Codex Leapfrog

[MonkeyKnifeFighter]

Maybe it's just me and the store I hang out at, but we've been getting the feeling like GW is playing leapfrog with the codicies. When the new Space Marine codex came out, everyone said, "Wow Space Marines are really good." Some thought there was some broken stuff, but mostly it was just a powerful army list. Now that the new Tyranid codex has come out, however, there's been a lot of people refusing to play Tyranids, and after the battle I had last night, I think I'm going to join them.

The new Carnifex is stupid. It's just plain stupid. For 250 points you can get something that no tank can kill, but something that can kill just about any tank in one round of shooting, while moving. It will kill anything in close combat. It's good against everything. Yeah, there's a lot of armchair-general "oh well you do XYZ and it's easy", bull. It's stupid and broken, that's the only way to describe it. In 2000 points you can have two tooled-up Carnifexes, and two tooled-up Hive-Tyrants, and then an army after that. There is no possible way to kill 4 beasts like this unless you design a list specifically to do just that. What about the Tyranid player, though? Well You give one a venom cannon, one a barbed strangler, etc and you are good against any army you come up against. Orks with choppas...right, sure. You can find examples to counter this if you want to sit back and try, but the 'nid player just has to sit back and shoot pieplates into the Orks from the table edge. It's in Synapse range, it won't run.

So to the point, though...does it feel like GW keeps making one codex better than the next? The Brettonian fantasy list was like this too. This wouldn't be a huge problem except that they won't fix the list. It's not like a powerful Magic card that will just get banned or anything; this codex will be around for years, and this is only the second of the 4th edition codexes. Is this going to be the standard now? I can't wait for Black Templars. They're already a list that I think is unnecesasary and potentially overpowered, they'll probably leapfrog the Tyranids. Maybe it's just me, but I'm really thinking that, given the latest rash of stupid things GW has done, this may just be what they are going for.

[Catterjee]

What you refer to is known to many as "Codex Creep"

Personally, I don't worry about it too much. When a new codex comes out, people always cry foul about some "unbeatable" tactic/combo/whatever. Then a few weeks pass and someone figures out how to beat it.

[MidnightResistance]

The Carnifex has always been sick. There's nothing new about that

[owen matthew]

As long as the MCs are not winged, then just ignore them and kill the rest of the army. The more MCs they have, the less that they have moving fast. The fast stuff is the problem, back out of MC line of sight and out of charge range and you will win on points every time. It is the only way I can consistantly beat them. It is the same as in 3rd ed. essentially- just now you can waste more points in the big slow stuff, giving you less fast stuff to worry about. Seriously, the more MCs, the more the Tyranid player is shooting himself in the foot. Look out for the Winged HT and all the fast rending stuff.

My friend is doing 45 warriors(27 flying w/ rending and tallons) with a flying tyrant and flying rippers for troops. This gives me nightmares.

[Gaebriel]

This might be the the exact meaning of codex creep, but GW is known to make each new codex slightly overpowered in an area. Add to this some hard propaganda, and the "never fought this before", and they will get more people to buy that new army. It's a marketing ploy in my eyes. As been said, it will wear down with the time.

Don't let "the Terror" effect you - the player http://www.portent.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif And if it annoys you too much, try a tooled anti-list. I see nothing wrong with that. As every over-specialized army, Tyranids are tooled towards one aspect from the start...

[Lion El Jason]

Well...Codex creep exists... Apart from the =I= codexes all the "4th ed ready" and the 4th ed marine codex are much more powerful than many of the others. Chaos is easily the most powerful list in 40k followed by Guard then marines.

Tyranids however have been down-powered since the last codex. Carnifex are more powerful but start off weaker for the same cost and they are still easier to kill than a wraithlord (Because bolters can hurt them). But its a much better codex, easier to use, clearer....

So to answer your question, YES codex creep exists (Just look at the old marine codex compared to the new one) but its not too much of a problem and 'nids havn't suffered from it much at all.

What your friends are experiencing is commonly known as "The Fear". This happens everytime a new book is released and the first few games people will not know exactly what to expect and so when the powerful things appear, they seem broken at first.

[Emperor's Light]

Hmm...I felt that codex creep was kept under control for the most part under 3rd ed. I haven't played the new Nids yet nor have I even had a chance to seriously look through the codex. However, I would hate to see 4th ed. degenerate because of codex creep.

[Peter]

I know what you mean. My best mate plays them and always goes for the big bugs and fills out as much as he can with genestealers. It is kind of hard to kill core troops that have a weapon skill the same as my warboss and I cant out shoot them. They can beat me in almost every aspect of the game! Combat shooting he wins every time, I cant even make the most aof power of the waaaaagh because he has that extended charge thingo so I can never get a charge in, therefore he hits first leaving nothing to fight back then consolidates out of charge range and charges the next unit next turn!

[philbrad2]

Hmm...I felt that codex creep was kept under control for the most part under 3rd ed.

I'd disagree with that with the earlier codicies. Later ones became more balanced certainly. There was a tendancy in early 3rd ed that players could field armies that were either uber (BA/Eldar) or sucked (Chaos).

Codex creep has been around for nigh on 10 years now. Just because you've built up an army to counter one threat which then has that threat change with a new codex release is part of the game. Remember ADAPT, IMPROVISE, OVERCOME! There is no such thing as an unbeatable army. Good slot choices and tactics yes, an opponent with these will be difficult to beat.

I buy every codex that comes out but don't collect every army. I like to research all the armies to look for strengths and weaknesses and developing units/tactics to take on all armies is part of the challenge of the game. After all for all the nice miniatures, 40K is a tabletop strategy game. Some armies rely on the tactics/strategy of their commander rather than simple brute force.

[icharus]

I know what you mean, I fought against genestealers on saturday and my BT's didn't stand a chance the guy had first turn he moved then fleet of clawed a further six inches then assaulted and was in my deployment zone before firing a single shot.

[Adept]

You have to be kidding right? Codex creep? The new Nid codex is, at best, on a par with the Marines. In general, the new Marine codex is superior.

You have problems with the Carnifexes? Sounds like you don't have enough anti-tank weapons. Try taking a Lascannon Predator and a squad of Lascannon armed Devastators. It's hardly a dedicated anti-tank army since most armies will have some form of armour, and you do need something to take out AS2+ models like terminators.

[PBGhost]

How Icharus? Average board is 48 inches, with 12 inch deployment zones and 24.1 inches between the opposing forces. Even if you both deployed 12, he scouted 6, moved 6, fleeted 6 and charged 6, he would be .1 inch out. Unless, of course, you were playing Recon or another unusual scenario.

[Lion El Jason]

icharus. He shouldn't be able to do that... You start further away than his charge range (24") in all missions except cleanse.

Another point: Chaos is by far the most powerful list in 40k. This dosent mean it produces armies that are massivly more powerful though. Chaos are slightly better than most other armies. Guard are slightly better.
Other armies (Orks) are slightly worse. In general, its not going to make too much difference unless exploited and abused (Saim hann...)

[Karhedron]

TMCs are slow (apart from the infamous winged Tyrants). If buys 4 big ones then that is about 1000 points sunk into models that excel in close combat but only move 6" per turn.

At the end of the day you can just run away from the big stuff and shoot up the smaller stuff. Whether this is feasible or not does depend on the mission to some extent but if the Nid player only has 4 slow scoring units left then he will have a hard time on a lot fights.

This is something that any army can do, they do not need to be tricked out to kill TMCs. It is a mistake to think that shooty armies can only stand still and try to kill combat units before they reach your lines. Tau may epitomise the concept of a tactical withdrawal but any army can do the same thing.

[icharus]

just didn't think he would be that lucky on the 1st turn.

[Mr Evil]

Have you ever played against late 3rd edition 'nids? Carnifexes usually had 2 Venom Cannons (4 STR10 shots), now it's useless to take more than one. Most of the good units also had cheaper biomorphs/base prices. 4th edition nids have gone down in power/effectiveness, not too much, but noticibly so for those who were very familiar with the 3rd ed codex. The new 'nids codex is the first one to not have 'codex creep'.

Tyranids are a unique army, they play differently than others because everything is mobile and it has many quick moving units.

If you play either Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines and refuse to play Tyranids because you think THEY'RE cheesy, you'd be quite a joke to me.

[Cloudscape_online]

You want to nail the 'fex and the tyrant? Plasma weapons, lascannons, Demolisher cannons. All are AP2, all are relatively strong. Focus fire, eliminate one threat at a time by pouring all firepower into that target until it is dead. Kill them, do not leave them on 1 wound as they will regenerate at least 1 wound and that is unacceptable. Next turn, nail the next threat. Rinse and repeat. Mop-up with infantry.

This works incredibly well for guard, btw.

[Angelus Mortis]

The new Carnifex is stupid. It's just plain stupid. For 250 points you can get something that no tank can kill, but something that can kill just about any tank in one round of shooting, while moving.

This is just a plain exageration. One, you shouldn't be using tanks to kill a Carnifex. A 4 Lascannon Devastator squad (or its equivilant in other codexs) will make short work of a Carnifex usually in1 or 2 rounds. The best a Carnifex can do shooting vs. Tanks is a Venom Cannon, and even then it only glances. Second best is a Barbed Strangler which maxs out at S8. This will again, only glance anything with a AV 14. It seems to me that this appears to be following the pattern I always see of a new codex comes out and you have two opposing groups. People who love it because its got some new, powerful stuff, and those who hate because its got some new, powerful stuff. In the end, its just as balanced and fair as the rest and only requires you to figure out to either play with it or play versus it. People still rant about Daemonhunters being a weak list and its really a quite powerful one if you figure out how to use it (which most people don't). I personally welcome the Carnifex strength, even though they are not indestructable, they are indeed better than they were in 3e. Nothing would piss you off more than to watch your supposed bio-tank get killed by a single round of bolter fire. Its about time they got their dues.

I know what you mean, I fought against genestealers on saturday and my BT's didn't stand a chance the guy had first turn he moved then fleet of clawed a further six inches then assaulted and was in my deployment zone before firing a single shot.

Impossible. In every scenario, 24" is the closest you can start from you opponent unless you infiltrate, which Genestealers do not. If he bought scuttlers for them, he could get a scout move which would allow it, but that would require a 6 on his fleet die. Possible, but not gonna happen every game.

[Kiro]

The Carnifex now has regenerate!?!?

[Angelus Mortis]

The Carnifex now has regenerate!?!?

Nice, but not all powerful. Only works on a 6.