A thread just for you Easy.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89337
Hellebore
A thread just for you Easy.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89337
Hellebore
"Humanity's Insignificance pales in comparison to its Ego." (Sir Rumplestiltskin)
"The capacity to think does not assign importance to your thoughts, it merely indicates you can." (Sir Rumplestiltskin)
Why can't there be other guilds too? Like the Industrialists guild, or the Miner's guild?Originally Posted by Easy E
I don't like just calling them 'Engineers', Engineer Guards or Guild Warriors would be better.
I don't like calling it a Gyrocopter, as a helicopter or similar in 40k would be far too fragile.
And can we have it so that they don't have Imperial vehicles, considering they're a seperate fighting force with their own style.
Again, don't like the Imperial stuff.
I'm not too good at drawing vehicles, so I've no pictures to show, though I have an idea. It's basically a sentinel, with cosmetic changes obviously, with two short 'wings' on either side to support extra weapons. It would basically be used for supporting infantry, as it would be lightly armoured, but have quite a few anti-infantry weapons stuck on it. I was thinking the basic infantry unit could take one each, in return for taking no special weapons [or only one special weapon] and no transport, for a suitable points cost.
I was under the impression that all Varingyr have a money based society, so True Varingyr, who are also propelled by an honour code, would indeed become suicide guard.
The way I think about this is that all Squat societies have a fundamental belief of capitalist, money-based societies. That is their foundational strata... okay? Now each society has layers of strata representing their history and characteristic (this is how some historians describe our own societies); but in this case, the foundational strata is capitalism for the Squats.
On top of this foundation, I see the Squats having layers of different cultural influences which produce different perspectives on their own foundational belief - capitalism.
So, considering the true and chaos Squats first;
the True would have the most strongest 'faith' on the Ancestor Belief system (a form of Animism); this way their capitalist system is seen in a way to please their ancestors (a form of honour or as actual tributes to ancestors like the way when I goto my grandparents grave in Korea we take dead-money and burn it there); in return the ancestor belief provides a framework for the true squats' societies' morality. By having a culture of ancestor worship, they shape the way they look at the society, their morality is therefore shaped by capitalism first, then ancestor worship second.
In turns of the Chaos Squats, the way I see it is that they also believe in Capitalism first, but secondary belief is that of Chaos. But even then, I prefer them to have a stronger influence from Capitalism (where as the true had stronger influence from the ancestorworship/family ties); therefore instead of the secondary strata of cultural influence warping the foundational layer, the reverse happens. Capitalist mentality warps the way the Squats believe in Chaos and the Chaos gods, hence my preference for them to call Chaos itself Mammon (idea and term provided by some other member here, sorry I can't remember your name); with the different Chaos gods being represented as different aspects of greed and evil in relation to capitalism.
So going back to the suicide squad, I think it can suit either true or chaos; but what is the decisive factor is the name 'suicide'. I think this has a connotation that they don't see a reason to live no more and are willing to die as quickly as possible.
But consider such a unit represented by both my True and Chaos societies; in the true society the suicide unit would be considered in same light as 'slayers' because they've dishonoured their direct ancestors (family), and not only seek death on battle but death from the deadliest foes around. They die to seek repentance in a way. On the other hand the Chaos societies become enslaved by, what some argue moral-lacking, capitalist belief. Therefore their reason for military service is to pay off the debt, and their reason for being in dangerous situation is out of their control - slayers on the other hand choose to be in dangerous situation. The second 'chaos' suicide unit therefore is bound by their cultural restrictions; where as the first 'true' suicide unit is given freedom from their cultural restrictions by their belief - they're literally set loose from the society to seek vengence and death.
But there is a third way (and probably more ways) to interprete this. What about a suicide squad that is bound by capitalist virtues (i.e. to owe money via life) but also incorporates the idea of family honour? Therefore instead of forcibly becoming indebted, the Squat in question is given the choice to become part of the suicide squad. So once he's broke, and he needs to pay back the loaner, he can either work for him in his factories or be his servant, or choose to join the Suicide Squad. This way, he gets paid like any other soldier, which goes directly back to the loaner. Therefore the broke Squat must survive for long as he can, so as not to shame his family by not being able to the loaner back. Ultimately these guys become solid veterans because they don't want to die; first for the money; second in fear of shaming their family.
This is atleast within my own Squat universe, where bits and pieces to fit together and make sense in my head. So don't think this is the canon way to approach things.
Also, in terms of Imperial naming, I believe Easy E did this out of convenience, I mean... I would rather stick with the imperial terms that I'm familiar with for now, when we're still developing the race, rather than having to use new terms that i donno why they use it. The Imperial terms have connotations, we know that the Demolisher is an assault boom cannon, and the Inferno is a flamethrower, and we instantly recognise the Whirldwind as a missile launcher platform. I know, I know, we should be thinking up of new names, but like I said, convenience is the rule of thumb - hence my constant use of Squats since it's the term that I'm familiar with.
In terms of guilds, I've never thought too much into it. I don't like the term 'guild' reminds me too much of Dune, but there is no other good words to replace it that I can think of. Also, we could have multiple guilds, as you have said, we could have industrialist, corporate guilds that look after different aspects of Squat society, but would they really be on the battlefield as often as engineers (thinking of them as combat engineers and their leaders). Maybe it is possible to have these political figures on the battlefield, very much like the Tau ethereals, who maintain leadership on the battlefield. But... that would mean an obvious cloning of the tau army into the Squat army - a non-combatant political figurehead being on the battlefield - yes the Squat representative can be an armed warrior, but I see no reason why he would be there, when he could be clearly be in more authoritative position back home.
Different guilds a definitely a good idea, but we're trying to make an army list (the military combatants who would actually show up on the field) and the fluff 'list', the society, which will include for the majority combatants (because this is 'war') but also a healthy number of non-combatants.
Because this is a free-public board, we don't have a certain system to recognise which opinion is applicable to which. But since Easy E has been pretty clear that it is an army list, I don't think it's a restrictive list of what the Squat society as a whole is... i.e. we can always add bits because this is the army, not the society/race as a whole.
I just get the feeling that you're sometimes misunderstanding or misinterpreting the stuff that is written here, but I see no problems with that, since it's just difference of opinion - which is a good thing. Tell me if I'm wrong.
sj
Quick question, when, precisely, was it ostensibly agreed upon that the Varingr were simply 40ks version of the Ferengi with an Animistic belief system in place of the Rules of Acquisition?
IMNSHO it just doesn't jibe.
@MF3000- OT: I have to disagree with one point you made earlier, in that Ancestor Worship is, in fact, just as valid a system of religion as any other, just because some contemporary countries treat it as a pseudo-religion and deign not to place as great a deal of importance on it as some other countries place on other religions that doesn't mean diddly. Ancestor Veneration is as valid, if not more valid, than some religions I can think of. <cough> *Scientology* <cough>
MD
Hmmm de ja vu
Like said, I wans't supporting the idea that ancestor worship was an invalild religion. Again, I cannot be bothered to go back and search for what I said; so here's an updated opinion.
Agreed with MadDoc.
What would you like to see as Squat religion/culture then?
sj
They're nothing like the Ferengi! The Ferengi don't care about their family, they only care about profit. Profit, profit, profit and more profit. They believe men to be better than women, who aren't allowed to wear clothes, talk to strangers or leave their home planet. They'd sell their own grandmother if there was profit in it for them. They're a group of hating, scheming, exploiting little capitalists, who work only for themselves. [Note: This is all before the last season of DS9, when Ferengi society totally changed].
Varingyrs work to pay their respects to their Ancestors, they would never backstab, cheat or lie for personal gain, as they are driven by a strict honour code which prevents this.
They're different.
In response to MF3000's long post, I agree, and like your ideas about Varingyr society, and the suicide squads.
For the True Varingyr, the 'suicide' squads, would essentially be elite warriors, that would either be an Elite or a retinue choice, they would be used as heavy infantry. They would have failed to pay some huge debt to another Varingyr, and are now paying it off by using their fighting skills, or paying for it with their life if their fighting skills prove inadequate. This would, of course, create tough veterans.
Perhaps they could have a 'venerable' option, similar to the SM Dreadnaught's option, giving them, say, +1 WS or a 6+ inv. save, to represent their skill.
Suicide squads in the Maelstrom Varingyr would be squads of workers who have 'disappointed' their lord, and are now forced to fight.
Perhaps they could be armed with bombs that explode when they die?
As for different guilds, I believe there should be a few [3 or so] 'main' guilds, Engineers', Industrialists', Miners'/Blacksmiths' and perhaps others.
When you choose a Guildmaster, they each give certain benifits. An Engineer Guildmaster would allow you to have prototype weapons [Graviton guns maybe?] and maybe be required to take Engineer Guild Guards [although I'm not surea about that].
An Industrialist Guildmaster would allow you to take, say, an extra heavy weapons choice, or perhaps take 'batteries' of 2 tanks of a certain type of tank. Or perhaps extra special/heavy weapons in a squad.
A Miner/Blacksmith Guildmaster would, in effect, make your weapons better quality, allowing, perhaps, HQs' retinues and Elites to take the Mastercrafted upgrade for all base guns [not for special or heavy weapons, and not for close combat weapons] for a suitable points cost.
It would certainly add something new to the army.
Well, I've got Embittered units - dipossessed/dishonoured ronin cross slayer Varyngr that roam the core as mercenaries.
They are always hopped up on drugs and alcohol, and charge into battle with reckless abandon.
However they aren't honoured, they're shunned. They are never factored into the strategic plans of the Wardens, but are treated as wildcard units left to go about their own devices.
Suffice to say that since the fall of the Leagues there has been a HUGE surge in Embittered populations wandering the Core.
Hellebore
"Humanity's Insignificance pales in comparison to its Ego." (Sir Rumplestiltskin)
"The capacity to think does not assign importance to your thoughts, it merely indicates you can." (Sir Rumplestiltskin)
This is the art thread~~~ please keep it artistic~~~ not ruleeee relatedddd~~~ or at least draw into a conclusion that has to do with the aesthetic appeal of the Squats.
sj
Oh, sorry.
So should I draw Maelstrom Varingyr Suicide Squads with bombs strapped to them, or without? Maybe the bombs could be an upgrade, in which case I could draw both.
It's up to you. If you think it'd work ... then go for it.
sj
Yeah, as for the naming conventions there are two reasons.
1. Convenience of understanding the intent of the weapon system. For example, a Bore Miner is Basically a Drop Pod. Some support weapons will have similar rules to Imperial Equivalents, with a few tweaks here and there. However, the idea is the same.
2. Their tech is based off of STC designs, just like the Imperials. The difference is that they have adapted them to fit their needs/environment. The base would be similar. So, if they have a Raider style transport, it will look similar to a Land Raider in lines, but be different enough to infer it is not an Imperial Land Raider.
As for the Guilds, I see the Engineers Guild as being the only other guild interested in going to war with the Brotherhoods. The other guilds are too small to be represented, or not universal across Varingyr space, they are Stronghold specific. This is essentially a spin off of the older army list.
Cheapest. Army. Ever. - Armored Company or Stompa Tribe
Varingyr (Neo-Squats) Threads- Background , Concept Art , 40K Rules Dev , and BFG Rules Dev .
Aquanautica Imperialis- FREE, naval game for the 40K Universe. Here: http://www.box.net/shared/e2dmaf1zaj
Sorry to Double Post:
I created a Rules Discussion Thread here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...81#post1663281
So if you want to talk about specific units, troop choices, or game stats let's take it here.
I think it would be great to have a fomralized set of Rules for the Summer 40K 2008 Campaign. Then we can have Varingyr forces participate as an organized faction from Warseer.
Cheapest. Army. Ever. - Armored Company or Stompa Tribe
Varingyr (Neo-Squats) Threads- Background , Concept Art , 40K Rules Dev , and BFG Rules Dev .
Aquanautica Imperialis- FREE, naval game for the 40K Universe. Here: http://www.box.net/shared/e2dmaf1zaj
But, the Engineers' guild invents new technologies, which is a small-scale operation, whereas the Industrialists' guild would control the manufacture of a variety of vehicles and weapons, along with managing maintenance, a large-scale and highly profitable job. The Miners'/Blacksmiths' guild would supervise the extraction of raw materials, which is the largest scale job of the three, and would still generate more revenue than the Engineers would.
Basically, the Engineers' Guild would be small and elite, whereas the Industrialists and Miners'/Blacksmiths' Guilds would go by the motto 'The more the merrier'.
Having different Guildmasters giving different bonuses would add something to the background, and it would make the army list truly unique.
In the "Ravenor" series, Sholto Unworth has a servant called a manhound ("Fyflank" IIRC), basically an upright mastiff that seems pretty sentient. How do people feel about having these manhounds as auxiliary troops? Possibly personnel transports?
_ _ _ _ __ ___ _____ __________________________________________ _____ ___ __ _ _ _ _
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
NO, HE'S NOT ALRIGHT! You just put METAL in his BRAINMEATS.
I don't like the idea. Enough armies have some sort of extra model they can just attach to a character, and having an actual squad of hounds would be taking idea from the Kroot.
Personnel transports? They can carry a Varingyr? Besides, still no, Varingyr are not mobile and would not have fast attack riders like that.
I don't know if they'd be too fast; I have a mental image of a squat riding a bipedal mastiff, yelling "Faster, faster, you fool!", and the manhound just rolling his eyes...
My thinking is that if the Varyngr have been severely culled by the Tyranid incursion, they may need a helping hand, and given their trust issues, who's more trustworthy than the family pooch?
_ _ _ _ __ ___ _____ __________________________________________ _____ ___ __ _ _ _ _
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
NO, HE'S NOT ALRIGHT! You just put METAL in his BRAINMEATS.
Yeah, hence the enormous amount of effort being put into diplomatic actions... hence having resources to trade with!money money money money money makes the world go around~~~~ it's Donald Trump's favourite army.
Except instead of the hairpiece it's a beard. @_@
Dog soldiers sound interesting, but maybe we can use that for the so called 'indebted' lot. lol if they're really in trouble with money, then they're forced to piggy-back carry some of the warriors lol. But that seems a little farny.
sj
My idea for the Indebted would mean that they don't even have the right to own things any more, and their armour and weapons are given to them by their owners.
Still don't like dog warriors. Some form of large, slow moving animal, maybe, but not dog riders, we're trying to get rid of all the silly things that GW put in their army list, not add new ones.
Well you misunderstood what I meant. I meant the indebted be treated like 'dog soldiers' and called as such. Be used as beasts of burden, that sorta thing.
But it was a joke.
sj
I always liked the idea of True Varingyr using a lot of mercenaries to supplement their armies. After all why waste precious Varingyr life, when you can pay some trinkets for someone else to waste their life instead. Then, more Varingyr to reproduce and prosper. That would open the scope of the model range to all sorts of craziness.
However, a lot of people dismissed this idea as the Varingyr would be to concerned about betrayal to enlist mercenaries. For the purposes of creating a workable model range, I will agree with the Betrayal= No Mercs crowd.
Last edited by Easy E; 22-06-2007 at 10:11.
Cheapest. Army. Ever. - Armored Company or Stompa Tribe
Varingyr (Neo-Squats) Threads- Background , Concept Art , 40K Rules Dev , and BFG Rules Dev .
Aquanautica Imperialis- FREE, naval game for the 40K Universe. Here: http://www.box.net/shared/e2dmaf1zaj
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