[1.5k MechTau]Need help with the building.

[A neutral shade of black.]

Hello, Portent (oops - I mean, Warseer )!

After a string of bitter losses, I feel let down by my Tau (for the fourth time in three and a bit years, but heh). Since I've put quite a bunch of cash in the Tau force I have so far (it used to be 2k static, then I sold half of it and bought some extras, and I'm eventually going to buy what I need to put it back up to 1.5k, then 2k - that's about 350€ so far, and another 120€ at least to go), I've decided to force myself to stick with it and ask for help rewriting my army list:

HQ Shas'el - fusion blaster, missile pod and multi-tracker.
(81)

Elite Shas'ui - same kit.
(61)

Elite Ditto.
(61)

Troop 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troop Ditto.
(225)

Support Broadside - twin-linked railguns, smart missile system and multi-tracker.
(75)

Support Ditto.
(75)

Support Railhead - burst cannons, decoy launchers and multi-tracker.
(165)

Total 998 points.

That being the list I currently use, shown only so you can see what I normally play - this thread is an attempt at rebuilding a whole new list, from scratch.

As far as what I'm trying to go for is concerned, it's simple: I've had enough with losing, so I'm going for the "beardiest" possible MechTau list (heh, I said "beard" and Tau in the same sentence) in 1.5k format. I suppose it would run along the lines of 2 * 'el + 2 * unit of 2 CS + unit of 6 SS (four don't seem to do enough damage before they die), minimal FW units and maybe some Kroot, and as many Hammerheads as can possibly be packed in. The problem is, after that, I've no clue what the details are to be. I also need to have a 1k list following that template, which I'll work out later on.

I know what the army will look like in general, but I have no idea what the details are going to be, and how to fine-tune things, hence my asking for help. As far as the Crisis suits are concerned, squads of two suits are the way to go. That would give me the following:
Helios team - 2 * Shas'ui; TLPR + TL/TLPR + ?.
Deathrain team - 2 * Shas'ui; TLMP + TL/TLMP + ?

I also have a huge problem with transports - I always (and I mean it) unload either too early, or too late (i.e. not at all). I just can't seem to get the right moment, which is why while my original 1.5k list had three Fish units, I'm thinking of taking only two - but I feel that's not enough. A short list of the questions I'm asking myself:

- HQ section: what, how many and equipped how?
- Elite section: how many stealth suits? What to give the second member of each of the Crisis squads?
- Troop: is only twenty four fire warriors too little infantry? How am I going to cope with opposite troops if I have so little anti-infatry firepower myself, especially since they seem to always die/be tied up in CC by turn two?
- Heavy Support: target lock and 170 points, or no target lock and 165 points (I field them RG + BCs + DL + MT)? SMS or BCs?

Of course, some of this will probably be moot when (if?) they bring out Codex: Tau Empires (or whatever they're deciding to name it) and its new race of winged aliens, but this is doing with what he have and dealing with the now.

[Iron_Wolves]

to have a mobile TAU list you need to be mobile, with 2 broadsides you are not mobile.

Then for the crisis suits add plasma rifle not fusion blaster, with fusion blaster you have to get tooo close for it to be effective. Minus the broadsides add another hammerhead. If you field this you will have a beardy list

[Petronivs]

What might be helpful to know is: what's giving you trouble? Are you playing in tournaments with all sorts of opponents, or just a local gaming group with a more limited selection of enemies? Knowing what causes you the most trouble would help to tweak your list the right way, although the Tau list is fairly standard when it comes to maximizing efficiency.

Iron Wolves' comments are right-on, and for a 1500 point list, 3 railgun-toting hammerheads would be pretty effective, I think. You could upgrade your crisis suits (commander and team leaders) to TL PR, MP and HW MT. Depending on how you judge such things, it usually comes out well on the points-per-marines-killed efficiency scores. I'm considering swapping a commander's (or both?) missile pod with a fusion blaster in my list to dissuade things from rushing my line as much....not sure how well it'll work though, so I'd stick with the missile pod for now.

Depending on how much you want to beef things up (2 shas'els? 2 2-suit crisis teams, a 6 man stealth team and 3 railheads?) you could be looking at about 350 left for troops. At that point, you might want a 10 man FW squad and a bunch of kroot. This army would be pretty fragile, but would have a good deal of firepower and mobility, with two decent-sized kroot squads for infiltration.

[A neutral shade of black.]

What might be helpful to know is: what's giving you trouble? Are you playing in tournaments with all sorts of opponents, or just a local gaming group with a more limited selection of enemies? Knowing what causes you the most trouble would help to tweak your list the right way, although the Tau list is fairly standard when it comes to maximizing efficiency.

Iron Wolves' comments are right-on, and for a 1500 point list, 3 railgun-toting hammerheads would be pretty effective, I think. You could upgrade your crisis suits (commander and team leaders) to TL PR, MP and HW MT. Depending on how you judge such things, it usually comes out well on the points-per-marines-killed efficiency scores. I'm considering swapping a commander's (or both?) missile pod with a fusion blaster in my list to dissuade things from rushing my line as much....not sure how well it'll work though, so I'd stick with the missile pod for now.

Depending on how much you want to beef things up (2 shas'els? 2 2-suit crisis teams, a 6 man stealth team and 3 railheads?) you could be looking at about 350 left for troops. At that point, you might want a 10 man FW squad and a bunch of kroot. This army would be pretty fragile, but would have a good deal of firepower and mobility, with two decent-sized kroot squads for infiltration.

The list was only an outline, taken from what I've observed most players call "evil Mech," and as such wasn't strictly to be observed. On second thought, I could well do with a single 'el - more than five Crisis suits aren't needed - or even the two Helios 6 'el/one DR squad I suggested in Olannon's thread. I only need 450 points for two Fish squads.

Now, the justify section. Two things I did, I did with knowledge of their effect, those being not listing my enemies and not commenting on my list. As mentioned in the first post, my current list is only shown so that this thread isn't purely a "make me an army" thread (yes, I know, I'm cheap); as for not mentioning my enemies, that's because lists designed to perform well against a certain type of enemy tend to do godsawfully against other armies (I should know - that list above performs quite well against heavily mechanised IG, but led me to six defeats in a row against 'nids and C/SM).

The global aim of this rework of my list is to be able to compete in GW gaming rooms and, later, tournaments. The last six games (those I lost) were played in a gaming room, and I faced two 'nid armies (an all-rush list and an extremely well-built, extremely balanced have shooty have CC list which I still applaud the player for playing), one Black Templar, one tacmarine heavy Codex-ish lists and two Khornate CSM ones. In other words: AS3+ and hordes - the antipodes of the scale.

I'm a local gamer, meeting up against most stuff. Personally, I prefer 1.5 k armies, but on TauOnline I recently found a GREAT 1000pts MechTau. Here goes:

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

Tasty, though a bit to my dislike. I'll keep this for when I make a 1k list, if you don't mind - it's a good template but needs a few changes to suit my personal tastes.

(Crikey, there's a cap on smilies now...)

[Jal'knock]

HQ Shas'el - fusion blaster, missile pod and multi-tracker.
(81)

Go for a plasma/fusion, it'll work out better for not only tank hunting but also with anti-marine and heavy infantry.

Support Railhead - burst cannons, decoy launchers and multi-tracker.
(165)

Always take target locks so your weapons can always fire independantly.

For expanding to 1500:

Take another fish squad.
Take the two broadsides as one choice, and take another hammerhead.
Any points left over after this should be thrown into single crisis suits.

Good luck with it.

[Olannon]

I'm a local gamer, meeting up against most stuff. Personally, I prefer 1.5 k armies, but on TauOnline I recently found a GREAT 1000pts MechTau. Here goes:

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

[Petronivs]

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

Aside from the 3 hammerheads in a 1000 point list, that list needs some work. Deathrain on the crisis suits, pulse carbines....TauOnline is fun and all, but for efficient lists, it's not the best place to go. I'd surf Dakka for that.

[A neutral shade of black.]

Aside from the 3 hammerheads in a 1000 point list, that list needs some work.

Aye - Crisis suits need equipment tweaking, FW squads and their rides need pumping up and proper equipping, and one of the HHs could probably go in favour of a Stealth squad.

[Jal'knock]

I would leave the 3rd Hammerhead in a 1000 point force, they work extremely well.

[A neutral shade of black.]

I would leave the 3rd Hammerhead in a 1000 point force, they work extremely well.

But a Stealth team is a very versatile addition, and this list somewhat lacks anti infantry weaponry.

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Helios 6
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Helios
Elite II :: Shas'ui XV15 x 4
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 10; Shas'ui; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 10; Shas'ui; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers

This would, I think, make a nice list (I haven't done the math for the points, but they more or less add up, I believe). And anyway, I'm trying to build a 1.5k one.

[Petronivs]

If you go with the latest list, I'd split the 2 crisis suit team up into two monat squads....does nothing but help you. I wouldn't bother with kroot hounds...might as well pay the extra to get kroot that shoot, as shooting is what kroot do best. Deathrain is a dreadful suit choice in 4th edition...with the low number of transports in the bulk of you opponents (no rhino rushes and such), the emphases needs to swing towards setting up crisis suits to deal with +3 save troops jumping/deepstriking in on you. To that end, I'd adjust your earlier list as such:

shas'el (96-98 points)
go with fireknife-6 or helios-6 (TL PR and FB?)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

4 stealth (120)

I'd drop the two shas'ui from your troops and upgrade the 3rd hammerhead to a rail gun. Then, buy each hammerhead a disruption pod. By my calculations, that gets you to 1497. If you prefer, you could make all the suits regular fireknife, drop one hammerhead back to an ion cannon and buy about 10 kroot.

[A neutral shade of black.]

If you go with the latest list, I'd split the 2 crisis suit team up into two monat squads....does nothing but help you. I wouldn't bother with kroot hounds...might as well pay the extra to get kroot that shoot, as shooting is what kroot do best. Deathrain is a dreadful suit choice in 4th edition...with the low number of transports in the bulk of you opponents (no rhino rushes and such), the emphases needs to swing towards setting up crisis suits to deal with +3 save troops jumping/deepstriking in on you. To that end, I'd adjust your earlier list as such:

shas'el (96-98 points)
go with fireknife-6 or helios-6 (TL PR and FB?)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

4 stealth (120)

I'd drop the two shas'ui from your troops and upgrade the 3rd hammerhead to a rail gun. Then, buy each hammerhead a disruption pod. By my calculations, that gets you to 1497. If you prefer, you could make all the suits regular fireknife, drop one hammerhead back to an ion cannon and buy about 10 kroot.

The thing is, I absolutely loathe Fireknife suits. I played with them three years ago when the Tau first came out, and they never yielded any convincing results. I could always swap a Deathrain suit for a Sunforge suit (TLFB and TL/TLFB and flamer in squad, normally). The one advantage Deathrain suits have is that their weapons are 36" of range (as well as assault 2), and S7 AP4 is the perfect thing to have against Tyranid warriors and other such menace.

[Petronivs]

If that's the case, you might want to load up on stealth suits instead of crisis. I think you'll find them more effective then a few deathrain suits. 56-57 points for an autocannon is pretty steep.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the helios/helios-6 setup, as the short range makes it difficult to use to full efficiency against many enemy armies. The death rain has the advantage of always being fairly useful and easy to use/hide with its strong, long-ranged weapon.....the problem is it assists in jobs other Tau units can do fairly well, while avoiding the job it can do better than anything else in the Tau army: kill marines. And you'll see plenty of marines, as I'm sure you're aware. But, there are millions of threads on the suit configuration debate, so I won't rehash it here.

I'm considering an Ionhead in my 1500 point list, but that railgun is so useful. The submunition is critical to thinning out Tyranids (which I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of), while the chance of 2 railguns failing to take out enemy armor for a turn or two (misses, bad pen rolls, etc) it fairly high. That third gun can be pretty important...just a thought.

Also might want to look at only one commander suit, as my recommended list had. Can more points into scoring units, which may be useful if you play missions that count that sort of thing. You'll have 2 devilfish and a commander that can't score points already....adding another commander just hurts you more in that area.

[Jal'knock]

Elite 2 * Deathrain Shas'ui (TLMP and TL/TLMP and flamer)
(113)

I would still seriously doubt the effectiveness of this squad. (except against transports and very light vehicles)

Elite 4 * SS Shas'ui
(120)

You'd be better off getting more crisis suits to lay down heavier fire. Your elites are your lower ap choices, take them.

Heavy Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.(180)

I would still advise taking the burst cannons and saving 30 points. If nothing else you could buy yourself another stealth suit.

[A neutral shade of black.]

If that's the case, you might want to load up on stealth suits instead of crisis. I think you'll find them more effective then a few deathrain suits. 56-57 points for an autocannon is pretty steep.

My only problem being that I can no longer take out the transports that well.
Even for the people who staunchly believe in "making back the points" (which, might I add, I don't), a Deathrain team shooting at a Dreadnaught and scoring any kind of hit on it that will render it useless (even if only for a turn) has just tied up ~120 points's worth of enemy armour (compared to their 113). And, as I said before, they're great for keeping the 'nid guns - warriors - occupied.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the helios/helios-6 setup, as the short range makes it difficult to use to full efficiency against many enemy armies. The death rain has the advantage of always being fairly useful and easy to use/hide with its strong, long-ranged weapon.....the problem is it assists in jobs other Tau units can do fairly well, while avoiding the job it can do better than anything else in the Tau army: kill marines. And you'll see plenty of marines, as I'm sure you're aware. But, there are millions of threads on the suit configuration debate, so I won't rehash it here.

Although close-ranged, a Helios-6 suit is, in theory, protected by its IC status (being a command suit - I know it's adaptable to team leader, but in this case the approximation works).
I can understand your aversion to Deathrain suits, but I like them (I am aware that that's not an argument to base a winning list on ). What else would you suggest (for all the suits, not just the HQ slots)? I'm interested in knowing.

I'm considering an Ionhead in my 1500 point list, but that railgun is so useful. The submunition is critical to thinning out Tyranids (which I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of), while the chance of 2 railguns failing to take out enemy armor for a turn or two (misses, bad pen rolls, etc) it fairly high. That third gun can be pretty important...just a thought.

And twenty more points which, since the list is precisely 1500 points, I don't have.
That aside, I'm also a full partisan of the railgun and its subammo template - I've just decided I might try something new, since I've been losing quite a bit and I keep hearing people raving about how useful an Ionhead is...

Also might want to look at only one commander suit, as my recommended list had. Can more points into scoring units, which may be useful if you play missions that count that sort of thing. You'll have 2 devilfish and a commander that can't score points already....adding another commander just hurts you more in that area.

If I remove a commander, I remove roughly 50% of my anti-marine efficiency (33% if we count the Ionhead in, but that's not sure yet). That's a scary number, if you ask me. Arguably, I could just keep a single Deathrain suit and have a TLPR suit as a second Elite slot, but that one wouldn't be protected by its IC status. If you can see a way for this to work out, I'm interested.

I would still seriously doubt the effectiveness of this squad. (except against transports and very light vehicles)

...which is what they're there for?

You'd be better off getting more crisis suits to lay down heavier fire. Your elites are your lower ap choices, take them.

The only problem being that, of course, this deprives me of even more antin-infantry fire.

I would still advise taking the burst cannons and saving 30 points. If nothing else you could buy yourself another stealth suit.

A point, actually - I could even remove the Kroot in favour of a second Stealth unit (or some Crisis suits?)...

[Jal'knock]

...which is what they're there for?

Sorry, I have never really seen people use suits in that config.

The only problem being that, of course, this deprives me of even more antin-infantry fire.?)

True but less shots at higher AP are the best option for suits versus marines, who will be your main concern in most games. Also TMCs and other units like them are vulnerable to plasma weaponry, something you should have as much as possible of.

A point, actually - I could even remove the Kroot in favour of a second Stealth unit (or some Crisis suits?)...

I wouldn't. At most one stealth team is useful but for some players their kroot get overrun or simply get caught in some heavy firepower, wiping them out. Sometimes a Stealth Team would be a good choice instead (I can't believe I'm actually advocating Stealth Suits! )

[Jonathan =I=]

I would still advise taking the burst cannons and saving 30 points. If nothing else you could buy yourself another stealth suit.

I disagree the Smart missile system is almost always a better bet.

Idealy you want the railhead as far away as possable and the 24 inch indirect fire makes it just that much easier to do. You really dont want to be getting into 18 inches of any enemy u it with a Hammerhead.

[fubukii]

hmmm mech tau seem to be very popular on this board after i posted my list .

3 hammerheads pack alot of power both in tank killing and anti light infantry its never a bad choice.

[Olannon]

@ fubuki Tau mech armies have been popular to people not since your list was posted, but since 4th ed at least. The development of FoF + some new LOS rules makes it a great choice, and there are entire forums and websites dedicated to MechTau

[A neutral shade of black.]

(Hrmph, been a while since I visited this site...)

THREAD NECROMANCY! RAWR!

Yeah, sorry about that. I just picked up my army list and started tweaking it again after taking a month-and-a-bit break from my Tau. Since it seems there are few sites that can understand the concept of Mech Tau ("zomg drop ur vehicels and put in soem more troops on foot! and wut r u doign w/ those devilifhises? ur st00pid!" tends to be the answer I most often get ) and this is one of them, I figured I might as well post the new list here; and since I figured I might as well post it here, I saw no point in making a new thread. Might as well revive this one, no? All this is probably not going to count for very long, given the soon-to-come publication of Codex: Tau Empire, but still.

The list as it stands now:

HQ Fireknife-6 'el (TLPR, MP, HWMT)
(98)

HQ Fireknife-6 'el (TLPR, MP, HWMT)
(98)

Elite 4 * SS Shas'ui
(120)

Elite 4 * SS Shas'ui
(120)

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troops 13 * Kroot carnivores
(91)

Heavy Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Heavy Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Heavy Support Ionhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(160)

Total 1497

I finally got convinced to take Fireknife suits (though I can't remember why ; anyway, I'm also angling for something a little bit different from the first lists for fluff reasons), so that's why those are in there. I'm not quite sure about the Kroot (not enough of them) and having two squads of four Stealth suits (I would have prefered to have one of four and one of six, but that leaves me with only 34 points left and no Kroot... though I'm not sure why I'd want Kroot in this list, actually).

Any opinions?