Revised rules for close combat weapons - a serious attempt

[anarchistica]

I figured i should post this here too, if only to save people from Maxwell's stuff (no offense, but...).

I started on this some time ago, i was unhappy with the way certain weapons worked. I actually did some research on how medieval-ish weapons supposedly worked, i even went and borrowed books from the library. :shock:

This stuff was part of a greater revision of 6th that i never got round to finish (i also did ranged weapons, attack types, etc). Basically, i made up some terms for more common rules and inserted some supposed logic. It should be obvious i got pretty far but this doesn't cover all weapons and such out there.

The most apparent change i made is the removal of strikes last/first. I replaced this with the Reach rule. Not only does this allow me to do a far more logical striking order where spears and halberds don't suck (as much), it also determines the amount of ranks spear/pikes fight in.

Feel free to tear it apart.
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Close Combat Weapons

http://img44.exs.cx/img44/7073/ccsummary2ep.jpg

General rules

Armour Piercing

Enemy armour saves suffer a -1 penalty.

Cavalry

These weapons can only be used if the bearer is mounted on a steed, monster, flying creature, chariot, or if the bearer is a Centaur.

Combined Arms

Certain single-handed weapons can be combined with other single-handed weapons. Hand weapons, choppas, ogre clubs and pistols are the most common examples of this.

If used with another weapon that has the Combined Arms rule, these grant the bearer +1 Attack. This rule only applies to models on foot and Centaurs.

Heavy

The wielder’s Initiative value is halved (rounded down). If the bearer is on foot and has Unit Strength 3 or more, the Heavy rule does not apply and his Initiative is not halved.

Impaling

A model or weapon can be noted to have an Impaling attack, which is followed by a number, usually 1 or 2. On the charge, the model or bearer of the weapon will receive a Strength bonus equal to that number.

Example: A Unicorn has in his profile the rule Impaling (2). In the turn that the Unicorn charges, he will get a Strength bonus of +2.

Parry

A single-handed weapon with the Parry rule will grant their bearer a +1 bonus to their armour save when used with a shield in close combat. Note that you can Parry with a magical shield or magical hand weapon.

Example: A model fighting with a hand weapon and shield in close combat will get a +1 armour save bonus. Together with his shield this gives him a 5+ armour save. If he had worn light armour (6+ armour save), he would now have a 4+ armour save.

Reach

Every weapon has a Reach value, and certain magic weapons, abilities and special rules might modify a model's Reach value.

In the first round of combat, models with the highest Reach value strike first, then the second highest, etc. If there is a tie, the charging unit strikes first.

In second and subsequent rounds of combat, models strike in order of Initiative (highest goes first) regardless of Reach. Models with Reach 5 count as having +10 Initiative for the purpose of striking order.

Also, every weapon or model with a Reach value of 1 or higher will ignore the enemy's armour save bonus for being mounted on a steed.

Steady

Some weapons, almost exclusively pole arms, require their user to steady them for full effect. Basically this means the user will position the bottom of the weapon’s shaft on the ground, often against his foot. The weapon will not give away easily now and the enemy might impale himself onto it if he is charging at a high velocity, trying to put his bulk to his advantage.

These rules only apply if the bearer has not moved this turn (if he is charged for instance) and if he is fighting against an opponent that is not attacking to the flank or rear of his unit.

His weapon will have a reach bonus of +1, and the bearer will receive a +1 Strength bonus against flyers and any models with Unit Strength 2 or higher that charge him. Also, the unit will fight in more ranks than the first, the number of ranks being equal to the current reach value. Note that this does include the reach bonus given and that models fighting in ranks behind the front rank can only ever make 1 attack at best.

Example 1: A unit of Knights charges a unit using Pikes. Since the Pikemen haven’t moved this turn they get +1 reach and fight in 3 (normal reach value) + 1 (steady bonus) is 4 ranks. Also, they get the +1 Strength bonus for being charged by Cavalry. On top of that they will ignore the Knights’ armour save bonus for being mounted on a steed because their weapon has a reach value higher than 0.

Example 2: A unit of Pikemen charges a unit of Knights. The special Steady rule of their pikes does not apply, so they fight in 1 rank as usual and get no Strength bonus. However, their pikes will allow them to ignore the Knights’ armour save bonus for being mounted on a steed, because their weapon has a reach value higher than 0.

Weapons

Body weapon

Most, if not all, creatures fight with their claws, hooves, teeth, tail, horn, tusks and other such weapons that are part of their body. Usually these don't follow special rules, but there are a few exceptions:

- Tail Attack: Some creatures, like Dragons, Wyverns and other great wyrms, have an exceptionally long and powerful tail. This is usually used to maintain their balance, but it's also very effective as a weapon. A model with a Tail Attack will receive an additional Attack in close combat. This attack can even be made if the model is killed before it gets the chance to use it's normal Attacks, but those other Attacks will be lost - it will take all of it's dying strength to make the Tail attack!

- Trample: Certain creatures, like Centigors, are known for their ability to use their weight and hooves to inflict hurt on the enemy. A model with the Trample rule gets an additional attack in close combat, which does not benefit from any special weapon bonuses or rules.

Example: Centigors carry cavalry spears and have the Trample rule. The cavalry spear gives them a +1 Strength bonus on their charge. This Strength bonus only applies to their normal attacks, not the special Trample attack, which is resolved at their basic Strength of 4.

Choppa

The rules for Combined Arms apply to choppas. Also, when used by models on foot, choppas are Impaling (1).

Flail

Can be used either single-handed or two-handed. In both cases, the weapon is Heavy and ignores the armour save bonus granted by the Parry rule.

Single-handed: Heavy; Ignores Parry; Strength Bonus +1 in first round of combat, no Strength Bonus in subsequent rounds

Two-handed: Two-handed; Heavy; Ignores Parry; Strength Bonus +2 in first round of combat, Strength Bonus +1 in subsequent rounds.

Note that morningstars have been removed from the list of weapons. If any model has the option to use a morning star, they follow the rules for flails instead. The reason for this is that morning stars did not always have a chain linking the head and shaft. Some were basically maces with spiked heads. Models that had the morningstar option nearly always had the chain variant, so it was more appropriate to simply categorize them as flails.

Halberd

A halberd can be used by both mounted models and models on foot. It is always Two-handed.

Models on foot with WS4 or less, and mounted models can only use the Blade of the halberd.

Models on foot with WS5 or more must choose at the start of the combat which part of the weapon they will use, either the Blade, Hook or Point.

Blade: +1 Strength bonus

Hook: Mounted models wounded by the Hook only get armour save bonuses for shields, barding and magical armour that can be combined with mundane armour and shields.

Point: Steady. The only exception to the normal rules for Steady is that your Reach is not increased by 1. This is due to the fact that a halberd has a ponderous blade and hook in addition to the point, which requires the user to hold the halberd closer to the tip.

Hand Weapon

The Parry and Combined Arms rules apply to hand weapons.

All magic weapons are assumed to be hand weapons, unless stated otherwise. Magic Weapons that are hand weapons use the Parry rule as normal, but they do not use the Combined Arms rule.

Lance

Can only be used in the turn in which the wielder charges. If charged, or after the first combat round, the bearer will have to use some other weapon (most likely his hand weapon).

Ogre Club

The Parry and Combined Arms rules apply to ogre clubs. In addition, when you do not use the Combined Arms rule, the Armour Piercing rule applies to ogre clubs.

Whip

Wielder can attack from the second, third and fourth rank. If used against a model in base contact it follows the rules for Combined Arms.

Source

[maxwell123]

Anarchista,

Rather unnecessarily complex and wide reaching changes. I really don't like the idea of removing the ability to strike first charging models get. That has been one of the foundations of the Warhammer combat system and has worked really well.

Altering the weapons so drastically just confuses the game more and complicates calculations.

I like the idea of introducing additional weapons with their own simple rules, but not additional special rules (reach, parry, combined arms, etc).

Your system would just confuse a lot of players and your rules for the halberd and a few other weapons are overly complex.

[Akuma]

Yeah I have to agree with Maxwell ( for the 1 time since the days of old portent ).

TO complex - this is a game for everyone ( little kids too ) and GW would never made changes that limited the player group.

Reach thing is strange and most of all not intuitional - why the hack long sword - from an ogre for example doesnt have greater reach then goblin wilded sword ???

New GW rules - good this is the thing thay could do - halving initiative would mean that certain armys would be good even when using them - like elf generals - BUT the thing with big monsters is that thay usualy have low I - and tell me minotaurs have 4I what armys would sprung out from this ??? And the other thing rounding down is bed as it takes you from I5 to I2 with acomplishes just nothing - you wont hit fester than skilly and same as normal man - and i was under impression that elf shoud hit with GW with the same spead that normal human soldier.

Overall i would say that for a nonmainstream game this with some minor tweeks i've suggested would be nice set of rules but for a mass game like Wfb thay are just too complicated

[anarchistica]

I really don't like the idea of removing the ability to strike first charging models get. That has been one of the foundations of the Warhammer combat system and has worked really well.

Pikes and Strikes First stuff break this rule, why should halberds and spears not?

Altering the weapons so drastically just confuses the game more and complicates calculations.

Drastically? It's almost the same as the current situation. The main differences are that spears are mini-pikes, halberds wielded by WS5 units get 2 alternate uses, and both weapons strike after what are 'strikes first' weapons now & are armour piercing against cavalry. Aside from that there are just some minor tweaks.

I like the idea of introducing additional weapons with their own simple rules, but not additional special rules (reach, parry, combined arms, etc).

Those rules exist but are not defined or named otherwise.

Parry and Combined Arms obviously exist, but they're not defined. If you look at 40K, you will see that most weapons refer to the rulebook for their rules. Currently, GW has to repeat "fighting with 2 hand weapons" and "fighting with a hand weapon and a shield" in the Orc and Ogre books, this is a bit silly.

Reach replaces Strikes First and Strikes Last. It works exactly like Initiative. Not that complicated.

Steady replaces Fight in Ranks and includes the pike-strength bonus against certain troops. Aside from that latter thing, it's exactly the same as it is now.

Your system would just confuse a lot of players and your rules for the halberd and a few other weapons are overly complex.

The Hook and Point rules for the halberd only apply to some characters and 3 units. I don't think that'd be much of a problem, since everyone can remember all the other 'special' rules units have.

TO complex - this is a game for everyone ( little kids too ) and GW would never made changes that limited the player group.

Well i don't expect kids to be interested in revised rules.

Reach thing is strange and most of all not intuitional - why the hack long sword - from an ogre for example doesnt have greater reach then goblin wilded sword ???

Actually, US3+ models would get +1 Reach, and US6+ models +2 Reach, so an Ogre would indeed strike before a Goblin. However, aside from that, Reach only is used to represent polearms.

New GW rules - good this is the thing thay could do - halving initiative would mean that certain armys would be good even when using them - like elf generals - BUT the thing with big monsters is that thay usualy have low I - and tell me minotaurs have 4I what armys would sprung out from this ???

What do you mean? Sprung out?

And the other thing rounding down is bed as it takes you from I5 to I2 with acomplishes just nothing - you wont hit fester than skilly and same as normal man - and i was under impression that elf shoud hit with GW with the same spead that normal human soldier.

A normal Elf would not strike as fast as a human soldier, but an elite elf possibly could and fast characters most certainly could.

[Akuma]

Well i don't expect kids to be interested in revised rules.

Well you should because if some of that would go into revised 7Ed Roolbook everyone with his models would have to use it - so Little kids buying minitures have their rights

Actually, US3+ models would get +1 Reach, and US6+ models +2 Reach, so an Ogre would indeed strike before a Goblin. However, aside from that, Reach only is used to represent polearms.

Was this in the initial post - if it would be like that it would be fair - BUT it complicates things even further.

What do you mean? Sprung out?

Minotaur armys would benefit most from the changes - khorne minotaur army would be nearly unstopable

A normal Elf would not strike as fast as a human soldier, but an elite elf possibly could and fast characters most certainly could.

ok so we have diffrent oppinions on this topic

I see much crap in you post still -> you didnt fix the halabard problem at all - for elves and chaos - yes - but what about empire ??? brets ??? Halabard would be much much rearer choice than a spear and thay were more common + does hook does both things ??? - one from the disscription and one from the white paper sheet ???

[maxwell123]

Anarchista,

Ok, let's say we were to go with your Reach system. I don't even like some of the reach values you have given certain weapon. For one, you would kill the use of great weapons.

Great weapons do have a long reach and when charging should definitely still strike first. Removing that ability removes the point of taking them in the first place for many units. The likes of Swordmasters, White Lions, Executioners, Greatswords etc would be pretty useless if they could no longer strike first when charging a unit of Chaos Warrior halberdiers or Saurus Warrior spearmen for example. Hell, even against Empire Spearmen the very vulnerable Elves with great weapons would become much less effective if they couldn't strike first.

I'd say the great weapon should have a reach value of 2.

The halberd should also have a reach value of 2. Halberds were traditionally longer than spears anyway.

Pikes should probably given a reach value of 4 if lances get a reach of 3. The whole idea of pikes is an anti-cavalry weapon. Giving the pike and lance the same reach will result in charging cavalry still striking first against pikemen under your rules.

That said, I still prefer the current system where chargers always strike first.

[maxwell123]

Flail

Can be used either single-handed or two-handed. In both cases, the weapon is Heavy and ignores the armour save bonus granted by the Parry rule.

Single-handed: Heavy; Ignores Parry; Strength Bonus +1 in first round of combat, no Strength Bonus in subsequent rounds

Two-handed: Two-handed; Heavy; Ignores Parry; Strength Bonus +2 in first round of combat, Strength Bonus +1 in subsequent rounds.

Note that morningstars have been removed from the list of weapons. If any model has the option to use a morning star, they follow the rules for flails instead. The reason for this is that morning stars did not always have a chain linking the head and shaft. Some were basically maces with spiked heads. Models that had the morningstar option nearly always had the chain variant, so it was more appropriate to simply categorize them as flails.

Fair point Anar, but its just simpler to have the morning star and flail listed separately. Also, no way should the single handed flail count as Heavy. There would be absolutely no point in taking it for a minor +1S first round bonus if you knew you would be forced to strike last against most enemies in latter rounds. The two handed flail should count as Heavy, but not the single handed version.

Personally, I'd just prefer the single handed version be left classified as a morning star. Its simpler that way and would cause less confusion.

[anarchistica]

Well you should because if some of that would go into revised 7Ed Roolbook everyone with his models would have to use it - so Little kids buying minitures have their rights

I'm working on subheaders for the bigger rules now, it should make things more clear.

Was this in the initial post - if it would be like that it would be fair - BUT it complicates things even further.

I should mention it yes, i'll try to put up something more complete in a bit.

Minotaur armys would benefit most from the changes - khorne minotaur army would be nearly unstopable

Well halberds and spears would now be striking before they do, and the latter would get +1S against them too. Plus, Khorne minotaurs suck, you can both bait them and throw piecemeal at them.

I see much crap in you post still -> you didnt fix the halabard problem at all - for elves and chaos - yes - but what about empire ??? brets ??? Halabard would be much much rearer choice than a spear and thay were more common

Dude, halberds now strike before hand weapons, great weapons, flails, etc. Also, they're 'armour piercing' against cavalry, that's a huge benefit as most halberd-wielders are S3 and this allows them to reduce 1+ armour saves to the critical 3+ (double chance of failing).

does hook does both things ??? - one from the disscription and one from the white paper sheet ???

My bad, it was a last minute change, will fix it.

Ok, let's say we were to go with your Reach system. I don't even like some of the reach values you have given certain weapon. For one, you would kill the use of great weapons.

Great Weapons are still awesome. They might strike after pikes, spears and halberds, but they still give +2S and don't automatically strike last now. Spears are somewhat common on the battlefield, but halberds are quite rare and pikes only appear on 1 unit. Most spearmen are quite weak (S3) and most great weapon users have higher WS, T and/or a decent save. The chance a unit with great weapons gets defeated is bigger yes, but i think it's still very much in balance. The idea is to stop them from being staples and making you think twice about which unit you charge.

Great weapons do have a long reach and when charging should definitely still strike first. Removing that ability removes the point of taking them in the first place for many units. The likes of Swordmasters, White Lions, Executioners, Greatswords etc would be pretty useless if they could no longer strike first when charging a unit of Chaos Warrior halberdiers or Saurus Warrior spearmen for example. Hell, even against Empire Spearmen the very vulnerable Elves with great weapons would become much less effective if they couldn't strike first.

I'd say the great weapon should have a reach value of 2.

No. Reach 1+ is only for 3 things: Polearms, US3+ models and magical abilities.

And in my experience Elven units such as those don't stand much of a chance against Sauri and Chaos Warriors anyway. However, yes while you could technically break those on the charge, you would be 100% dead if you didn't. With these rules, Elves with Great Weapons have In2 (Swordmasters still In6) so would strike before In1 Sauri in second and further rounds. It's a good point, but i'm not sure if it matters that much (and have you ever seen anyone take CW Halberdiers? ).

I think some units might need a small point reduction/uppage anyway, though overall it should work to make the spear actually worth the cost over hw/shield.

The halberd should also have a reach value of 2. Halberds were traditionally longer than spears anyway.

Nope. Spears went up to 20' (you usually call them pikes if longer than 10') and halberds were shorter because of the cumbersome blade and hook.

Pikes should probably given a reach value of 4 if lances get a reach of 3. The whole idea of pikes is an anti-cavalry weapon. Giving the pike and lance the same reach will result in charging cavalry still striking first against pikemen under your rules.

Nope, read Steady. Pikes work exactly the same as they do now, with the exception that they are 'armour piercing' against cavalry.

Fair point Anar, but its just simpler to have the morning star and flail listed separately. Also, no way should the single handed flail count as Heavy. There would be absolutely no point in taking it for a minor +1S first round bonus if you knew you would be forced to strike last against most enemies in latter rounds. The two handed flail should count as Heavy, but not the single handed version.

I think i'm going to remove the Heavy rule entirely from flails, i think i made it that way because of the huge flailheads on Marauder flails.

Personally, I'd just prefer the single handed version be left classified as a morning star. Its simpler that way and would cause less confusion.

Yes i might revert that, if only to make this work with the current armybooks.

Good points, especially the latter ones.

I'll work some more on it, it's still very much WIP (even after a year!).

[DrCamf]

I think that there is some very good ideas in the suggested weapon rules, and would sure like to try them out, are all for making the game a little more complex, and are not against that charging unit don't hit first they didn't do that automatically in 3rd edition, where you hit after initiativ and only if the the initiativ were the same would charging be considered. I would make more sense if a i5 with a spear hit before a i2 with a great weapon. But that is just my 2 cents

[anarchistica]

Mordheim, 40K and WAB all have rules that break the "chargers strike first" thing too.

And yes, still working on this, i am doing a complete overhaul.

[DrCamf]

Would be cool to see keep us posted.

[anarchistica]

Would be cool to see keep us posted.

It will take a while, i'm working on a few others things as well. I'm considering making it a fully functional revision, stating stuff even for magic weapons and spells, etc. I'm doing something similar for ranged weapons.

It's quite entertaining to see how GW messes things up. There are 2 different rules for "nets", "ice weapons" and "portable bolt throwers" (harpoon launchers/giant bow). Even worse, they made up 3 different rules for how blunderbusses work.