they are in fact the whole point of an enterprise. Now what one does with the profit is open to debate on moral grounds, and one might feel outraged about excessive profit (particularly if it is earned from medical technology), but the fact that earnings didn't meet expectations has zero moral component here.

    Disney paid BIG MONEY for the franchise. Their expectation was that they would get BIGGER money from it. Breaking even is a crappy use of their investment dollar.

    On the one hand one can be glad there will be no more 'unnecesary' movies and the milking stops right there. On the other hand, the reason for cancelling the other movies seems mind-baffling. Not profitable enough? Not content with several million dollars? Well, we all like to bash GW a lot for their greed but it seems there's always a bigger fish.
    You do understand that not every product is equally profitable, right? I assume you know that sometimes companies (especially entertainment ones) use the huge profits reaped from "tentpole" films to fund their indie and arts projects.

    So when those profits don't show up, there are a lot of downstream events other than Scrooge McDuck having to to take a smaller money bath.

    Then again some sources report that the movie might not break even after all. We'll have to wait and see.
    From a commercial standpoint, "Solo" has been a total disaster. This was undertaken as a sure thing, an easy layup, a chip shot. It didn't work.

    The responsible thing to do after a blunder of that magnitude would be to reconsider the strategy.

    Based solely on the Star Wars marketing team's reaction, they don't like the current fans and are determined to sell them something they don't want to buy.

    The result is crappy sales.

    Maybe Disney's leadership finds this okay, but their shareholders are getting nervous - hence the review.
    Last edited by Commissar von Toussaint; 24-06-2018 at 00:20.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try the revised and expanded Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.
    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  8. #28
    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    On June 20, Collider claimed that all future 'Star Wars Story' films were on hold due to the financial performance of Solo. A day later, Lucasfilm told ABC News that this was not correct and that numerous unannounced stand-alone films were still in development, but that they would be taking time to reassess several aspects of them, including production, budget and marketing. Making Star Wars reported that a previously unknown Mos Eisley Spaceport film was the source of the rumors and was postponed or canceled, while all other previously reported yet unannounced stand-alone films were still in development.
    Source Wikipedia (not the best I know, but there are links to articles and interviews).
    Things might not be as bad as they look.
    Come join the discussion at the Warseer Anime Fan Group

    Quote Originally Posted by MOMUS View Post
    Nah Arni, it's not your fault you're old and cranky

  9. #29

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnizipal View Post
    Source Wikipedia (not the best I know, but there are links to articles and interviews).
    Things might not be as bad as they look.
    I suspect they are worse. Toy sales are a big money-maker for Disney. Star Wars merch simply isn't moving. All the Solo stuff is on clearance. Not good for deep discounts less than a month after a supposed block-buster for the most beloved franchise in film history hit the screens.

    This is just the usual corporate smokescreen. We'll know more when the full theatrical release is complete and still more when dvd sales/streaming tanks.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try the revised and expanded Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.
    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

  10. #30
    Stick figure on a beach Arnizipal's Avatar
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    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    I may be too optimistic but I think you're being too bleak
    Come join the discussion at the Warseer Anime Fan Group

    Quote Originally Posted by MOMUS View Post
    Nah Arni, it's not your fault you're old and cranky

  11. #31

    Re: Solo: A Star Wars Story [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnizipal View Post
    I may be too optimistic but I think you're being too bleak
    It comes from being around a while.

    You hope things will turn around, that the Powers That Be will get a clue, but they don't.

    These boards have offered myriad ways to make GW games better. Any one of the solutions put forth would have made a radical improvement. All were ignored.

    So after a while, you accept that people do what they do because they mean it; what people think are inadvertent screw-ups are in fact deliberate.

    Disney's destruction of Star Wars was planned. They didn't expect the result, but their leadership made a point of throwing away the old feel and taking it in (as they say) a different direction, one that was foreign to the IP.

    And so their core fans - the one who actually liked Star Wars as it was - are leaving.

    I'll say this: Star Wars fans have proven that they are no where near as masochistically loyal as 40k and especially WHFB players. For this GW can be grateful and Disney profoundly jealous.
    Want a better way to fight fantasy battles? Try the revised and expanded Conqueror: Fields of Victory!

    Do you like Star Wars but hate the prequels? Ever wish someone came up with a decent story about how a decadent galactic commonwealth descended into chaos and civil war? Look no further.
    A proud player of 2nd edition 40k.

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