Help against Marines

[LordXannazic]

Well, I think this weekend, or possibly the next one, my gaming group will be getting together again, and I think I've drawn a game against the Space Marine player. He plays Blood Angels or one of their succesor chapters. He hasn't lost a match in the last ten or so, and his list is pretty constant the whole time. Here is what it, basically, is:

- Tycho, a Chaplain, and death company. These are a dead hard close combat unit, and they've killed (with most of them dying in the process) 9 terminators and a lord before.

- 9 Terminators. He usually deep strikes them.

- Lots of Landspeeders, like two squadrons.

- Very few ordinary marines, and a squad of scouts. These hide and take objectives.

- A Predator and one of the loyallist tanks with the massive ordinance weapon on the front... not sure what it's called, but Iron Warriors can take it too.

This is the heart of his 1750 point list. I've never beaten it before, and he's been going on quite a winning streak.

So, for lack of confidence, I thought I would put it to the forum. Our other two players are Dark Eldar and Tau (I can beat these a little over half the time, which I think is fair enough) and I usually take something along the lines of two infiltrating lieutennants or a daemon prince, 1-2 obliterators, 2-4 small squads with heavy support, maybe one CC squad in a rhino, some cruise missile / daemon bomb bikes, and at least 20 furies. I play Night Lords rules, so I've got the four fast attack slots to use, and all the other goodies. Our rules on WYSIWYG are about as lax as they come, so I can take pretty much whatever, but I do like to use my own models.

So, my fellow damned, how should I defeat this corpse-loyal scum and claim a victory for Ythegmor(sp)?

[Dark Apostle197]

Are you playing city fight? If you do just remember that the death company is not scoring so cannont capture buildings, which is good. The tank to are talking about is a vindicator BTW. All i can say is try to stop his scoring units from taking buildings. if it isn't city fight, plasma guns might work. You could take an ilfitrating Lt with speed and dark blade for some extra punch... Sorry I can't be too much help, I have not played against blood angels with my chaos, though I have beated every marine player I played..

[LordXannazic]

Well thanks for the quick reply. I was thinking I would try lieutennants again (last two games against Dark Eldar I have used a Prince). Unfortunately we do not have enough buildings for a COD game, but I'll still keep that in mind. I was sorta figuring Plasma guns were a good idea, but does anyone else have some unit selections in mind that would be effective?

[Eetion]

Sounds to me, that a Pred with Hbolter and Aurtocannons would be sead nifty at taking down the land speeders quickly and then can be turned against the rest of his army.
A squad of raptors would be good for reigning in the hiding infantry, while the bikes slow down and hit the death company.

[dOOHICKY]

Basics would be....

Stay in cover and use long range fire against him.
He will have to come to you and your +1 to cover saves will work a treat.
Have a unit or two of fast attack sitting back behind cover to counter charge anything that makes it into combat.
Remember, being in cover will give you strike first!

With all those Termies and Death Company you really need powerweapons in EVERY squad.

Also I would recommend a Defiler just so you can drop pie plates on the death company. Big S8 template that will mean they lose their feel no pain!

[LordXannazic]

Also I would recommend a Defiler just so you can drop pie plates on the death company. Big S8 template that will mean they lose their feel no pain!
- I was definitely thinking of taking a Defiler. A Daemon Prince with a Dreadaxe, though, would tear through Terminators... but he's got too much shooting for me to do it with, seeing as he has all those tanks and the terminators don't show up for a few turns. But one query, though... Feel No Pain won't work in instagib situations? Or is there some other reason the Defiler negates it?

Stay in cover and use long range fire against him.
- Should I take normal squads with heavy weapons - Lascannons, perhaps, or Autocannons? Or some Havocs, who are another choice I've taken before with good results.

He will have to come to you and your +1 to cover saves will work a treat.
- so should I take stealth adept for all of my squads? It's a point extra that I've never needed before. I suppose I've never tried these tactics before either though.

Sounds to me, that a Pred with Hbolter and Aurtocannons would be sead nifty at taking down the land speeders quickly and then can be turned against the rest of his army.
A squad of raptors would be good for reigning in the hiding infantry, while the bikes slow down and hit the death company.
- Predator sounds good. Normally I have lots of squads with Autocannons against him, but it isn't all that effective. Raptors on the flanks, with Plasma perhaps, to hunt the marines? I've thought about removing his squads, but with such hardness negating his scoring units won't be much good to me when I'm dead! What should the bikes hit the Death Company with? Shooting or Assault? I've never used assault bikers before. Should I tool the champ up, or perhaps give them Furious Charge?

Thanks for all the responses, I think I've got my plan down now.

[Eetion]

Let them run across the table, shoot the hell out of them with plasmas on the bikes and turn before he gets your lines hit him with the bikes. Make sure you take an AC and if you can a Lt, the power weapons are invaluable.....
Hmmm a thought occurs.
If you can afford it or willing to pay the points....Chosen can all be ACs and take from the armoury. Equip them all with bikes and power weapons and furious charge. For little over 60 points you get 3 attacks on the charge needing 3s to wound and ignoring armour saves and feel no pain, and he needs 5s to wound. A squad of 5 or 6 would mince through the Death Company in a few seconds, (take down Chaplain early) and still have time to go gunning for his deep striking termies.....They are reasonably well protected with the turbo boost invulnerable save. Of course that requires you to spend a big chunk of points on them, which you may not want to do.

Alternatively you could just get a couple of dreads and send them in.

Feel no pain is negated by instakills and CC weapons that allow no save.

[Dark Apostle197]

Also, 6 man las cannon las squads are pretty effective, even more so with stealth adept.

[Qwerp64]

ok, I play as black legion so my tactics will be based on that army. But lemme see if I can be of any use.
I'd definitely take a defiler. AThe fear factor of its ordinance does crazy things to an opponent. Also, l'd have most of my army set up to shoot at him while leaving some of my units in rhino's or behind terrain to counter-attack when he gets close. I'd also have a Lt or lord (maybe both) each equipped with Wind of Chaos psychic power. It is absolutely nasty against large squads of marines. Daemons would also make excellent counter attack units. And if you use bloodletters or daemonettes, then they will use a large number of attacks that won't let the death company have their feel no pain save. Autocannons in some form should make mincemeat of any landspeeder squads he has. Also if you really feel daring, a Greater Daemon can be quite nasty to marine armies.
I have not played many blood angels so I'm not sure of all the little tactics you'll need. But basically you got to make a well coordinated force and feel your way through the battle. Make sure you adapt as you fight. Anyways good luck LordXannazic, I know you can get him =)

[LordXannazic]

A thought occurs to me too... I'd probably hide those bikes somewhere nice and out of the way and then countercharge him. I could take a unit of normal bikers with plasma, and then a unit of chosen... but there would have to be at least five, which is a big points sink and no shooting. It would be cheaper to take Cavalry movement for all of them, because I know even with Turboboost he can kill my bikers pretty quick smart (like 1-2 turns at most). For five points less I would get the same toughness bonus and a bigger effective counterattack move, fleet and all (you can't turboboost and then charge).

Can you use Winds of Chaos from within a close combat, or on a combat? Another idea arises... taking a lieutennant sorceror, perhaps with the one that makes Spawn, and lurk him behind my squads so once they get assaulted I can move up and *pop* some of his expensive characters or such.

Counterattacking isn't something I've used succesfully before (I had a mostly shooting army and some daemons in a four way, allied with nids against DE and this army, and he killed all the summoning units), but if I give everyone Stealth Adept they will be much more surviviable. Night Lords can only take Furies, but that's okay, because they are better stats than marines and

Also, 6 man las cannon las squads are pretty effective, even more so with stealth adept.

- Cool. So, say, one or two squads with Las, one or two squads with Autocannon, and Bjorn Stronginthearm's your uncle? Plus maybe an AC/HB predator. And a pair of obliterators, and a defiler. That's a nice shooty chunk.

Okay, so here's a possible army idea, rough figures:

1-2 Lieutennants, sorcerors if I have the points 200

5 Chosen Cavalry w/ Pswords 275

2 Obliterators 140

2x 6 Marines w/ Lascannon 250

2x 6 Marines w/ Autocannon 250

2x 9 Furies 270

Predator w/ AC & HB sponsons 110

Defiler 170

That's aroung 1650 points, which gives me room to up the squad sizes a little and a few bits of wargear too. Thanks for the help, everyone! Just so you know it's probably not this weekend now, so keep the ideas coming!

[Dark Apostle197]

I think the bikes will be better, moving as calvary doesn't make you an addition toughness. So and extra 5 points per model you get: +1 attack and T5... Not bad.

Throw some plamas into those squads man! :P

If you feel daring, give the BIKER chosen a deamon Icon, so with your counter charge you are garunteed a unit of furies to help.

Defilers are 150 unless you bought him something...

[LordXannazic]

Yeah, I was giving the Defiler Mutated Hull, an upgrade I feel is always worth it.

Of course I'll have Plasma, I'm just listing the Heavy Weapons lol. Those figures aren't exact, just rough ones, so it doesn't matter.

Daemonic Speed doesn't give extra toughness. However, Daemonic Steed gives you cavalry movement and Daemonic Resilience for an extra five points. I think it's worth it.

Should I drop one squad and take another unit of bikers, just with Plasma or Meltaguns? They would be around the same price and I think they'd have a higher chance of taking out some of those killy tanks of his.

[Dark Apostle197]

OO I am sorry i thought you will giving speed. i still think the bike's extra attack is nice though. if you do drop a squad I would say drop an auto cannon squad.

[Qwerp64]

Personally I find bikers to be too big of a point sink in games under 2000 pts. Then again I'm not too experienced with them and I fyou think they will perform some duty well, then go with it. I also know they are excellent daemon bombs =P
Oh yah, as I recall, none of the psychic powers may be used in cc. So for Wind of change (or whatever its called im tired right now) you need some sort of speed boost to get right up close and personally, unleash it killing a good chunk of men, and then assault the poor left-overs. As always, when a leader assaults, its best if he has some sort of backup.
Another idea for counter attacks it to make sure each squad has an aspiring champion so that your normal troops pose a cc threat as well. Even the move up and double tap your bolters when they get close is effective too.
About that chosen squad, it is a very expensive piece there, if you use it, make sure you protect them really well, dont let them get shot to pieces.
Also, if your friend doesn't run many preds or land raiders, then I suggest switching your lascannons to autocannons. They are cheaper and are statistically great weapons against most units. You can even purchase tank hunters for extra points and make it more lethal against vehicles of lower armor than lascannons.

Against landspeeders, autocannons are a godsend.

actual playing tips- pretty basic but make sure you destroy any modes of transportation he uses, if he has to footslog he will be in trouble, and kill long range threats whenever possible. Since your counterattacking, or not charging him, then you need to outgun him. Your best anti infantry gun is prolly the battlecannon. Try and protect it and make sure to hit troop concentrations or try to pin his heavy weapons. Otherwise, you know how it goes. =P I hope any of that is helpful...

Edit: on second review, perhaps two lascannons would be better just in-case you have some sort of monstrosity to deal with. But again, if you know he will only take light vehicles/units, then go with autocannons.

[Dark Apostle197]

People say bikes aren't worth it, but I like them in my 1.5k list, they have never disapointed me. My favorite was when i played a Dh guy and he got pissed i striked before his termies... and well, there were no strikes back -.-

[Qwerp64]

People say bikes aren't worth it, but I like them in my 1.5k list, they have never disapointed me. My favorite was when i played a Dh guy and he got pissed i striked before his termies... and well, there were no strikes back -.-

Lol, nicely done. I love fighting DH, there is something so satisfying about killing the terminators. Anycase I'd love to see how you guys are configuring your bike squads, maybe sometime I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

[Dark Apostle197]

mine is kind of pricey, but i like it -.-

5 Bikers
Asp champ with power fist+mutation
Icon
MoCU
Frag grenades
2 Melta guns
Furious charge 256

[LordXannazic]

5 Bikers
Asp champ with power fist+mutation
Icon
MoCU
Frag grenades
2 Melta guns
Furious charge 256

- I never spend that many points, my opponent tends to shoot down the squad within the first two turns.

Thanks for all the advice! You are right about the lethality of Autocannons on light vehicles, and Tank Hunters is definitely something I'm considering. If I do drop a squad I think it will be a Lascannon one, because he usually takes the one Predator, and with the Obliterator that's two Las units I can use. I can give the Chosen bikes and take another bike unit as well, giving me a lot of invulnerables and movement to go with my heavy shooting. If the bikers survive, melty melty

[philbrad2]

One of my fave units bikers and both set ups are very simialr to my own IW bike team. Although I've been running with a flamer/melta combo as well and this works nicely. I dont bother with MoCU or an icon in my team and these guys have very often won games for me in 400/500pts Combat Patrols. Last outing the shot to pieces a Chimera and then ran down the sqaud within it in assault killing the lot.

[Qwerp64]

Hmm seems like I might have to buy myself a few more bikers then and give them a try... I was looking for something to add to my forces with a little anti-tank punch [i see too many landraiders these days =( ] I've also been really getting into flamers recently, but I think I need the melta guns more.

LordXannazic: It seems you have an interesting force coming out there. I like your force so far. I'm really interested to see how it turns out on the battle field. Any idea what your going to settle on for your final list?