Taktika: Orks

[scarvet]

KFF is there to help the Wagon...but if you have a KFF then your MANz ain't scoring anymore.....

[Tenken]

KFF is there to help the Wagon...but if you have a KFF then your MANz ain't scoring anymore.....

You can have both a big mek and a warboss in the same army. Though scoring on mans is really just icing on the cake. They're so killy already for how cheap they are they don't really need to be scoring.

[scarvet]

You can have both a big mek and a warboss in the same army. Though scoring on mans is really just icing on the cake. They're so killy already for how cheap they are they don't really need to be scoring.

We are talking about using Dok.....so ....yeah.....

Scoring MANz ain't icing on the cake at all, since spaming all 6 troop slot isn't effective for Ork.

[Axel]

surely the KFF is overkill with the cybork bodies?
or do you think the KFF is needed to stop their transport being stripped out from under them?

For the transport.

the only thing they really fear are lascannons and battlecannons.

Battlecannons should be AP3, so no problem here. But many things beside Lascannons are tailored to kill Termis (plasma, vindicators, demolition, ...) and these will also hurt your MANZ. Personally I use a small unit of 3 MANZ in a trukk to create a hard unit that is hard to kill but no real loss (except as a KP) when wiped out.

[madd0ct0r]

Personally I use a small unit of 3 MANZ in a trukk to create a hard unit that is hard to kill but no real loss (except as a KP) when wiped out.

Yay. I only picked up the codex a few days ago so it's nice to know I'm on the right lines.

min unit, plus dok (becuase he has to go somewhere). tough little unit (well, just over 300pts) that can act as a nice little fire magnet.

[GrogDaTyrant]

Boyz: not as effecient as 'eavy armour, but available army wide. Basically slightly more then doubles the chance a boy has of surving a hit, but makes the mob cost 66% more (for a 20man with PK, gets better with smaller squads).

The big reason to go for the Cybork on Boyz, is to make a Cybork themed list. By doing so, you can opt to disregard the KFF meks and will continue to get your 5+ Cybork even against power-weapons/fists in hand to hand. It's also a good way of mitigating some of the damage you can expect to receive from anti-cover weapons like Flamers. Can definitely be worth it, but best if given to the majority/entirety of your boyz.

Warbikers don't need it thanks to exaust cloud. also don't need it as not really worth taking in the first place.

You are incorrect here on both accounts. Adding a 5+ invuln to Warbikes is definitely a solid option. This makes them quite a bit more resilient than they already are in hand to hand (against power-weapons, Dreads, etc), and also gives them the chance to shrug off anti-cover AP4 weapons (like heavy flamers or IG Colossus). As someone who regularly fields Warbikes, I'd consider Grotsnik if he performed close to what the bike-warboss can do.


As far as Warbikes being worth it, they actually are. Most players tend to prefer Deathkoptas for their FA slots simply because they come in the Black Reach box-set and have Twin-Linked Rokkits and Scout. Stormboyz are another popular FA choice, even though they're just jump-pack slugga/choppas (IMO, I find Stormboyz to be the real 'questionable' FA unit). Warbikes are moderately pricey (as normal for bikes), but their only real drawback is lack of weaponry options.

Otherwise most players (foolishly) compare them to Nob bikes in terms of "worth". This concept is a fallacy at best, as the two units serve different roles. Nob bikes are a fast power-house CC beat-down with modest firepower. The 1/2 cost of Warbikes allows you to field twice as much firepower, which means they can provide a much more versatile role on the battlefield. They operate like a fast moving T5 'Ard Boy unit with 2CCWs, a twin-linked 1/2 range big shoota, all with a built-in 4+ cover save. Warbikes are a solid choice and only of questionable worth if applied with little to no tactical forethought. Utilize terrain, pick your fights, and field them in units of 6 to 9 with a PK/Bosspole Nob and they'll serve you well. I field an army consisting of 5 units of warbikes (2 8-man, 3 6-man), and the only issue I've ever had with them is the lack of weapon upgrades besides being required to take Wazzdakka.

[Irondog]

For the transport.
Battlecannons should be AP3, so no problem here.

Doh! Meant to say demolisher cannon. My bad.

[Pooky]

I need a some second opinions on hoarde army composition from those more experienced than me:

What is a good balance between hoarde and supporting units in an ork army?

The style of army I have is a ground pounding shoota army that has supporting elements.

I postulate that if I have too many toyz then there won't be enough boyz to make it a proper hoarde. And if I lack the boyz then concentrated fire from the enemy can deny me having any troops to score with. (And remember the old saying, "Boyz before Toyz!").

Conversely, if I have too many boyz then I won't have enough points left to give the army cover/ support it needs to help it reach the enemy.

I have a funny feeling the right ratio should be about 50% Boyz and 50% everything else/ supporting units.

What do you think? Am I close? Or is there something I'm missing?

[Meriwether]

What do you think?

I think that after seeing that you posted something in size 5, I skimmed your post for something appropriate to quote so that I could admonish you, and let you know that I didn't bother to read the rest of it because BIG TEXT IS ANNOYING.

[Pooky]

I think that after seeing that you posted something in size 5, I skimmed your post for something appropriate to quote so that I could admonish you, and let you know that I didn't bother to read the rest of it because BIG TEXT IS ANNOYING.

Calm down.

That aside, what about the the topic?

[Meriwether]

I'm calm. I was just making a point.

Now, to answer your question, I think that there is no good answer to your question. The Ork codex in particular is very diverse, and you can run a lot of very effective, very different lists.

Personally, I start with a core of 60 boyz on foot and some tankbustaz, then start buying fast stuff until I run out of either FOC or points, and then I buy things like lootaz, kans, burnaboyz, etc.

[Pooky]

Personally, I start with a core of 60 boyz on foot and some tankbustaz, then start buying fast stuff until I run out of either FOC or points, and then I buy things like lootaz, kans, burnaboyz, etc.

The army list I am looking to expand to is HERE

It has roughly a 50/50 mix of Boyz/ Supporting units.

I'm not a fan of Tankbustaz since they can't take transports, have mainly 1 use and are metal.

[Meriwether]

I'm not a fan of Tankbustaz since they can't take transports, have mainly 1 use and are metal.

They can take a warphead for mobility, orks are light on anti-tank, and you can make TBBs with regular boyz and some kitbashing.

[Axel]

I'm not a fan of Tankbustaz since they can't take transports, have mainly 1 use and are metal.

It all depends on what you expect...

I field them in a unit of 5 (without boss) with two hammers (discard the boss, convert one boy to hammer), and give them a looted tank. This puny unit killed more Monoliths and Landraiders then the rest of my army combined (well, mainly because the rest of my army ignores AP14 vehicles, but whatever). Especially if you have first turn their charge range of 21" can be quite intimidating. And even if you go second that looted tank is another tank that shares priority with your trukks and battlewagons.

In a footslogging army, however, they are not quite so usefull. Either their mount stands out as target for all your opponents anti-tank, or they walk on foot and are thus easily shot.

[madd0ct0r]

I think the key is to give your opponent lots of stuff on foot that's easily shot, target saturation and all that.

I'm currently playing about with a Dok horde list. I'll (probably) never field it, as it currently reads like a list of models I don't have.

HQ:
Dok Grotsnik (160)


Elites:

5 Burna boyz with Cybork. = 100 (Dok goes here)

10 Kommandos with Cybork
plus Nob, PK and bosspole = 190


Fast Attack:

10 Stormboyz + Cybork
+ Nob, PK and bosspole = 210

3x Deffkoptas with cybork
(one blank, one with KMB and one with buzzsaw =150
(mixed to allow wound allocation shuffle)

Troops:
min Grots = 40

10 boyz with cybork
+nob, PK = 145

total = 995
5 PK's, 6 units, 47 wounds with a 5+inv


if it weren't for the theme, I'd leave the armour off the boyz in return for bodies
that said, do I really need all these PKs?

[Axel]

I am quite sure that cybork is only allowed for the unit that Dok Grotznik joined, not for any unit in his army.

[GrogDaTyrant]

I am quite sure that cybork is only allowed for the unit that Dok Grotznik joined, not for any unit in his army.

Nope, you're quite incorrect. Grotsnik allows any unit in the army to have Cybork at 5 pts a model.



Pooky: Focus on infantry. The ground-pounder Shoota list works well, especially if you run KFF Meks and/or a Grot screen speed-bump to protect against CC unit rushes. As far as peercentage of your army into what... don't bother analyzing it that way. Focus more on model count. If you're going all-out footslog, then plan on 90+ shootas. At least 3 mobs will work fine. Tack on a 4th if you want, depending upon what else you feel like throwing in there. You can also run a competent Dread-Bash with shootas. 3 units of Shootas, a pile of Grots for charge-taking, 2 dreads, and 9 kanz is a solid build. From there, add in whatever you think you can get away with.

As far as things like Tankbustas go (or Burnas for that matter), they require transports. Plain as that. They don't have access to them, so plan on either burning a heavy support (preferably on a Battlewagon), or dragooning a trukk from somewhere else (say a 12 man mob of boyz destined to be an 'objective-sitter'. As far as Weirdboyz/Warpheads go... I don't recommend them unless you want something that's just going to randomly do something moderately interesting if your opponent allows it (more accurately, provided they don't have Librarians, Farseers, Synapse, etc).

Ork support units are good, but Shootas are pound for pound the highest level of damage output in the army for their cost. You will STILL need PKs and Deathrollas for tanks however, unless you take 5 throw-away Tankbustas with 2 Tankhammers in a trukk and hurl them at the enemy as a sacrificial can-opener.

[Axel]

Nope, you're quite incorrect. Grotsnik allows any unit in the army to have Cybork at 5 pts a model.

Indeed?
Most certainly not in the German version of the rules, unless it was FAQed somewhere. There they state pretty clearly that he allows the unit he joined to buy the upgrade - in the army entry, not on the page covering him.

Thats an interesting difference.

[Meriwether]

Certainly not the case in the English codex.

Indeed, you choose what unit he joins *at the beginning of the game*, and not during army creation anyway...

[Axel]

Well, I should start to read the German FAQ. Obviously that mistake was NOT fixed in the English one because it only appeared in the translation. You are right, any unit may be upgraded. Seems that I will have to field that crazy Dok soon, and then its cybot time for my bikes and koptaz...