The deffrollas can never get close enough
The deffrollas can never get close enough
First to comment on madd0ct0r's post, boarding planks are great -- really great -- but can only be used when each vehicle has not moved more than 12". Not very common against Mechdar, I'm afraid. (Fabulous against dreads, though.)
Grabbin' klaws are a wonderful rude surprise -- most people don't use them, and I'm not sure why not. They aren't expensive upgrades to battlewagons (it would be awesome if trukks got them, but they don't), and if you can end your turn next to a waveserpent or falcon, you've got a 50% chance of rendering it effectively immobile its next turn. (It's fun to move up next to dreads, pound on them with a boarding plank, and then prevent them from moving the next turn... Not reliable, but this is orks after all.)
Nob bikers, if you field them, get sufficient high-strength attacks to kill the living heck out of serpents. I am not a fan of the nob biker, however, and do not suggest fielding them.
Deffkoptaz with TLRLs can zoom up one flank and threaten a pretty darn big area. Being on the side/rear while you have other threats in the middle make it difficult for the Eldar player to not expose that AV10 to *something* that's going to take serious advantage of it.
Lootas are reasonably good, especially with their very long range, and leave very few places for wave serpents to hide. They are expensive, somewhat fragile, and a priority target -- but that's ok, if you can position other things to take advantage of the fact that you know they're a priority target. They are fickle, and tend to get one shot each when you really need that weight of fire, and that is less ok. YMMV.
Snikrot and some kommandos can be useful when your opponent knows you have them, because it encourages them to stay away from the board edges until they come on. (Kommandos have stikkbombz, and Snikrot is S6 on the charge, so even though you're hitting on sixes, any hits you make will likely hurt!) [If your opponent leaves any vehicle within 12" -- or possibly 18" with a WAAAGH! -- of a board edge, Snikrot and his boyz can assault it the turn they enter play. Nasty!]
I often bring three maxed-out squads of stormboyz. They're preposterously fast, take up a lot of space on the table, and not only can the PK do some damage to a waveserpent, all those S4-on-the-charge attacks really do add up. Three squads of 20 stormboyz can literally cover the entire table with an assault threat by the end of turn one... Even in Dawn of War. Just drag those serpents out of the sky with good old-fashioned choppy! [Note: I'm not much of a fan of Zagstruk, though, as he is too unpredictable -- and dicey to use against Mechdar anyway.]
Trukks can do the same thing. Squads of trukkboyz can move and assault over preposterously long distances (especially with a WAAAAGH!). Keep in mind that the PK is not the only thing that can knock the heck out of a serpent. The other eleven boyz in the trukk get 44 attacks on the charge. That should average out to around one glancing hit -- which isn't great, but until those weedy space elves get out of their transports, do you have anything better to do? (And besides, a slightly above average roll can really ruin their day... And that happens half the time!)
People laugh at me, but I love tankbustaz with a warphead. You go for 'Ere We Go and drop in behind mechanized units to shoot rear armor with rokkits. Sure, you won't hit many times, but S8 on AV10 is pretty easy...
Deffrolla wagons are great, and given that each one can cover a 26"-diameter circle (slightly larger to the pivot-then-move mechanic), I don't see how an Eldar player can effectively run from them all game... Consider also that the orks inside said battlewagons get a 2" (really 3" deployment), 6" assault, and possibly a 6" WAAAGH! as well -- enough for them to join the "chopping serpents out of the sky" party.
Vehicles run out of room very quickly, and if they're zipping around 24" the whole game, they're not shooting or deploying troops. Once the tanks are on the ground, Mechdar infantry are pretty easy to overwhelm -- though watch out for Yriel. As an Eldar player I have quite literally killed 30-strong units of boyz in a single combat phase, just with that one guy.
Thank you Meriwether!
You've given a lot for me to think about. With the exception of stormboyz, I have the units you've mentioned. I'll adjust me army and see how well they do next time.
I love that "I'll just try it and see -- the worst I can do is lose!" attitude. I wish more gamers had it...
I forgot to mention that I always put rokkits on my trukks. Trukk rokkits won't do much (despite their overabundance of the letter 'k'), but the occasional glancing or penetrating hit certainly doesn't *hurt*... I have no use for big shootas, because orks don't need help killing light infantry.
I'm started to get that feeling.
I played Mech Eldar and then Nids. In both cases I wished I had taken more Rokkits to target the armor and MCs.
Aye I agree on the rokkit on trukk topic.
During a local club tournament I used rokkits on my trukks and in a game against blood beakies one trukk single handedly destroyed 1 rhino, 1 dreadnought and 1 whirlwind.
May I point out to you that this was in three consecutive turns.
Yes the odds is amazingly low but we play da orks and all I can say that alot of our things depend on that lucky roll, that's what makes being green so much fun.
And rokkit trukk always is a possible threat both after and before the boyz have been delivered.
There's also the added bonus, that the Trukk basicly just has to kill one vehicle to make it's points back, twice at least, and that's in addition to it's primary task of transportation.
Trukk's are amazing vehicles really... Tank Shocks, Rams, Rokkits, and horrible explosions when they die. Can't ask for more. If only my Grots could have Trukks
Did it kill something important
Did it kill something expensive.
Obviously killing a land raider with no impact on the game, is less valuable than killing a Rhino that was contesting your objective in the final round. If however you killed the Rhino with a Trukk instead of a three times as expensive Battlewagon, you come ahead in both actions and economy.
Playing warhammer 40.000 is like all battles, a question of ressources and who runs out first. If you have 2000 points of ressources, and you can take away 150 of his with 45 of yours, then you are ahead. As you say, values increase or decrease dramaticly with objectives and positioning, but claiming that points costs are completely irellevant is bull as well
You can't kill important things, if you have been wiped of the face of the earth, because things in my army killed three times their worth in yours. In addition you have to put in actions and units to kill a vehicle worth next to nothing, and which has already done it's job and delivered a bunch of boyz, thus pulling ressources out of you for next to no gain (unless it's a KP mission ofcourse).
I agree that talking about making the points back is often abused and silly, but so is the elitist comments about them
Did it distract my opponent?
Did it disrupt his battle plan?
Did it absorb fire that would have been directed at something more important to my battle plan?
Did it further my battle plan?
Did it serve as bait?
Did it anchor a unit so that it could be dealt with in later turns?
Even if a unit which "does nothing but kill" manages to kill nothing before it dies, it might still be an effective and important component of a battle plan. "Points back" is irrelevant.
For example, I commonly bring either two or three squads of twenty stormboyz, with PK nob -- a huge points expenditure. It is not uncommon for them to be shot to ribbons, break and run before they get to my opponent's line. And yet they're totally worth it, because the immediate threat of the stormboyz must be dealt with if my opponent wants to have a prayer of winning, and yet devoting the necessary resources to destroying the stormboyz has an opportunity cost: the rest of my army has advanced that much further unmolested.
That's *hilarious*. (And even if it is an elitist statement, that doesn't make it wrong.)
I think I may be odd man out on the Trukk+Rokkit issue...but my points are so tight at 1500 and 1750 that I usually forgo the Rokkits and hope to harass the enemy with Big Shootaz. Heck, at 1500 and 1750, my Footslogging shoota mob nobs have uge choppas instead of PKs...
But that's also because I run a Kan Wall + Trukkaz combo...
Current Project - Dark Eldar: Legion of Equestria - Making 40k 20% cooler.
Well, the smallest games I play are 1850, so that might make all the difference.
Meriwether... I called you an elitist because of a basic knee-jerk reaction here on warseer, that is "someone said points back, BURN HIM!". In case you didn't notice, my original post said "There's also the added bonus", which pretty much implies that this is in addition to doing it's job, which is transport.
I can rewrite it to "there's also the added bonus, that the points you used to purchase the Trukk, not only bought you a transport which has fulfilled it's primary purpose, but also keeps on performing admirably, thus gaining you further tactical advantages every round".
I don't see this going anywhere, because we're debating two entirely different things, and I'd rather not derail this fine thread any more than it already is
I think the problem is that the term "making it's points back" has a pretty well accepted definition here on warseer, basically "how much does it unit X kill before it dies". Such thinking has always had a stigma attached to it i.e. those who adhere to the principle being limited tactical thinkers.
That stigma is, in my opinion, a very correct one. Basing a unit's value solely on how much it can destroy before going down itself is very simplistic. That's why I have never even used the phrase, let alone the principle behind it. I think everyone on Warseer, and the internet community in general, would be much better off if we retired the phrase "unit X made it's points back" and instead used something far more accurate, such as "unit X is worth it's points". A subtle difference in wording, but far more applicable in regards to tactical thinking.
Last edited by Irondog; 14-08-2010 at 23:41.
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their own turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! we see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude. - Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher
For your information, I never knee-jerk reply to anything. I jump on "make back its points" because I try to help people (not necessarily the poster I'm responding to) become better tacticians.
So trukks are worth their points then? ;-)
Any good suggestions for those units that don't have rides that desperatly need them?
burnas, grotz, flash gitz espcially.
Battlewagonz come to mind, especially for the grotz, but there is a limit to how many of those you can take.
What to do with the small mobz of boyz or nobz that give up their ride to somebody else?
footslogging squad of ten to give cover saves to a squad of twenty behind them?
I never include burnas, grots, and flashgitz. They are not bad units, but the Orks have so many better choices. As far as I am concerned, a unit of boyz with a PK nob (in a trukk or 30 strong on the ground) is the best unit the Orks have. I would max these out for all 6 troop choices before figuring out the rest of your army. If you buy a trukk for your boyz, do not take them out of it to put something else in it. I can see why people displace boyz for say tankbustas or maybe burna boyz, but in my opinion that defeats the purpose of buying the boyz in the first place.