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Thread: Chaos

  1. #1

    Chaos

    Well, I've been thinking a bit about Chaos. I don't like how it has been presented in the fluff as it's been presented recently. I know GW have tried to turn it round a bit, but it's still basically "Chaos is evil, Chaotics are evil, purge the unclean" stuff.

    So.. what I think is..

    Chaos is, generally speaking, the manifestation of the intangible. Emotions, thoughts, etc. Collectively, Chaos is the Warp. Chaos is within everything that experiences emotions, whether they be fear, love, hatred, agony or whatever.

    Everyone, from the lowliest Guardsman to the mightiest of Space Marines, is inherently suffused with Chaos energy. It is the basis of life and cannot be denied. Without Chaos, there would be perfect order - no emotions, no feelings, no hatred, no passion, just existence.

    Then we have the 4 major Chaos Gods, the roughly divided personifications of these collected energies (though there are many places where they overlap, and many smaller entities that come and go as certain emotions become particularly strong). Note that I consider Chaos Undivided to be the total of all these entities, rather than a specific entity itself.

    Below those, we have Greater and Lesser Daemons. Although we only see combat daemons, I consider Daemons to be smaller, more localised manifestations of these energies and thus there would be daemons interested not in ripping people limb from limb, but also helpful daemons like Faeries, Djinn, creatures to lead lost travellers back home, etc. We don't hear about these in the fluff for the same reason we don't hear about Eldar prostitutes - they have no place on the battlefield, which is what 99% of the fluff talks about.

    So, what happens when someone "falls" to Chaos? Well, they don't actually fall to Chaos. Chaos is the instrument of their destruction, but the path was their own creation. Chaos contains great power, and the lure of power inevitably attracts the greedy, the craven and the tyrannic. The whisper of daemons is that of our own thoughts given shape in the Warp, compelling us and offering the power of Chaos which the evil then craft into their own designs.

    In short, those the Imperium think are "tainted" by Chaos are merely the evil people who use Chaos as an instrument. The blessings of Dark gods occur when the energies from certain emotions are so strong that they manifest in this material plane. Daemonhood occurs when an individual becomes so enveloped in Chaos that he transcends reality to become Chaos, a collection of emotions and thoughts strong enough to maintain a shape in the material plane.

    This is not just something that occurs for the evil. Saints are those who experience exactly the same thing as a Daemon Prince, except from experiencing different emotions and therefore becoming a different type of daemon, but the principle is the same.

    The Imperium fears Chaos. Though every last one of its living subjects is inherently Chaotic, they all have the fallacy of man, to try to gain power, to abuse others. It is those whose ambition is strong enough to make them aware of the Chaos within them that pose the threat, and when such ambition is married to the increased Chaos energy they embrace they become even more dangerous. Yet many use Chaos without knowing it, their very ignorance a shield against corruption and the evil within them.

    It is therefore possible to embrace Chaos without harm if one's intentions are right. However, due to the nature of humans, this is almost impossible to do consciously without being overcome by the lust for power. There are still many, many examples of this happening - people in desperate situations suddenly endowed with power they never had, not knowing that they had temporarily become a conduit for the Warp.

    ...

    Anyway, I'm not really sure what the point of all that was, and I have no idea how much of it is contradictory to existing fluff. Either way, I thought I'd type it up and throw it to the fluff sharks out there.. hmm, fluff sharks.. what a disturbing thought. Discuss!

  2. #2
    Commander Brusilov's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Amazing the number of threads on the nature of Chaos that have crept into this forum as of late. Good discussion all around...

    Firstly, Chaos is NOT the warp. The warp is a neutral medium, in which all of our emotions are reflected and over time given form into entities. Personally I believe there are "areas" (if any geographic idea can be applied to such a dimension) where Chaos dominates, thus become the Realms of Chaos, places where no emotion in particular dominates and the warp remains neutral, and places where the emotions that feed the Emperor dominates, which I would call the Realms of Law.

    However you are perfectly right when you point out that Chaos is inherent in every living sentient being, and thus cannot be destroyed in the way the Imperium thinks it can. It's like an hydra, kill all the current worshippers and you'd have just as many in a few decades.

    On the matter of non-Chaos warp entities, the WH world have such faeries and elemental beings, they also probably exist in 40k. Personally I've taken the idea a step further. If the Emperor is to become a warp power (thanks to the Star Child) and if certain emotions feed him (besides the thousands of psykers sacrificed to the Golden Throne every day), then he is bound to have servants to his cause in the form of warp entities, created from these emotions. Thus the theory of the Emperor's daemons was born...

    Personally I disagree with your idea that those who fall to Chaos are the greedy, the power hungry and the ambitious. They are among those who have heeded the call of Chaos, but the idealists are just as numerous if not more. And this is part of the whole point of Chaos (as made elsewhere), you want this power offered at first freely to do good, but over time as you gain more power and the price to get it becomes higher, your ideals become twisted, you lose sight of your true objectives and in the end when you have embraced Chaos fully, your ideals are but parodies of what they once were. Just think of the Space Marines who turned traitor during the Heresy, most of them (not all) had high ideals as to how mankind should be ruled, Horus himself thought he would be better to lead mankind into a better future, and look at what they've become.

    There is a way to use the Chaos within yourself without being consumed by it, and it is to know the nature of Chaos firsthand, to understand that eventually this entropy is sterile, that pure Chaos is as worthless as pure Law and that a careful combination of both is required (as you pointed out). Those people are the Illuminati (old fluff here) and they have become enlightened because they were possessed by a daemon (the most horrifying but also the most intimate experience of Chaos) and they managed to break free.
    'There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people.' Commissar-General Brusilov

    ‘What are we? Your scholars claim we exist only to tempt you, yet in a very real way we are you. We are your own desires, your own fears, your own ambitions and rages, given form (if not flesh). How can you fight us? Only by fighting your own Humanity, and why would you want to do that? You would be fighting against life itself. For what is Chaos but life?’
    Tzaal, momentarily lucid Horror

  3. #3
    Librarian wilting_laughter's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    If daemons of the Emperor exist, then can it not be said that daemonic gifts of the emperor exists also?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hideous Loon on IRC
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  4. #4

    Re: Chaos

    Possibly. One could consider the Imperial Saints to be gifted by the Emperor in some way. These are of course non-physical influences, but could be attirubted to divine influence all the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinners
    Can we not have discussions about communism? Cheers.

  5. #5
    Librarian wilting_laughter's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    I suppose we just have to point to witch hunters codex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hideous Loon on IRC
    I'm not insecure, or am I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Taron on IRC
    What's so special about Amy Lee? Does she look particularly good on toast?

  6. #6

    Re: Chaos

    Brusilov - point taken about the Warp, perhaps I didn't think that one through enough.

    Also, agreed that it's not just the evil who are attracted to Chaos - perhaps a son makes it his quest to search for a lost father, and unable to find him on his own begs for help from any who may be listening, and only when he finds his father does he see the blood trailing in his own footsteps..

    But at the end of the day, Chaos merely empowers these people to do as they would like to. It doesn't force their idealisms into evil, but it opens up paths they did not see or could not tread before, and inevitably due to the weakness of human nature, they stray into these paths.

    So at the end of the day, noone who uses chaos is immune to its corruption, but there are (very) few who can resist it until their deaths.

    Incidently, I consider wargear like the Rosarius the equivalent of the Emperor's Daemonic Gifts - an item that shields through faith rather than any physical force.

  7. #7
    Chaplain Briareos's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodiedSword
    So at the end of the day, noone who uses chaos is immune to its corruption, but there are (very) few who can resist it until their deaths.
    Sensei are immune to the corruption of Chaos, as they represent the balanced aspect of the Warp (which seems to have been the natural state of the warp before higher-sentient life emerged).

    In a way, the Illuminati could be considered immune as well but that is more open to debate.

  8. #8
    Commander Brusilov's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    The Sensei are immune to the predations of the warp (although IIRC they can turn to Chaos, weren't those called Grey Sensei?) because they share the immunity with their ancestor, the Emperor (I am of the mind that Sensei are still born, because while sterile, the Sensei gene could jump many generations before manifesting itself). As to where this comes from, for the Emperor I believe it is a result of the Many Mind that compose his being, as for the Sensei...

    The Illuminati however are not immune to Chaos, they are one with it, in the sense that they have accepted this part of themselves and it exists in harmony with the rest.
    To draw from Briareos' comparison, if Sensei are immune because they represent the neutral and balanced warp before the rise of sentient beings, Illuminati are immune because they have balanced the two opposites that exists within every sentient beings (Chaos and Low or whatever else you please).

    And yes, it could be that the Emperor would bestow gifts upon a chosen few, but as mentioned this would probably not be something physically visible. Sebastian Thor could be one of such beings gifted by the Emperor.
    You also have to remember that since the Emperor has not yet risen to consciousness his ability to act is very limited.
    Back in the day of RoC, the Sensei could tread a path that was in some ways akin to that of the Chaos Champions, ending in something akin to ascension to daemonhood, albeit different (I think being visited by the Star Child himself or somesuch).

    And the Rosarius is a technological artefact, the mere fact that it protected Grog Vandire, someone who might have a twisted faith in the Emperor but the Emperor would not recognise as one of his own, proves it
    'There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people.' Commissar-General Brusilov

    ‘What are we? Your scholars claim we exist only to tempt you, yet in a very real way we are you. We are your own desires, your own fears, your own ambitions and rages, given form (if not flesh). How can you fight us? Only by fighting your own Humanity, and why would you want to do that? You would be fighting against life itself. For what is Chaos but life?’
    Tzaal, momentarily lucid Horror

  9. #9
    Veteran Sergeant vexa's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Well about "daemonic" gifts of the Emperor, did´t He give Sanguinius his wings as a gift, to Leman he gave fangs. Well this makes now 2 daemonically gifted guys. Kind of off-topic but anyway
    Kebab is probably the best food in the world.

  10. #10

    Re: Chaos

    Gleh. No. At that time, the Emperor was a man. He wasn't a warp power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinners
    Can we not have discussions about communism? Cheers.

  11. #11
    Chaplain Briareos's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    The mutations of Sanguinus, Russ and other primarch were either the result of the experimental process used in their creation, or the result of their exposure to the warp during their abduction.

    I personnally lean toward the second hypothesis.

  12. #12
    Commander Brusilov's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    We don't know what went into the cocktail that made the Primarchs, so it could be that it's a side-effect of whatever DNA was used (beside that of the Emperor), but it's indeed more likely that it was caused by the time the Primarchs spent in the warp while in transit to their new home world.
    'There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people.' Commissar-General Brusilov

    ‘What are we? Your scholars claim we exist only to tempt you, yet in a very real way we are you. We are your own desires, your own fears, your own ambitions and rages, given form (if not flesh). How can you fight us? Only by fighting your own Humanity, and why would you want to do that? You would be fighting against life itself. For what is Chaos but life?’
    Tzaal, momentarily lucid Horror

  13. #13
    Banned EVIL INC's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    The faith abilities and so forth of armies such as black templers and sisters can easily be reasoned as "gifts". Then again, there are such things as the spirit of the machine which could also fit. Then again, what about Saint Sabbot or the constant tales of other saints and such?
    There is also that the "evil" chaos gods are on the "lookout" for the emporer. The spirit of the emporer is supposed to be "hiding" in the warp by spreading itself so thin that it eludes detection. Without a solid "base" in the warp, perhaps he is unable to take as direct a hand in worldly events as the other chaos gods.

    My belief one of two things
    1. A good portion of the reasons the primarchs were as powerfull and specialized as they were is because of the warp influance in thier abductions.
    2. The warp made thier particuler abilities and specialties physical and they are just reflections of who they are.

  14. #14

    Re: Chaos

    The warp i think is were the gates thousands of times and worlds exists because Sigmar was a primarch and he was one of the lost in the warp when they were first made and i think the old ones in warhammer were marines who were stuck there and when the horus heresy became whole it blew a chos gate open in every dimension in the warp thus allowing their reatreat from the old world and would also explain the dissaperance of sigmar at around about the same time.

  15. #15
    Chapter Master MvS's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    NECROMANCY!!

    This thread is two years old!

    The horror...


  16. #16
    Chapter Master Drasanil's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by MvS View Post
    NECROMANCY!!

    This thread is two years old!

    The horror...


    Strange that you should bring up the subject necromancy in your six hundreth and sixty sixth post MvS...
    Quote Originally Posted by G-u-n-l-i-n-e-t-a-s-t-ic, stupid word filter
    And things that require tactics are BAD. The less tactics involved, the better, and it means less things can go wrong.

  17. #17
    Chapter Master Lastie's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasanil View Post
    Strange that you should bring up the subject necromancy in your six hundreth and sixty sixth post MvS...
    Guess the Grey Knights will be paying him a visit.

    Thread Necromancy or not; it's good to be reminded of the awesome past discussions held in this forum on the nature of Chaos, good, evil, Law, and those cheesy things on sticks (OK, kidding about the sticks). Today, when it seems GW fluff is dumbing down to the point of actually being painful to read (the Horus Heresy Visions series, although I haven't read any of the actual novels yet), it's good to know this place exists. Makes me want to read the Realms of Chaos books again.
    "It is the nature of men to create monsters, and it is the nature of monsters to destroy their makers"

  18. #18
    Chapter Master MvS's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Lastie View Post
    Guess the Grey Knights will be paying him a visit.
    Paying me a visit...??

    I'm a founding member!




  19. #19
    Chapter Master jhon's Avatar
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    Re: Chaos

    the emperor is stuck !!! my people !!! we should unpluck the golden toilet at once , so that the emperor can be free!!!! hehehe
    well, since the emperor is the protecter , he is the need people to protect and he is the one need people bring him food . not to mention he eat people like the big four . therefore if choas is evil than the emperor is 'eviler'
    All we are is dog in the sea ..... lalalala

  20. #20

    Re: Chaos

    A point on Chaos & Evil: I always thought that Chaos - that is, the Dark Gods specifically - was not inherently evil, it was merely extreme. Slaanesh is a good example; pleasure is a good thing... but those who serve the devotion to pleasure personified become unhealthily wrapped up in it. Addicted. Their morals go down the drain with their normality and sanity as they are driven to seek more and more debased and unhealthy practices to satisfy their lust for sensation. Or Khorne: Martial skill, respecting the strong, honor in the struggle, righteous anger... these things are not bad, but when taken to the extreme of devoting yourself solely to rage, battle, and slaughter...

    Therein lies the insidiousness of Chaos: it seems reasonable at first, but the farther down you slide the more extreme - and, eventually, evil - it becomes.
    Quote Originally Posted by VanHel View Post
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