Taktika: Orks

[Zaeon]

I like underdog units and flashgits can fit with pretty much any clan. I might make a big ten boy squad to have fun with every once in a while

[GrogDaTyrant]

I like underdog units and flashgits can fit with pretty much any clan. I might make a big ten boy squad to have fun with every once in a while

Well, yes and no. They fit with any clan now because all the clans are nothing more than color schemes. If you go by fluff and background, they fit Bad Moons more than any other, and don't fit well with Goffs or Snakebites. Evil Suns works provided you spend that 2nd Heavy Slot on them for a Battlewagon.

[Zaeon]

clans are more a state of mind anyway. I can see any clan hiring them anyway.

[Biff Gunhed]

I'm thinking of getting into Orks after years out of the game. Can you Ork players with know-wots please take a look over my Deathskulls list? http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264297

I started with a 1500pt list but have cut it down to 1000pt first to get a feel of the army before committing to a larger army. Specifically I'm wondering if the Battlewagon full of Shootaboyz and the Warboss is a good idea or not.

[Irondog]

I like the list, Biff. The Battlewagon full of Shoota Boyz isn't bad, but I've found that 'Ard Boyz w/ Choppas make for better Battlewagon crew. If you can scrounge the points from somehwere, I highly recommend it. They're going to be going balls out into the enemy, so they won't be shooting much anyway. The extra attack in close combat, combined with a 4+ save, makes the unit a real monster.

In fact, I often run the unit by itself in the Battlewagon, placing the Boss elsewhere to boost mobs that need his help more (like Trukk mobs). Also, a Big Mek with a Force Field is almost a must when you're rolling with vehicles. It's pretty easy to get side shots on a Battlewagon, and Trukks have the armor of a beer can. They need some help keeping the big gunz off them.

I know that's about 150 points for those upgrades. I'd consider dropping one of the Trukk mobs to get the points. It'll make the remaining two vehicle loads of Boyz that much more effective.

[Aulbath]

Just got my first batch of Orks (after totally humiliating my gaming buddy with Space Wolves - I wanted something more fun to both paint and play), planning on doing a Kan-Wall list with decent amounts of foot-slogging boyz (currently I am going for 60 Boyz, 15 gretchins in 1500 pts)

Now, my "enemy" is gearing up towards putting the hurt on said boyz... he just invested in Dark Reapers and a War Walker trio, all of them with Starcannons (not sure about the name, but he described it as a laser-gatling). What would you recommend from the orky arsenal to get rid of them by turn 1 or turn 2. Kans are an obvious choice, I am going to field 9 of them, all with Grotzookas - however, I like a bit of diversity too. So I was thinking of trying out Deffkoptas - from what I understand they can basically blitz over the entire battlefield and then bomb or buzz-saw away for quite a bit of damage (resulting in a almost certain shotdown in the next shooting phase of my enemy).

My mate is especially fond of his Dark Reapers... old griefer that I am, I would love nothing more to have something that cripples them by turn 1. Same goes for the Warwalkers (however, I am confident those Kanz will make them suffer).

Any suggestions?

[Kuolema]

Just got my first batch of Orks (after totally humiliating my gaming buddy with Space Wolves - I wanted something more fun to both paint and play), planning on doing a Kan-Wall list with decent amounts of foot-slogging boyz (currently I am going for 60 Boyz, 15 gretchins in 1500 pts)

Now, my "enemy" is gearing up towards putting the hurt on said boyz... he just invested in Dark Reapers and a War Walker trio, all of them with Starcannons (not sure about the name, but he described it as a laser-gatling). What would you recommend from the orky arsenal to get rid of them by turn 1 or turn 2. Kans are an obvious choice, I am going to field 9 of them, all with Grotzookas - however, I like a bit of diversity too. So I was thinking of trying out Deffkoptas - from what I understand they can basically blitz over the entire battlefield and then bomb or buzz-saw away for quite a bit of damage (resulting in a almost certain shotdown in the next shooting phase of my enemy).

My mate is especially fond of his Dark Reapers... old griefer that I am, I would love nothing more to have something that cripples them by turn 1. Same goes for the Warwalkers (however, I am confident those Kanz will make them suffer).

Any suggestions?

Lootas, good number of shots, decent str and long range wrecks war walkers easy. Enough shots an even dark reapers go down as well, just keep your lootas in cover for when they return fire.

[Aulbath]

Oh, yeah... I think I should have posted the full list:

2x Big Meks with KFF
2x 12 Lootas
3x20 Shoota Boyz, 2x Big Shoota, Nob with PK+BP
15x Gretchins
9x Kanz with Grotzookas

Lootas are seriously great... when you roll enough hits that actually wound & kill. Last game my Eldar-friend made a grave mistake by putting up his Guardian squad into my line of sight... on first turn, 7 guardians got killed by Deffgun fire. The battle resulted in him being tabled. Cause once he managed the Loota-threat, my boyz were all over him - clobbering him to death - his one chance of saving the game (bladestorm from Dire Avengers) failed horribly (he killed one(!) Ork out of 18 or something shots).

I was thinking that Deff Koptas might be a certain way to get rid of his Infantry Killers very early on (building up pressure from both Lootas in the back and Koptas on a rampage in his deployment area - all the while my boyz keep running towards him and assault-gunning him down in the process). Or should I consider Stormboyz?

[Gensuke626]

Most of the time I find lootaz to be highly overrated. Against infantry and AV 10 vehicles, I'd say that Lootaz are better than Tankbustaz, AV 11 Lootaz and Bustaz are equal, and AV 12+ are when tankbustaz outshine lootaz (in my oppinion of course).

Most of the reason is because Tankbustaz are a mobile element in your army, while lootaz are vulnerable to backfield disruption. On top of that, a cunning Warboss can hit multiple tanks with Tankbusta boyz with the cunning use of Bomm Squigz.

[MJRyder]

Hey everyone, been doing my best to read over as much of this thread as I can. I haven't spotted it yet, so I'll ask it anyway - what's with all the Wazdakka hate? I've seen a number of posts across the forum suggesting the warbiker special character is a bit rubbish so was wondering why this was the general consensus (if it is at all).

I'm currently in the process of building a fairly 'balanced' ork army using the AoBR set combined with the Megaforce (I got the megaforce for a very good discount). I was considering making Wazdakka in order to make the x9 bikes troops while also giving me a hard hitting hq. If anyone has any suggestions as to where to go after I get the obvious Mek+ KFF, feel free to offer up advice Obviously getting some Kanz is on the agenda.

Many thanks.

[Aulbath]

@Gensuke626: Thanks for putting some attention on Tankbustaz - dunno why, but I somehow overlooked them... depending on how mech-heavy his list is going to be, I will consider them (though it seems he is gearing for infantry with light mech support right now... serpents, jetbikes, warwalkers).

What is the general opinion about mixing some slugga boyz in a shoota boyz mob for visual variety? Let's say, I am doing a 20 boyz strong mob of shootas, but only take 15 boyz with the correct WYSIWG armament, and add 5 Bleack Reach boyz for variety... would you accept this (paint job will make it obvious where they belong to)?

In Apocalypse games with the Green Tide it seems there are no differences between shooty or smashy orkz... but in regular 40K it seems it does make a difference.

[Kuolema]

Most of the time I find lootaz to be highly overrated. Against infantry and AV 10 vehicles, I'd say that Lootaz are better than Tankbustaz, AV 11 Lootaz and Bustaz are equal, and AV 12+ are when tankbustaz outshine lootaz (in my oppinion of course).

Most of the reason is because Tankbustaz are a mobile element in your army, while lootaz are vulnerable to backfield disruption. On top of that, a cunning Warboss can hit multiple tanks with Tankbusta boyz with the cunning use of Bomm Squigz.

Lootahs have the advantages of longer range and can still threaten infantry when all tanks are killed or hiding.

[Irondog]

Lootahs have the advantages of longer range and can still threaten infantry when all tanks are killed or hiding.

Very true. But Lootas have to sit tight if you want them to be able to shoot, which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of threats. Deepstrikers, Outflankers, and even just plain ol' fast stuff can put the pressure on the Lootas. Hell, even if they're sitting in good cover, they'll often take enough fire to make them a non-issue in a couple of turns.

Tankbustas, on the other hand, are able to move along with the rest of Da Boyz and still be effective. They'll get protection from the Boyz around them and can even 'steal' a ride if they need to.

Having said all that, I think both choices are a bit expensive for what they do in a game. They can lay down the pain in an ideal environment, but hey're pretty steep (for Orks) in point cost per model, and their armor save and leadership both suck. A few casualties and they're likely to head for the hills

[Aulbath]

@Irondog: So, what alternatives would you suggest for Lootas / Bustas?

[space-ork]

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH H !!...... sorry couldn't resist

[Meriwether]

Try to resist in the future. Spamming is against forum rules.

[Gensuke626]

Lootahs have the advantages of longer range and can still threaten infantry when all tanks are killed or hiding.

As Irondog stated, Lootaz are highly vulnerable being a static unit in a mostly mobile army.

That said, If you really need another Anti-Infantry unit in your ork army, I'd love to see what your build is. Practically everything in my typical build is Anti-Infantry, from the Shoota Boyz to the Grotzookaz, to the Meganobz in a trukk. What I lack is Anti-Tank and when my two choices are Lootaz, who are precieved as a bigger threat than they really are, and Tankbustaz, who are precieved as a smaller threat than they really are, then I think I know who gets the gold star.

Very true. But Lootas have to sit tight if you want them to be able to shoot, which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of threats. Deepstrikers, Outflankers, and even just plain ol' fast stuff can put the pressure on the Lootas. Hell, even if they're sitting in good cover, they'll often take enough fire to make them a non-issue in a couple of turns.

Tankbustas, on the other hand, are able to move along with the rest of Da Boyz and still be effective. They'll get protection from the Boyz around them and can even 'steal' a ride if they need to.

Having said all that, I think both choices are a bit expensive for what they do in a game. They can lay down the pain in an ideal environment, but hey're pretty steep (for Orks) in point cost per model, and their armor save and leadership both suck. A few casualties and they're likely to head for the hills

I agree with that mostly...paying marine prices for an Ork boy is a bit ridiculous... but for what they have it's not too bad...an Ork boy with a Rokkit Launcha is actually more expensive than a single Tank Busta Boy...and they lack the Tank Busta Bomms...Thank Gork for the Glory Hogs rule or the TB Boyz would probably cost twice as much.

That said, I find that hiding the Tank Busta Boyz near the Killa Kanz is enough to make sure they catch and Kill atleast one enemy tank.

@Irondog: So, what alternatives would you suggest for Lootas / Bustas?

There is no real Alternative to a Loota. I'll admit that much...No other unit in the game can lay down a torrent of fire like a full mob of lootaz who roll up max shots.

Tank Bustas, on the other hand, can technically be replaced with any unit capable of carrying a Rokkit...so Trukkz, Boyz, Nobz, Wagons, and more can all pull ranged AT Duty...What Tankbustaz bring to the field is a dedicated AT unit, allowing your other units to focus on shooting up what they need to. Shoota Boyz can take rokkitz...but it'd be better to shoot up that Rhino with Rokkitz first and unload the Shoota boyz at the marines who pop out afterwards. That's where the Tankbusta Boyz really shine.

But to find the alternatives, we need to look at what you're bringing.

Let's see...Grotzooka Kan-Wall with 60 Shoota boyz? Slogging list without stuff in the backfield, and you've no heavy slots left...If you absolutely, Positively must take ranged AT in this list, might I suggest dropping the Lootaz in favor of putting Deff Dreads into the last two troop slots. That would allow you to either swap the grotzookaz on one mob of Kanz for Rokkitz while the dreads take skorchaz, Or the Dreads can take the Rokkitz, or the Dreads can take rokkitz and a mob of kanz can take Rokkits. It really depends on what you need. Best part about taking dreads is that they'll keep up with the kanz AND also benefit from the KFF.

[Aulbath]

Hey Gensuke,

thanks for the write-up.
I really like your last point - taking two more Dreads sounds great. Right now I am not THAT worried about my enemy - since he has very little Tanks going on. However, once those Falcons or Nightspinners start taking to the skies I'd rather be prepared. Adding Dreadz and skipping some Loota-Boyz sounds fluffy enough (fitting the overall theme of Big Mek horde) - Tankbustas feel more like something I'd put in a Blood Axes list or something themed around Storm Boyz and Military. And if I need more I could still swap a big shoota or two for a Rocket Launcher.

Right now though, I believe a bunch of Lootas should be sufficient against his Dark Reapers, Rangers and even the charging mob of Banshees and the occasional Warwalker/Wraithlord. I am a bit worried about his Jetbikes now, after reading about Loota-weaknesses in Irondog's post.

Needz moar boyz.

[blurrymadness]

I find lootas do decent, but unfortunately are much better served in a bunker-battlewagon. Enemies with any decent ranged shooting seem to down them quickly.

I use my wagons for double duty in this role, depending how badly I need boyz in the enemy lines. Their firepower is amazing, but their fragility is something often overlooked by those who take 'em. They're good for the points, but they require a distraction or an AV shield.

[Irondog]

@Irondog: So, what alternatives would you suggest for Lootas / Bustas?

Asked....

Needz moar boyz.

... and answered.

In all seriousness, there isn't much in the game that a big mob o' Boyz with a PK Nob can't tackle. If they can't kill it, they at least tarpit the thing until the end of the game. Although since it sounds like you're going for a Big Mek theme, massed boyz mobs may not be your thing.

In my opinion, the Killa Kan wall backed up by boz is really the 'anvil' of the Ork army. It's fairly slow moving, and attracts a horrendous amount of firepower. No opponent wants to see that mess hit his lines, hence they often tend to pour a lot of firepower into it. Luckily, with the KFF Mek around, they can usually take the hits.

What you really need to counter the tricky stuff in an enemy's army is mobility and some tricky stuff of your own. Outflanking Kommandos and Deff Koptas can take out some of his sneaky stuff on the flanks of his army. They may not kill much in the actual game, but the threat of what they could do will often make your opponent stay away from the edges of the board, which is where you want him to be so your other stuff can smash him flat.

For mobility, I run with a Battlewagon full of 'Ard Boyz and a couple of Trukks with some other nastiness. These start the game near the KFF Mek for first turn cover, then zoom out where they need to go and start mixing it up. Mobility is key in an Ork army, otherwise your playing on your opponents terms. If he knows he can sit back and just outshoot you for several turns, that's what he'll do. He knows how nasty Lootas are. They're a threat from the very beginning, not just from turn 2-3 when the rest of the army reaches him. You've just made his target priority very easy.

The trick is to make your opponent have no idea what to shoot. I run a pretty unorthodox Ork army. By not having anything that is obviously more deadly than anything else, I make my opponent really have to think about what he shoots at. It also makes each of my individual units less important in the grand scheme of things. I can lose units and still be able to accomplish my goals. Can a guy who plays Nob Bikers say the same? If you take out the lynchpin unit in an army, the guy is often screwed to the point where he can't recover.

That's part of the reason I don't use Lootas any longer. They were 225 points that always got either wasted or chased off the board early in the game. I figured "Why should I just hand those points to my opponent, when I can make him work for it?" Now, I may still lose a unit on turn 1, but rarely is it the same unit in every game.

I also don't field Lootas any longer because they were just too effective the first few times I used them. When a unit of Dire Avengers in cover evaporates in one round of shooting and the guy is near tears, you just end up feeling dirty afterward. I want my opponents to at least think they have a chance. hehehehe