Questions people at the warhammer forum can't answer

[Netherbeing]

Yesterday I posted two questions on the warhammer forum about some unclear rules I came across last weekend. Many have replied but none have come with rules. So I put these questions before you to enlighten me.

1. Can a character issue a challenge when there are no characters fighting but there is a champion present.
If you follow the rules in the BRB ít can't. I find this very hard to accept so my question : is there an errata where this is explained?

2. When you have three wizards with the flames of the phoenix spell ( remains in play) can they cast that spell successfully on the same unit, does the unit get hit three times and do you have to dispell it thrice?

[Asq_Dak]

I don't quite follow question 1.

From the Big Red Book pg. 99:

Note that in order to participate in a challenge, either to issue it or to meet it, a character must be fighting in combat already

Is that what you meant? But on pg 109, at the end:

Champions are subject to the following rules which govern characters: they can accept and issue challenges...

So surely if champions are present then you can issue/accept challenges with no other character around... As for an errata on it, no idea.

Now 2:

umm... sure - it's from three different sources, so three effects, and each must be dispelled separately. I mean, after a spell is cast successfully you apply its effects, end of story. As for dispelling spells in play, you do not dispels spells on a unit, you dispel spells that are in play - so only one at a time.

Big Red pg 139:

...allowed to dipel ant spells that reain in play (unless they were cast in the same magic phase) if he has any dispel dice left. Note that he only needs to beat the casting value of the spell in question...

"the spell in question", so only one at a time. Does this help?

[peteratwar]

Netherbeing, I have seen your other thread. Frankly it seems you either cannot understand the rules or you don't want to believe what you have been told.

Challenges are issued by Characters or Champions. Very clear in BRB. Your opponent can accept them if he has a Character OR Champion. If he has neither then no challenge can be accepted. He may refuse the challenge in which case you may move one of his characters/champion to the rear for that round of combat. All this is very clear under the rules for Characters, Challenges and Champions.

Again on the spells if 3 wizards each have the same spell (perfectly allowable) then they can each cast that spell in their turn (where does it say they are prervented from so doing ?) They can each cast in on the same unit (again where does it say they cannot?. Each casting must be dispelled separately(unless cast with IR) as per the rules (again where does it say any different?)using dice (beating the casting roll) or a dispel scroll. With RiP spells if you fail the first time then in subsequent turns you may attempt the dispel using dice. If 3 spells are in play then 3 attempts are required (again where does it say any different?)

Strongly recommend you read all the rules carefully and think about them!

[Netherbeing]

Hello peteratwar, thanks for the upbuilding critisism on my posts.
The reason I posted it here also, is because I didn't get a clear enough answer to my question. Not because I don't want to hear the TRUTH

I do believe characters can issue challenges even when there are no characters to accept and that champions are treated as characters in this situation. It was my opponent who did not believe this. To get to the point,
I think I can convince him now he was wrong.

I can accept ( and have ) the fact that a unit can have the same remains in play spell cast and affect one unit. But It just seems strange.
- multiple walls of fire in front of a unit
- -6 ld with doom and darkness ( although not a remains in play spell )
- the bears anger giving a character +6 attacks, +4 strength and +2 toughness.

While you act as if I am the only one who is confused about this. I have not got one answer on this subject that did not contradict with the previous.
I did get carried away with my initial post here, but this was merely to illustrate my confusion. These things weren't my ideas, they were wild speculations.

[Riddy]

Is bears anger not limited to being cast on the wizard himself, meaning it could only ever be cast once on any one character.

[Neesh]

You can cast it on yourself or another friendly character in the same combat.

[Major Defense]

Riddy, The Bear's Anger was redefined to allow the caster to put it on himself or another character (not a champion!) in the same unit. I don't have the PDF URL handy but Beasts, Heavens and Life lores were changed since the 6th edition BRB.

I do believe characters can issue challenges even when there are no characters to accept

No. If there is no character or champion there to accept the challenge then you'd be issuing a challenge to thin air. It takes two to tango.

- multiple walls of fire in front of a unit
- -6 ld with doom and darkness ( although not a remains in play spell )
- the bears anger giving a character +6 attacks, +4 strength and +2 toughness.

Multiple Wall of Fire castings shouldn't be too confusing. Spells like Doom and Darkness or The Bear's Anger do not stack effects in the same way that damaging spells stack hits. The only benefit to stacking multiple castings of those spells on a target would be to make your enemy dispel it multiple times before removing the one effect.

[Festus]

Ah, now I see where you want to go at, Netherbeing:

A few things only kick in, if the bearer has challenged, and you desperately want those to work, right?

Well, a challenge needs exactly two models, either champions or characters, who can fight (i.e. are in a fighting position) to start with. If those requirements are not met, you cannot challenge or accept one.

Simple.

Greetings
Festus

[Netherbeing]

I. Have. To. Keep. Civilized. Aaaaargh!

Firstly: The people at the warhammer forum have finally given me a satisfactory answer (quote by gav), so this post has no use for me anymore.

Secondly: I play vampire counts. There is not a single rule or item that comes into effect with challenges in my whole armybook. So your assumption is completely wrong.

Thirdly: I created these posts because I wanted an answer which would be backed up by official rules. Not to prove me right.

Bye

[mageith]

Riddy, The Bear's Anger was redefined to allow the caster to put it on himself or another character (not a champion!) in the same unit.

Nope. The spell can be cast on ANY roughly-mansized model on foot in the same unit. (Chron 04, 92)

[Lordmonkey]

No. If there is no character or champion there to accept the challenge then you'd be issuing a challenge to thin air. It takes two to tango.

Nah, you can issue a challenge to a unit. There will be no-one to accept, and you'll look like an idiot, but you can still do it

And for the record, this is for such circumstances as Dark Elf/Skaven Assasins.

[mageith]

Nah, you can issue a challenge to a unit. There will be no-one to accept, and you'll look like an idiot, but you can still do it

"However, note that a challenge cannot be issued unless there is a character to fight--ordinary troopers or monsters cannot take up a challenge." (99)

I'd include champions here.

"Even though they are not characters, Champions are subject to the following rules which govern characters: they can accept and issue challenges..." (109)

Mage Ith

[Major Defense]

And for the record, this is for such circumstances as Dark Elf/Skaven Assasins.

Can you really "out" a hidden character like this? Is there any official wording to back up that claim?

[T10]

You really can't. The Assassin (if even able to accept the challenge - he is a character, right?) would have to be in a position to fight in order to issue/accept a challenge. And if he isn't revealed, then he doesn't fight.

-T10

[flytail]

I was worried about champions being able to accept and issue challenges, and I couldn't find the exact rules for it until I looked in this section explaining "champions, standard banners, and musicians." That section told me about challenges, and indeed champions can accept and issue challenges.

[Lordmonkey]

Can you really "out" a hidden character like this? Is there any official wording to back up that claim?

Nah your probably right tbh, the asassins could probably choose whether to accept or decline challenges.

[Warlord Gnashgrod]

hidden assassins don't even 'exist' until the player chooses for them to 'reveal themselves'. So until the assassin is revealed, he can't give/receive challenges

[Griefbringer]

Now, if a unit with assassin in it is in close combat, is there actually a reason for the player with the assassin not to reveal it (tactics-wise)?

[Festus]

Hi

Yes, quite a lot, really.
Most reasons however revolve about the use of certain magic items which are usable in a challenge.
If you know you are facing one of those, you can do quite well without those kicking in...

Greetings
Festus

[gukal]

Now, if a unit with assassin in it is in close combat, is there actually a reason for the player with the assassin not to reveal it (tactics-wise)?

Pretty hypothetical ... but here is a possibility.

1. Skaven unit with hidden assassin is charged in the flank by [insert your favorite super-destructive combat unit] and has no hope of victory even with the assassin.

2. Fleeing is not a useful option due to the proximity of the board edge.

3. The [super-destructive unit] will at least end up in a difficult bit of terrain for a few turns.

4. On the other side of the board, there are other Skaven units where it might be useful for the enemy to worry about a hidden assassin.

So ... you let your assassin die ignobly and anonymously so that you can keep up the bluff elsewhere. If you played every day of your life this might come up twice.