So I take it that Undead can't flee and get cut down like other armies. Do you guys think this will affect their point value in their future updates? It was already powerful enough that they never break in combat, but now they got another huge weakness that other armies have checked off their list. On top of VC being able to summon more units behind another unit.
Sorry if this has already been brought up.
I don't think they'll change at all in the conversion to 7th.
Undead can never flee, and never have been able to - but they take extra casualties from the combat resolution. What is this other huge weakness you speak of?
No, I'm speaking in terms that they will have another advantage that other races don't have.
Other races get their entire unit cut down if they flee through the enemy of a certain unit size. Since undead can never be broken, the chance of an entire squad disappearing like this is not around. On top of that, undead can capitalize by summoning troops behind enemy units to plan on breaking and making the opponent flee through that unit.
Hmmm, you're right, i never thought of that.
Maybe we will see a price increase to represent this, and certainly a whole new glut of tactics based around it...
Well, this is more of a case of other armies getting weaker than VC (and slayers, demons etc) getting stronger.
Bear in mind that the 5 wide rule hurts VC more than most. 5 wide zombies really suck.
Originally Posted by ZomboCom
I disagree. It's much less of a problem when you can just get free models to fill up.
Overall, I only see much of a change for vampires in 7th. A few pro's and con's, they they will be about the same level as they are now. Maybe a little better.
Lizards got a lot better against them, when you can hold against even autobreak on a double one. Might be annoying at other times, but mainly against lizards.
I deeply mourn the changes to Skirmishers now being march blockable. My pooooor Ghouls.......I **LOVE** those guys......Crap Leadership - but keep them inside 12" of the general and they were my favorite unit. Sigh......
Moving 40K Spawn - Always towards and Assaulting nearest enemy.
Move - Roll 2d6" - Pick Highest
May Choose To Run - 1D6"
Assault - Roll 2d6 - Multiply Highest By 2 - Have Fleet - May Assault After Running
NEVER Fall Back as they are Fearless.
Well, ghouls gets slightly worse. But to be honest, they are currently undercost by almost 50%, so it's needed IMO. And they are still great.
They aren't free - they cost magic! there is always a choice between bolstering other units as well. 5 Wide zombies and skeletons will up there points cost per 4 rank unit to account for the changes in the new rules
"Perhaps you are a wizard, Anytus, for I wonder...how else you could know about these things?" Socrates as written in Plato's Meno
"Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence." C. S. Lewis.
On the other hand ...
- having the new and improved miscast-table is bad news for all the Necromancers out there. Since magic is an important part of how their army works (even the point cost is based on the assumption they will be summoned back) they don't really have the option of not taking magic. They'll just have to keep casting as always and hope they don't blow up.
- to be able to use Invocations to catch breaking enemy units, the caster will have to be fairly close to the action. They're also no longer able to use nearby friendly units as "cover" against being targeted by shooting ... they'll have to be in those vulnerable units.
... so yes, they can use their summoning trick to surround the enemy (which they always could and having an undead unit summoned behind you usually meant death anyway), but it's not as if other armies will have problems getting the same results with flyers, skirmishers, scouts, tunnelers, ambushers and so on.
march blockable skirmishers.... bah!
My friend and I are just going to ignore that. Huzzah for house rules.
Is it just me or are Tomb Kings looking like they are going to be the army that benefits the most in 7th? On top of other things, they are also safe from the new miscast table.
TKs will do well I think.
I'm quite depressed over my woodies though ...almost every unit will take a fall =(
VCs will suffer from the miscast table ... the charge thing isn't huge, but the miscasts and single chars being targettable will hurt them.
Yeah, not completly free, but they are certainly hurt less by it than pretty much everyone else. At least I find it to be a problem for my elves, where as I'm not bothered at all by that for my skellies.
I don't think the miscast table is going to be that bad either really. You don't really need all that much magic with VC. Sure, it helps. But you can win without it. So being a bit careful with what you do, and it shouldn't really be an issue, baring crazy bad luck. *shrug* As I see it, undeads certainly gets more out of the changes, than what the drawbacks are.
Nah, it is only a small advantage. VCs also suffer from small disadvantages in 7th edition (like the mentioned ones; worse miscast table, larger frontages), so I think the netto sum about equals out.
The way I see it, there is a disadvantage in the larger frontage(but less so than for many other armies), the miscast table might be a problem, but we can actually heal our characters, so again, pontentially less so than for others, march blocked ghouls are annoying, but they are still amazingly good.
The changes to characters will be mildly annoying, as it means it's harder to have thralls running around on there own. But that can be gotten around.
On the other side, VC are practically immune to the changes to panic, and will possibly have a much easier time setting up crossfire, as they can raise behind your line. Also, since they are not breaking, but crumbling, they will be much harder to pull off effective cascades on. They are also the army with the by far best swarm in the game in 7th. Spirit Hosts already crumble, so won't suffer more, and they are great as it is.
I think your right, it's just about equal. I still think they might actually be slightly better, but in any case, the VC book isn't far away, so...
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