[1.5k MechTau]Need help with the building.

[A neutral shade of black.]

Hello, Portent (oops - I mean, Warseer )!

After a string of bitter losses, I feel let down by my Tau (for the fourth time in three and a bit years, but heh). Since I've put quite a bunch of cash in the Tau force I have so far (it used to be 2k static, then I sold half of it and bought some extras, and I'm eventually going to buy what I need to put it back up to 1.5k, then 2k - that's about 350€ so far, and another 120€ at least to go), I've decided to force myself to stick with it and ask for help rewriting my army list:

HQ Shas'el - fusion blaster, missile pod and multi-tracker.
(81)

Elite Shas'ui - same kit.
(61)

Elite Ditto.
(61)

Troop 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troop Ditto.
(225)

Support Broadside - twin-linked railguns, smart missile system and multi-tracker.
(75)

Support Ditto.
(75)

Support Railhead - burst cannons, decoy launchers and multi-tracker.
(165)

Total 998 points.

That being the list I currently use, shown only so you can see what I normally play - this thread is an attempt at rebuilding a whole new list, from scratch.

As far as what I'm trying to go for is concerned, it's simple: I've had enough with losing, so I'm going for the "beardiest" possible MechTau list (heh, I said "beard" and Tau in the same sentence) in 1.5k format. I suppose it would run along the lines of 2 * 'el + 2 * unit of 2 CS + unit of 6 SS (four don't seem to do enough damage before they die), minimal FW units and maybe some Kroot, and as many Hammerheads as can possibly be packed in. The problem is, after that, I've no clue what the details are to be. I also need to have a 1k list following that template, which I'll work out later on.

I know what the army will look like in general, but I have no idea what the details are going to be, and how to fine-tune things, hence my asking for help. As far as the Crisis suits are concerned, squads of two suits are the way to go. That would give me the following:
Helios team - 2 * Shas'ui; TLPR + TL/TLPR + ?.
Deathrain team - 2 * Shas'ui; TLMP + TL/TLMP + ?

I also have a huge problem with transports - I always (and I mean it) unload either too early, or too late (i.e. not at all). I just can't seem to get the right moment, which is why while my original 1.5k list had three Fish units, I'm thinking of taking only two - but I feel that's not enough. A short list of the questions I'm asking myself:

- HQ section: what, how many and equipped how?
- Elite section: how many stealth suits? What to give the second member of each of the Crisis squads?
- Troop: is only twenty four fire warriors too little infantry? How am I going to cope with opposite troops if I have so little anti-infatry firepower myself, especially since they seem to always die/be tied up in CC by turn two?
- Heavy Support: target lock and 170 points, or no target lock and 165 points (I field them RG + BCs + DL + MT)? SMS or BCs?

Of course, some of this will probably be moot when (if?) they bring out Codex: Tau Empires (or whatever they're deciding to name it) and its new race of winged aliens, but this is doing with what he have and dealing with the now.

[Iron_Wolves]

to have a mobile TAU list you need to be mobile, with 2 broadsides you are not mobile.

Then for the crisis suits add plasma rifle not fusion blaster, with fusion blaster you have to get tooo close for it to be effective. Minus the broadsides add another hammerhead. If you field this you will have a beardy list

[Petronivs]

What might be helpful to know is: what's giving you trouble? Are you playing in tournaments with all sorts of opponents, or just a local gaming group with a more limited selection of enemies? Knowing what causes you the most trouble would help to tweak your list the right way, although the Tau list is fairly standard when it comes to maximizing efficiency.

Iron Wolves' comments are right-on, and for a 1500 point list, 3 railgun-toting hammerheads would be pretty effective, I think. You could upgrade your crisis suits (commander and team leaders) to TL PR, MP and HW MT. Depending on how you judge such things, it usually comes out well on the points-per-marines-killed efficiency scores. I'm considering swapping a commander's (or both?) missile pod with a fusion blaster in my list to dissuade things from rushing my line as much....not sure how well it'll work though, so I'd stick with the missile pod for now.

Depending on how much you want to beef things up (2 shas'els? 2 2-suit crisis teams, a 6 man stealth team and 3 railheads?) you could be looking at about 350 left for troops. At that point, you might want a 10 man FW squad and a bunch of kroot. This army would be pretty fragile, but would have a good deal of firepower and mobility, with two decent-sized kroot squads for infiltration.

[Olannon]

I'm a local gamer, meeting up against most stuff. Personally, I prefer 1.5 k armies, but on TauOnline I recently found a GREAT 1000pts MechTau. Here goes:

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

[A neutral shade of black.]

What might be helpful to know is: what's giving you trouble? Are you playing in tournaments with all sorts of opponents, or just a local gaming group with a more limited selection of enemies? Knowing what causes you the most trouble would help to tweak your list the right way, although the Tau list is fairly standard when it comes to maximizing efficiency.

Iron Wolves' comments are right-on, and for a 1500 point list, 3 railgun-toting hammerheads would be pretty effective, I think. You could upgrade your crisis suits (commander and team leaders) to TL PR, MP and HW MT. Depending on how you judge such things, it usually comes out well on the points-per-marines-killed efficiency scores. I'm considering swapping a commander's (or both?) missile pod with a fusion blaster in my list to dissuade things from rushing my line as much....not sure how well it'll work though, so I'd stick with the missile pod for now.

Depending on how much you want to beef things up (2 shas'els? 2 2-suit crisis teams, a 6 man stealth team and 3 railheads?) you could be looking at about 350 left for troops. At that point, you might want a 10 man FW squad and a bunch of kroot. This army would be pretty fragile, but would have a good deal of firepower and mobility, with two decent-sized kroot squads for infiltration.

The list was only an outline, taken from what I've observed most players call "evil Mech," and as such wasn't strictly to be observed. On second thought, I could well do with a single 'el - more than five Crisis suits aren't needed - or even the two Helios 6 'el/one DR squad I suggested in Olannon's thread. I only need 450 points for two Fish squads.

Now, the justify section. Two things I did, I did with knowledge of their effect, those being not listing my enemies and not commenting on my list. As mentioned in the first post, my current list is only shown so that this thread isn't purely a "make me an army" thread (yes, I know, I'm cheap); as for not mentioning my enemies, that's because lists designed to perform well against a certain type of enemy tend to do godsawfully against other armies (I should know - that list above performs quite well against heavily mechanised IG, but led me to six defeats in a row against 'nids and C/SM).

The global aim of this rework of my list is to be able to compete in GW gaming rooms and, later, tournaments. The last six games (those I lost) were played in a gaming room, and I faced two 'nid armies (an all-rush list and an extremely well-built, extremely balanced have shooty have CC list which I still applaud the player for playing), one Black Templar, one tacmarine heavy Codex-ish lists and two Khornate CSM ones. In other words: AS3+ and hordes - the antipodes of the scale.

I'm a local gamer, meeting up against most stuff. Personally, I prefer 1.5 k armies, but on TauOnline I recently found a GREAT 1000pts MechTau. Here goes:

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

Tasty, though a bit to my dislike. I'll keep this for when I make a 1k list, if you don't mind - it's a good template but needs a few changes to suit my personal tastes.

(Crikey, there's a cap on smilies now...)

[Jal'knock]

HQ Shas'el - fusion blaster, missile pod and multi-tracker.
(81)

Go for a plasma/fusion, it'll work out better for not only tank hunting but also with anti-marine and heavy infantry.

Support Railhead - burst cannons, decoy launchers and multi-tracker.
(165)

Always take target locks so your weapons can always fire independantly.

For expanding to 1500:

Take another fish squad.
Take the two broadsides as one choice, and take another hammerhead.
Any points left over after this should be thrown into single crisis suits.

Good luck with it.

[Petronivs]

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Twin-linked Missile Pods; Flamer
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 8; Pulse Carbines x 2; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy III :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Burst Cannons; Multi-tracker; Decoy Launchers

Aside from the 3 hammerheads in a 1000 point list, that list needs some work. Deathrain on the crisis suits, pulse carbines....TauOnline is fun and all, but for efficient lists, it's not the best place to go. I'd surf Dakka for that.

[A neutral shade of black.]

Aside from the 3 hammerheads in a 1000 point list, that list needs some work.

Aye - Crisis suits need equipment tweaking, FW squads and their rides need pumping up and proper equipping, and one of the HHs could probably go in favour of a Stealth squad.

[Jal'knock]

I would leave the 3rd Hammerhead in a 1000 point force, they work extremely well.

[A neutral shade of black.]

I would leave the 3rd Hammerhead in a 1000 point force, they work extremely well.

But a Stealth team is a very versatile addition, and this list somewhat lacks anti infantry weaponry.

HQ I :: Shas'el Commander; Helios 6
Elite I :: Shas'ui XV8; Helios
Elite II :: Shas'ui XV15 x 4
Troop I :: Fire Warriors x 10; Shas'ui; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Troop II :: Fire Warriors x 10; Shas'ui; Devilfish; Multi-tracker; Targeting Array; Decoy Launchers
Heavy I :: Hammerhead; Railgun; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers
Heavy II :: Hammerhead; Ion Cannon; Smart Missile System; Multi-tracker; Target Locks; Decoy Launchers

This would, I think, make a nice list (I haven't done the math for the points, but they more or less add up, I believe). And anyway, I'm trying to build a 1.5k one.

[A neutral shade of black.]

Double post to make things clearer.
I'm going to work backwards in this post - I know what I want for Support and Troops, but not HQ and Elite.

Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Support Ionhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(160)

Standard selection, of course.

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Which is also standard. Wish I had enough points for a Kroot speedbump, but I guess that will have to wait for the 2k list, if I get to it (of course, I might use Vespids instead ).

Then, there's the issue of the Elite and HQ slots. How many Stealth suits I want to take (four, six?) is the minor issue. The big one is this: what Crisis suits load-out do I want? I have the choice between the following:
- one 'el, two two-suit units;
- two 'els, one two-suit unit;
- two 'els, two one-suit units.

Once that's decided (I'm tied between #2 and #3, but #1 isn't out yet), I need to decide on their load-out. I was thinking two Helios-6 command suits and the Elite CS as Deathrains (except in case #1, which would have to be two TLPR suits as Elite slot one and two Deathrains as slot two, as well as a Helios-6 command suit). I also need some - more - anti - infantry - squads! A second Stealth team, maybe (forcing me towards #2), and once again I hesitate between six and four.

And then, of course, there's points.

[Jal'knock]

But a Stealth team is a very versatile addition, and this list somewhat lacks anti infantry weaponry.

The manouverability of the 'head is worth it, coupled with its survivability and its firepower. Stealth suits are mediocre at best.

EDIT: I like the one commander, 2X2 crisis option.

[A neutral shade of black.]

The manouverability of the 'head is worth it, coupled with its survivability and its firepower. Stealth suits are mediocre at best.

Sorry, I just find the first part of your statement funny - Hammerheads tend to die by turn two having killed nothing in my hands.

As far as Stealth suits are concerned, I profoundly disagree. Stealth suits, apart from being the best Tau models out there, have numerous uses if in the right hands. Granted, they're a bit hard to use, but calling them mediocre?

[Jal'knock]

My hammerheads have won local tournaments on their own, or even college tournies, I have more than 30 witnesses to that. The thing is to deny your enemy line of sight and prioritise. If you kill his biggest weapons he can't shoot you down unless you manouver badly.

[A neutral shade of black.]

The thing is to deny your enemy line of sight and prioritise. If you kill his biggest weapons he can't shoot you down unless you manouver badly.

If you can see them, they can see you. Since this might help mine surviving, how do you manage to use them and deny LoS to them?

[Jal'knock]

Area terrain is the best way to use Hammerheads, only expose your 'heads to the enemy when you must and only to the units you intend to target. Either that or go for the head (excuse the pun) by charging them headlong down the battlefield, shooting as you go. Use your other units to draw firepower away from them and your elites (crisis) to take on heavy units. Although I will point out, what works for me may not work for you.

[A neutral shade of black.]

My point was that the 'heads can only shoot what they see (with the railgun at least), and what they see can shoot back... I use the all-out charge method, which usually results in the tanks dying as described.

Anyway, trying to get this thread moving on: the combination of Troop and Support choices I picked take up 970 points of the 1500 available, leaving me with (simple maths, but anyway) 530 points. Four Stealth suits are 120; 410 to go. 'el with TLPR, FB and HWMT is 96 points (ouch). The two Deathrain suits are 56 and 57, so 113. That makes 297 not counting the HQs. If I take two 'els, that's another 192 points gone, leaving me with 105 points - a moderate Kroot squad?


HQ Helios-6 'el (TLPR, FB, HWMT)
(96)

HQ Helios-6 'el (TLPR, FB, HWMT)
(96)

Elite 2 * Deathrain Shas'ui (TLMP and TL/TLMP and flamer)
(113)

Elite 4 * SS Shas'ui
(120)

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troops 12 * FW - Shas'ui (130)
Devilfish - decoy launchers, multi-tracker. (95)
(225)

Troops 15 * Kroot carnivores
(105)

Heavy Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Heavy Support Railhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(180)

Heavy Support Ionhead - SMS, decoy launchers, target lock and multi-tracker.
(160)


Edited for Deathrain second support module.

[Petronivs]

If you go with the latest list, I'd split the 2 crisis suit team up into two monat squads....does nothing but help you. I wouldn't bother with kroot hounds...might as well pay the extra to get kroot that shoot, as shooting is what kroot do best. Deathrain is a dreadful suit choice in 4th edition...with the low number of transports in the bulk of you opponents (no rhino rushes and such), the emphases needs to swing towards setting up crisis suits to deal with +3 save troops jumping/deepstriking in on you. To that end, I'd adjust your earlier list as such:

shas'el (96-98 points)
go with fireknife-6 or helios-6 (TL PR and FB?)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

4 stealth (120)

I'd drop the two shas'ui from your troops and upgrade the 3rd hammerhead to a rail gun. Then, buy each hammerhead a disruption pod. By my calculations, that gets you to 1497. If you prefer, you could make all the suits regular fireknife, drop one hammerhead back to an ion cannon and buy about 10 kroot.

[A neutral shade of black.]

If you go with the latest list, I'd split the 2 crisis suit team up into two monat squads....does nothing but help you. I wouldn't bother with kroot hounds...might as well pay the extra to get kroot that shoot, as shooting is what kroot do best. Deathrain is a dreadful suit choice in 4th edition...with the low number of transports in the bulk of you opponents (no rhino rushes and such), the emphases needs to swing towards setting up crisis suits to deal with +3 save troops jumping/deepstriking in on you. To that end, I'd adjust your earlier list as such:

shas'el (96-98 points)
go with fireknife-6 or helios-6 (TL PR and FB?)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

Crisis team leader with fireknife-6 (83)
fireknife (65)

4 stealth (120)

I'd drop the two shas'ui from your troops and upgrade the 3rd hammerhead to a rail gun. Then, buy each hammerhead a disruption pod. By my calculations, that gets you to 1497. If you prefer, you could make all the suits regular fireknife, drop one hammerhead back to an ion cannon and buy about 10 kroot.

The thing is, I absolutely loathe Fireknife suits. I played with them three years ago when the Tau first came out, and they never yielded any convincing results. I could always swap a Deathrain suit for a Sunforge suit (TLFB and TL/TLFB and flamer in squad, normally). The one advantage Deathrain suits have is that their weapons are 36" of range (as well as assault 2), and S7 AP4 is the perfect thing to have against Tyranid warriors and other such menace.

[Petronivs]

If that's the case, you might want to load up on stealth suits instead of crisis. I think you'll find them more effective then a few deathrain suits. 56-57 points for an autocannon is pretty steep.

I'm not sure I'm sold on the helios/helios-6 setup, as the short range makes it difficult to use to full efficiency against many enemy armies. The death rain has the advantage of always being fairly useful and easy to use/hide with its strong, long-ranged weapon.....the problem is it assists in jobs other Tau units can do fairly well, while avoiding the job it can do better than anything else in the Tau army: kill marines. And you'll see plenty of marines, as I'm sure you're aware. But, there are millions of threads on the suit configuration debate, so I won't rehash it here.

I'm considering an Ionhead in my 1500 point list, but that railgun is so useful. The submunition is critical to thinning out Tyranids (which I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of), while the chance of 2 railguns failing to take out enemy armor for a turn or two (misses, bad pen rolls, etc) it fairly high. That third gun can be pretty important...just a thought.

Also might want to look at only one commander suit, as my recommended list had. Can more points into scoring units, which may be useful if you play missions that count that sort of thing. You'll have 2 devilfish and a commander that can't score points already....adding another commander just hurts you more in that area.