The Death of the Squats....

[Sgt Biffo]

Bringing back the dead is called necromancy!

I for one wasn't upset to see the demise of the squats, for the same reasons of breaking away from Fantasy that JJ sited.

Maybe they could have a place in something like Inquisitor or the like but I'd not like to see them re-established as a 40k army.

I'd like to see new armies.

[Hellebore]

Bringing back the dead is called necromancy!

I for one wasn't upset to see the demise of the squats, for the same reasons of breaking away from Fantasy that JJ sited.

Maybe they could have a place in something like Inquisitor or the like but I'd not like to see them re-established as a 40k army.

I'd like to see new armies.

The idea is not simply to stick squats back into the game, but to reboot or reimagine them so that they don't disappear completely.

Many people have argued for an army that is humans from Non-imperial worlds.

I think the Squats (or Corians) would be ideal candidates for this, being as they understand technology, have access to advanced forms of it, and aren' overtly religious. Three things the Imperium really is not at the moment.

Hellebore

[Sai-Lauren]

One of the biggest problems comes from the name. Squats is so..... dumb. Obviously it's a derogatory term used by the Imperium, much like ratling.

But the 'squats' themselves know,and are, human. How does one differentiate them without coming up with some weird alien-esque sounding name for what is essentially a human culture?

Well, one way HUMANS differentiate each other is through nationalality/religion (eg Christian, or German etc).

So, I thought, what do they all have in common? They live in Strongholds (strongholdian sounds a bit daft) in the Core.

So at the moment, I'm thinking they would refer to themselves as Corians (opposing the Imperial Terran).

Thus they belong to the 'Corian League'.

Hellebore

Last time this came up, someone gave them the name Asyr (or something similar), but I like Corian.

Hmm, Codex: Strongholds of The Corian. Has a nice ring to it.

Many people have argued for an army that is humans from Non-imperial worlds.

In fact, if you look at a lot of people's first army backgrounds, they tend to go for high tech, non-imperial cult worshipping humans.

Sound familiar?

[Hellebore]

Last time this came up, someone gave them the name Asyr (or something similar), but I like Corian.

Hmm, Codex: Strongholds of The Corian. Has a nice ring to it.


In fact, if you look at a lot of people's first army backgrounds, they tend to go for high tech, non-imperial cult worshipping humans.

Sound familiar?

Personally, I was thinking something like Codex: Corian League (like Tau Empire), but that's just down to personal preference.

I saw the aspects of the Squats as a way to do two things at once; reintroduce a faction obliterated by retcon, AND satiate the desires of those people who want a human army that does not belong to the Imperium.

Hellebore

[Xisor]

The problem with any such Corian League(has a nice ring to it!), is that the Core was, roughly speaking, wiped clean by the Tyranids, the Orks who presumably came about after them 'moving in', or the combined might of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Ordo Xenos as the discovered the Corians had popped their clogs.

If the Corian League was, rather than the New-age-Squat-Empire, in fact a sort of guerrilla/remnant organisation...The Corian Remnant also has a nice ring to it...Retcon may not be needed so much as saying "Some survived here's what happened"(with a play on the Demiurg also being possible survivors)

A good play could be made of the distinct similarities of the Demiurg/Corians, yet illustrate their differences at the same time.

Xisor

[Hellebore]

The problem with any such Corian League(has a nice ring to it!), is that the Core was, roughly speaking, wiped clean by the Tyranids, the Orks who presumably came about after them 'moving in', or the combined might of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Ordo Xenos as the discovered the Corians had popped their clogs.

If the Corian League was, rather than the New-age-Squat-Empire, in fact a sort of guerrilla/remnant organisation...The Corian Remnant also has a nice ring to it...Retcon may not be needed so much as saying "Some survived here's what happened"(with a play on the Demiurg also being possible survivors)

A good play could be made of the distinct similarities of the Demiurg/Corians, yet illustrate their differences at the same time.

Xisor

Yes, of course the Corian League is PRE Tyranid.

The Corian Shambles is probably more accurate for a modern setting.

As for the name, it sort of just popped in there (no marshmallows though ) and it seemed to fit without being too alien-esque/cheesy.

It's a nationality type name, rather than a racial one. The way I'm moving (as in, my opinion) is that the Corians believe themselves to be the only true humans, so it would seem a bit weird if they referred to each other as anything BUT human...

I like the idea that the Demiurg are a 'Chaos Dwarf' style army - they have few actual Demiurg, and high numbers of automated attack vehicles/robots et al.

With the Corians (I REALLY like saying that ) they would still be Infantry heavy, as the original squats were a sort of hybrid guard/marine force.

They would have a preponderance of technology, but not to the extreme the tau possess (I see 50%guard, 30%marine, 20%tau sort of composition technologically), whilst the Demiurg would be nothing but technology.

I like the idea that Demiurg sit at the back of the army and control their robots like a super-realistic computer game .

Not as corny as the stupid droid army from StarWars, but with a fairly high degree of automation. The Demiurg army would be fairly small, as all the robots would carry whole squads worth of weapons.

Hellebore

[Sgt Biffo]

The Corians might make good mercinaries for many existing armies. After all they wouldn't be pumped full of dogma and would be quite capable of maintainance of their equipment.

There would also be a way of fitting in some Imperial or even Xeno tech weapons (A return of the shurieken-cat as a special weapon option. Maybe even a pulse carbine or a big shoota.)

Perahps the Corian League is a loose sort of mercinary guild?



I think they'd have to be modeled a bit differently however. Short, fat guys with beards are what you meet at wargaming conventions, not in the grim darkness of the future where there is only war.

[Hellebore]

The Corians might make good mercinaries for many existing armies. After all they wouldn't be pumped full of dogma and would be quite capable of maintainance of their equipment.

There would also be a way of fitting in some Imperial or even Xeno tech weapons (A return of the shurieken-cat as a special weapon option. Maybe even a pulse carbine or a big shoota.)

Perahps the Corian League is a loose sort of mercinary guild?



I think they'd have to be modeled a bit differently however. Short, fat guys with beards are what you meet at wargaming conventions, not in the grim darkness of the future where there is only war.

Nice ideas.

Ironically, one of the original themes behind the squats involved supplying mercenaries when the Imperium didn't require a tithe (similar to the way in which the Kroot do business with the tau ) so the mercenary theme is certainly a fitting one.

As for image, I wanted a more subtle difference. Rather than simply adapt to living in mines (which evolutionarily won't work) I thought that some form of genetic altering would have taken place.

Similar to many a scifi universe, the concept of the heavy gravity worlder comes in. Someone who was engineered to survive on high G worlds would have a tougher more resilient frame. Couple this with adaption to low nutrient environments and you get a compact, well muscled humanoid capable of withstanding a great amount of punishment.

This would probably be a combination of slow metabolism, dense musculature and heavy skeleton, which would in turn cause a slower aging process.

The Corians would thus be slightly shorter, heavier set humans, that (something I decided) were hairless except for the face in males, and the cranium in females with a tougher physique and longer life.

As a side effect of this, any people that are genetically psykers only seem to manifest the power during advanced age, the side effect of which is they have better control of it, but not the fortitude to channel the amount of power younger, more spry individuals would

So, imagine a slightly wider than average human, about the height of a tau (or slightly shorter) with a bald head but the capacity to grow a beard (or plaits if female).

Not too much different from an 'ordinary' human, is it?

Hellebore

[Easy E]

Traditionally, Squats lived in Strongholds which could form together into leagues.

I agree that they would never refer to themselves as Squats. However, I don't think they would give themselves a racial identity either. I feel that they would simply refer to themselves with their Stronghold name.

In addition, I see their society also broken down into various clans that can trace their heritage to the original human miners. These various bloodlines would then be interspersed throughout the various Strongholds.

The third piece of "squat" identity would be their own family within a single stronghold. They would share a bloodline within that colony that they would use to identify themselves and Kin.

So, if a "Squat" was refering to themselves it would go something like this: Jorge from Argar (Stronghold) of Hendrix (Clan) of the line of Vlados (Family). Then other "squats" would know that the Argar Stronghold was a member of the Kapellian League.

Outsiders would probably refer to them by a variety of names, but the diplomatically accepted name could be something like "Clansmen" or Corians.

[Brother Smith]

One of the biggest problems comes from the name. Squats is so..... dumb. Obviously it's a derogatory term used by the Imperium, much like ratling.

But the 'squats' themselves know,and are, human. How does one differentiate them without coming up with some weird alien-esque sounding name for what is essentially a human culture?

Well, one way HUMANS differentiate each other is through nationalality/religion (eg Christian, or German etc).

So, I thought, what do they all have in common? They live in Strongholds (strongholdian sounds a bit daft) in the Core.

So at the moment, I'm thinking they would refer to themselves as Corians (opposing the Imperial Terran).

Thus they belong to the 'Corian League'.

Hellebore

'Corian' sounds dumb.

I'd prefer people to refer to them as the core strongholds.

And why do the men have to be bald?

So an Inquisitor might say 'the power of the strongholds is waning'

[Khaine's Messenger]

I'd suggest calling them the Gnostic Leagues, simply for the irony of Xisor's ideas based on the Demiurge and other possible connections. But then really, that's beside the main line of reasoning here.

As for engineering their stature...I'd rather leave it at minor evidence of direct tampering a la the AdMech report on the Tau. That way you can leave some of that sort of thing up in the air for origin stories and cultural development issues.

[Hellebore]

'Corian' sounds dumb.

I'd prefer people to refer to them as the core strongholds.

And why do the men have to be bald?

So an Inquisitor might say 'the power of the strongholds is waning'

And squat sounds better?

And you can't refer to an individual from an area as a "core Stronghold".

Easy E makes sense when he says that a 'squat' would refer to themselves by their Stronghold/clan/family et al.

The term 'Corian' was simply a catchall term like the term 'Imperial'. What does one call a group of people anyway?

And the problem with using Stronghold/clan etc is that if they have a RACIAL/National identity, they can't use the stronghold as the name, because there are too many of them (although maybe not anyone...).

Referring to the group as a whole, I suppose you could call them 'Leaguers' akin to 'Imperial'.

A human from the Imperium would probably introduce themselves in the following order (excepting the fact that talking to an alien would get them killed):

Familial Name, Human, Imperial, Planet of Origin
(Corbec, Human, Imperial, Tanith etc).

A Corian being different from an Imperial Human would have to explain:

Familial Name, Human, Corian, Stronghold

See Easy E's construction:

So, if a "Squat" was refering to themselves it would go something like this: Jorge from Argar (Stronghold) of Hendrix (Clan) of the line of Vlados (Family). Then other "squats" would know that the Argar Stronghold was a member of the Kapellian League.

This is fine when introducing oneself to someone who already knows WHAT you are, but does not help when trying to explain it someone who doesn't.

Why is it that all throughout GW's squat years, they were always referred to as SQUATS and not Core Leaguers?

Because it is a general label that applies to only a specific group of individuals. When yuo say 'Eldar' or 'ork' all the associated stereotypes are implied.

One is a racial name, and the other is a politicogeographic one.


I suppose a better question would be: DO 'squats' think of themselves as humans, or a completely different species?

In my reimagining they believe they ARE humans, and so a racial name is unecessary because they would refer to themselves as human.

If they do not, then they would have a name for themselves as a collective (even if, as Easy E shows, it wouldn't come up very much).

The term 'corian' is a National identity, and is in the same vein as 'Imperial'.

Of course, 'Leaguer' would work too (and Guilder).

It all comes down to a matter of taste, and the term SQUAT I refuse to use in anything other than a derogatory capacity.

hellebore

[Sgt Biffo]

'Corian' sounds dumb.

I'd prefer people to refer to them as the core strongholds.

And why do the men have to be bald?

So an Inquisitor might say 'the power of the strongholds is waning'

@hellebore- Your always going to get some one thats going to try to shoot you down for being creative.

"Sounds dumb" Yeah! Thats constructive criticism.

Avoiding the Strongholds as a name will help seperate these guys from the old squats. Most everything of the old Strongholds has been destroyed or abandoned.

[Zzarchov]

For good looking squat minis: The "Grymn" make good stand ins, and I like that style.

Rather than fix a bad concept, I think squats should have a complete revamp from the orks from 2nd to 3rd.

Zzarchovs Steps to respectable "Squats" (if you want abhumans still)

Step 1.) Rename, and blend with existing fluff/ Add to it

This is just a rough draft that came into my mind:

Codex: Stone Men

The "Squats" and all abhumans are the Stone Men of Ancient legend. Before the Golden Men (Ie normal humans) created the Iron men (AI robots) as their servents they created the Stone Men (Genetically modified humans ) to work as their servants. "Squats" were made as technicians, miners and other manually skilled trades, Ogryns for security and labour, Ratlings for initial farming before proper "Golden men" colonists would make planetfall. The Beastmen were some form of mistake.

While the Classic Human Empire fell during the Age of strife, many Stone men continued to live in abandoned facilities in industry and Mining worlds, naturally adept at maintaining them, And so they formed their own culture, their own civilization utilizing the STC's they were bred to maintain.

Some Stone Men formed empires..some planet wide, some System wide..a few comprised of several systems. But the Stone Men cannot utilize the warp safely, and so travel by Sub-light "Arks", progress is slow. Most Stonemen however are locked away in Facilities long since buried in the sands of time, sometimes with Imperial cities built over top of them unaware, causing problems when earthquakes or mining cause the two cultures to meet, sometimes a prosperous agri-world can be consumed when a subteranean race of mole people spills forth to conquer it.


Thats just my mental Diarhea there.

A list could feature allied Ogryns and Ratlings as fellow abhumans labourers, Alot of Imperial weaponry without all the religious Iconography. The General look of the Grymn.

[Hellebore]

For good looking squat minis: The "Grymn" make good stand ins, and I like that style.

Rather than fix a bad concept, I think squats should have a complete revamp from the orks from 2nd to 3rd.

Zzarchovs Steps to respectable "Squats" (if you want abhumans still)

Step 1.) Rename, and blend with existing fluff/ Add to it

This is just a rough draft that came into my mind:

Codex: Stone Men

The "Squats" and all abhumans are the Stone Men of Ancient legend. Before the Golden Men (Ie normal humans) created the Iron men (AI robots) as their servents they created the Stone Men (Genetically modified humans ) to work as their servants. "Squats" were made as technicians, miners and other manually skilled trades, Ogryns for security and labour, Ratlings for initial farming before proper "Golden men" colonists would make planetfall. The Beastmen were some form of mistake.

While the Classic Human Empire fell during the Age of strife, many Stone men continued to live in abandoned facilities in industry and Mining worlds, naturally adept at maintaining them, And so they formed their own culture, their own civilization utilizing the STC's they were bred to maintain.

Some Stone Men formed empires..some planet wide, some System wide..a few comprised of several systems. But the Stone Men cannot utilize the warp safely, and so travel by Sub-light "Arks", progress is slow. Most Stonemen however are locked away in Facilities long since buried in the sands of time, sometimes with Imperial cities built over top of them unaware, causing problems when earthquakes or mining cause the two cultures to meet, sometimes a prosperous agri-world can be consumed when a subteranean race of mole people spills forth to conquer it.


Thats just my mental Diarhea there.

A list could feature allied Ogryns and Ratlings as fellow abhumans labourers, Alot of Imperial weaponry without all the religious Iconography. The General look of the Grymn.

Those are some very cool ideas.

Certainly explains their genetic tampering. I like the way it's tied into the history of humanity, without contradicting existing fluff.

As an aside, can anyone think of a term fitting to call the 'squats', that ISN'T squat?

Khaine's Messenger has 'Gnostic League'
Easy E advocates the use of Stronghold names
I came up with Corian (for Core -ian)
Or Leaguer

Any other ideas that don't suck?

Hellebore

[Sai-Lauren]

For good looking squat minis: The "Grymn" make good stand ins, and I like that style.
...

...
A list could feature allied Ogryns and Ratlings as fellow abhumans labourers, Alot of Imperial weaponry without all the religious Iconography. The General look of the Grymn.

Not only are they good models (see below), they have female soldiers as well, which a race that could well be on it's last legs would have to have, no matter what.

(I personally think Hasslefree have some of the best sculpts out there at the moment - even if they're not all PG-13, and their customer service is fantastic - not only do you get what you ordered, sometimes you get free pick'n'mix sweets as well .

Ok, I'll stop advertising for them now. )

As for names, I still like Corian (it's their name for themselves, remember, not the Imperial designation, which could still be Squats or whatever), but I can also see the attraction of having things like Clan or Stronghold names to sub-divide them - if nothing else, that way you can justify "blue-on-blue" games as inter-house/clan/hold/whatever rivalries.

And let's keep the C, it's bad enough having Krak grenades and missiles.

A list could feature allied Ogryns and Ratlings as fellow abhumans labourers, Alot of Imperial weaponry without all the religious Iconography

And that kind of thing would potentially save a lot of new moulds (initially at least - I think they should have their own) if they can use some imperial equipment - maybe only needing an accessory sprue for things like iconography.

Although I think Ogryn/Ratling mercenaries or imperial renegades would be better than straight allies - which would of course potentially allow it to expand to have merc. humans as a part of the army (Rogue Traders may still be tolerated for trade purposes, for example, and some planetary governors and merchant houses may have old contracts or sympathies towards them, and trade with them for armaments etc, whilst some imperial rebellion movements and cults may do the same).

Question, is their equipment self-built (uniform, but requiring production facilities somewhere), or captured, repaired and put into service (easier, but more rag-tag in appearance)?

And I like the "Stone Men" idea as well.

[Ravenwing]

You could always call them some version of their original name based on the idea posted above.

So if they were originaly known as stone men then it would make sense to have some refferance to this in their modern name. So how about for stone man - calx vir. I know this is only pigeon latin but it adds the all important imperial feal to their name without making it too obvious where it came from.

Just a 2 second idea. It would be very cool to bring them back though and some of the ideas here are very impressive.

Raven

[Hellebore]

One of my reasons for their higher level of technology comes from more complete forms of the STC.

Being as they were the oldest colonists Terra sent out, they've had their technology sequestered away for ~20,000 years (to present day 41st). Being in the Core they were fairly isolated from the breakdown of the nacent human empire, mainly due to the interdependency developed amongst the Strongholds/clans because of the lack of necessities like food. That kind of 'Brotherhood' kept them close together for their own survival and prevented the Core from collapsing like the rest of humanity.

Technologically speaking, I would imagine that their weapons would be mostly energy based (lasguns were the standard for the original squats, but they could upgrade to bolters) and slightly superior to the standard imperial equivalents (so a lasgun thats a little better than an imperial one, and a hellgun thats a little better than the imperial one etc).

Alot of the more esoteric weapons dropped from 2nd ed could make a return as some of the older weapons the STC encodes.

Due to their tau-esque attitude toward technology, they could mix and match their vehicular weaponry. Additionally, the jetbike was also part of the Imperial arsenal circa Great Crusade, so it would actually be fairly realistic to have Corians utilise these, instead of the more famous Trike/bike monstrosity.

The RH1-N0 APC would probably be the standard transport, whilst the RA1-D3R assault tank their mainline tank (L33T speak is good for SOMETHING ).

The drill technology utilised by the old squats would also be available, such as the mole mortar and the T3R-M1T3 Tactical delivery transport.

And the conversion beamer would be a poorman's D-cannon in function.

Energy weapons (laser, plasma, fusion/melta) would probably be the foundation for their offensive technolgy as it is the cornerstone of their power resources (the squats developed highly efficient plasmacores and fusion drives).

All in all, I think the only things that really didn't work with the squat imagery was the name, the biker motif and the blatant dwarf psychology.

Everything else was fairly good, and would only need to be tweaked slightly to fit inline with modern 40k.

Personally I don't see the Corians using bolters, as these were a specialist development during the Great Crusade for equipping the Emperor's troops.

That doesn't mean there wasn't the ability to construct a powerful laser(maser) based weapon though.

Hellebore

[Sai-Lauren]

Technologically speaking, I would imagine that their weapons would be mostly energy based (lasguns were the standard for the original squats, but they could upgrade to bolters) and slightly superior to the standard imperial equivalents (so a lasgun thats a little better than an imperial one, and a hellgun thats a little better than the imperial one etc).

What are you thinking - it's a little tricky to make something "slightly" better.

Due to their tau-esque attitude toward technology, they could mix and match their vehicular weaponry. Additionally, the jetbike was also part of the Imperial arsenal circa Great Crusade, so it would actually be fairly realistic to have Corians utilise these, instead of the more famous Trike/bike monstrosity.

The RH1-N0 APC would probably be the standard transport, whilst the RA1-D3R assault tank their mainline tank (L33T speak is good for SOMETHING ).

The drill technology utilised by the old squats would also be available, such as the mole mortar and the T3R-M1T3 Tactical delivery transport.

L33T speak is never good for anything.

What about guard vehicles (Chimera and Russ hulls)?
And how about the epic vehicles - such as the Land Train, Iron Eagle Gyrocopters etc, would they get a place in the background/ Forge World plans?

And yes to Termites, and hopefully Moles as well (FW can do the Hellebore ). In theory all you need is a model for it bursting out of the ground - give it the same kit as a Crusader (assault ramps and frag plates) and maybe some flamers to help clear the area.

Not so sure on AG vehicles, it's taking them too close to Tau IMO.

[Hellebore]

What are you thinking - it's a little tricky to make something "slightly" better.

ap6 instead of -.

L33T speak is never good for anything.

No, you're right , it really isn't. But, I suppose I can argue that the Rhino got its name from the RH1N0 line anyway, and that was before l33t...

What about guard vehicles (Chimera and Russ hulls)?
And how about the epic vehicles - such as the Land Train, Iron Eagle Gyrocopters etc, would they get a place in the background/ Forge World plans?

And yes to Termites, and hopefully Moles as well (FW can do the Hellebore ). In theory all you need is a model for it bursting out of the ground - give it the same kit as a Crusader (assault ramps and frag plates) and maybe some flamers to help clear the area.

Not so sure on AG vehicles, it's taking them too close to Tau IMO.

The Russ is the RU-55 Support tank (actually based on a demolisher).

Gyrocopters would be some form of enclosed speeder design, slow, but heavily armoured.

The Land trains, colossi, goliath et al would still be there, but in a slightly modified form.

The AG vehicles would consist only of jetbikes and speeders. There wouldn't be any tank AG vehicles - too big to fly.

Considering the Imperium still uses speeders, and they DID have jetcycles (of the M14 Bullock variety) I thought that the use of jetbikes instead of TRIKES would further differentiate them without remomving a very characterful part from the Squat background (because biker dwarfs from mars is such a bad idea).

In some ways the original squat army was set up like the modern Eldar one.
There was a core of professional warriors - hearthguard(aspects), and all squats had to perform a certain amount of military service (like guardian militia).

So if you look at the Strongholds (or Havens/Sanctuaries or whatever other term you want to use) as possessing a standing army of Hearthguard, that also provide the command structure for the common soldiers in the Brotherhood (Or Homeguard as I have called them. Sounds defensive enough to reflect the way they operate) then you get an army command structure like a combination of the Guard platoon and the Eldar (units of professional hearthguard and units or brotherhoods led by a hearthguard assembled into Sections).

Any bikeriders would be strategic reconaissance/outrider types, and the army would be supported by field artillery (Mole Mortars, conversion beamers and Quad launchers) and Support tanks.

I also believe the Corians would still possess alot of cybernetic knowledge, and could field limited numbers of Robots in maniples under the command of the engineering corps.

At the moment, the Imperium still has (in the background) the Legio Cybernetica (it is mentioned in the EoT and Armageddon3 campaigns) so although there isn't anything in the army books about it, the imperium DOES still possess robot infantry.

I would assume, as the Corians are older and have more complete data, that they would also be able to field robots...

Hellebore