Lost & The Damned Tactica

[AMBS]

I think it's time we had a Lost & The Damned tactica on warseer.

So what are you currently fielding in praise to the ruinous powers? A horde of mutants, a renegade Imperial guard unit, or just a random hotch potch of stuff?

I'm thinking of starting a chaos cult with lots of traitors and a couple of mutant squads. The army will work much like a regular Imperial guard unit, but with some assaulty goodness in the form of 3 defilers while anti tank fire is provided by lots of traitor sentinels.

Might get some chaos hounds for speedy distractions too!

[gorgon]

Honestly, I think Traitors are just about the weakest thing in the list. They're low-Ld IG that cost 33% more than IG. From a competitive standpoint, the main reason to take them is the access they give to IG tanks. Infiltrate sounds nice, but Traitor units just dissolve when they come under any fire. The best way to use their infiltration is to set up shots with heavy weapons. Generally I keep my Traitor units small and cheap, arming them with ACs for anti-skimmer fire.

Stuff I like include large Mutant squads w/PFists, Chaos Hounds, Chaos Spawn, Russes, Basilisks, Daemons, allied CSMs, Oblits and D. Princes. So obviously, I like a fair amount of the list. LatD have a lot of disparate elements, so the key is figuring out how the units you want to field work together.

I also like Asp. Champs with PFs and MoCU in Mutant squads, but be careful about upgrading them too much. They can get pricey and their performance will still find a way to underwhelm you.

[Krootman]

5 man traitor squad with a lascannon is the only config you should be taking. Its a squad that you use to mess up your opponents infiltrate deployment, and to try to get a good side shot off on a tank first turn...then they die.

Mutants are best in 20-30 man sizes with a p fist mutant boss, a csm champ (as said tho just give him mocu and a powerfist nothing else). Depending on how you want your army to work as a whole you can either give your mutants leaping, a 4+ save or just leave them as is. Finally with firearms...they are free take them but only fire them if they can truely make a game breaking difference (like shooting a squad out of charge range to bring it under half on the last turn of the game.

Oblits are your friend, they should always be the elite unit from codex csm that you take.

As for the rest of the units you run from codex csm...thats up to you...pretty much make sure it matches the style of your latd army.Gunline...run csm units with heavy weapons. Combat...run a big nasty chaos lord.

Heres an example of my old latd list I ran for a while...did pretty good when I ran it. Its a all commers 1500 list.
Hq
Champion of chaos (goes with mutants)
-Mark of chaos undiv
-power weapon
-daemonic strength
Total: 62

Champion of chaos (goes with mutants)
-Mark of chaos undiv
-power weapon
-daemonic strength
Total: 62

Elites

3 obliterators
Total :210

Troops

29 mutants
-mutant boss
-powerfist
Total: 210

29 mutants
-mutant boss
-powerfist
Total: 210

8 traitors
-lascannon
Total: 84

8 chaos space marines
-lascannon
-bolters
-champ
-power weapon
-daemonic strength
Total: 169

9 chaos space marines
-lascannon
-bolters
-champ
-power fist
Total: 169

Heavy support

Traitor russ
Sponson heavy bolters
Hull heavy bolter
-extra armor
-smoke launchers
-search light
Total:164

Deflier
Mutated hull or indirect depending who im playing
Total 175 or 180

Army total
1506
you can drop the traitors down to a bear min of 5 to get special weapons in the csm squads if you want. Hope this helps

[AMBS]

If the traitors are shooting at vehicle side armour, why not drop their lascannons down to missile launchers to save on some points and make them 'appear' less of a threat?

Not a bad little list you've got there. But what happens if (and when) LATD can't take space marine allies? Does it mean they're screwed?

[Krootman]

If the traitors are shooting at vehicle side armour, why not drop their lascannons down to missile launchers to save on some points and make them 'appear' less of a threat?

Not a bad little list you've got there. But what happens if (and when) LATD can't take space marine allies? Does it mean they're screwed?

Because they are already dirt cheep and your really only going to get 1, or 2 shots off from that heavy weapon at most so you may as well make it count.

As for having no latd allies deal with it when the time comes, its just easer that way. Cant really plan for that because the current rules are designed to work with codex csm...im sure if they redo latd with out codex csm then they will redo the rules taking that into account.

[AMBS]

Also, when LATD were tourney legal they weren't allowed CSM allies.

Either way, I only need 4 mutants and a russ to make the list you've mentioned.

[Sceleris]

Run various LatD style lists at various points (currently a 1000pt all infantry list - v silly).

Here are a few musings on the subject.

HQ Choices

Greater Daemon – Always fun and given that you can hide the vessel in amongst 30 mutants unlikely to get nailed pre-summoning. Useful amount of CC punch in an army that can lack it.

Arch H – Rarely take one, either relying on a GD for some punch or a number of AspCs. Can do anything a regular Lt can do – so quite a lot.

Allied Lord/Lt – Nasty double-team play with GD and allied statured DP. Not really my style but certainly can be nasty backed up with mutants, small traitor squads and tanks.

AspCs – These are vital if you are looking to run mutant heavy lists. Good Ld (esp with re-roll from MoCU) will mean the bulk of your troops will rarely run. Can be tooled up pretty well since they can’t be picked out (barring mindwar etc) and access to gear at cheap rates. PFs plus whatever else takes your fancy seems to be general stock equipment. DStr + PW maybe for MoS (PlagueS and AoK possible alternatives for the others).

Elites

Big Mutants – Sometimes really a fluff choice over a tactical one. Relatively expensive, poor save and ID-able to anything s8 can waste the large number of wounds (and s6 attacks!) that these guys get. Scaly makes these guys cost even more and won’t help against nasty weapons. Stubbers & flamers aren’t too bad an option but can’t really justify the boss upgrade.

Daemons – May be worth it but given you are using up an elite slot for what would otherwise be a regular troop choice I wouldn’t have lots of these.

Possessed – Does what it says on the tin. A way of getting decent cc troops into a LatD list without allies and/or using an allied slot.

Allies – The odd unit might not go amiss but I personally try to get away without them. That said Obbies are a nice little option – a couple of these and you have some reliable fire-power. Chosen can be another nasty shock – allied lord and termie ret plus separate unit as well coming in off a traitor agitator’s t-homer can be amusing.

Troops

Mutants – Mutant heavy lists are likely to do better that traitor ones (if you want to go that route maybe look at using IG with traits or DH/WH list). More mutants are better IMO than upgraded ones. Burly/Goatheaded only pays off if you can get enough of them into combat. Bloated can work but does drop you numbers by 50%. Rarely use the slaanesh blessing – just give DVis to the AspC who accompanies them is almost as effective (and certainly cheaper). Speed upgrade makes these mutants costly but it can be effective as a vessel delivery system or with suitable upgraded AspC/Boss with PF can take an enemy by surprise. Zombies, tough, fearless and will hang around but slow – often more a distraction that the key to success.

Traitors – Basically overpriced IG with poorer options and lousy Ld. Useful in that they can get a couple of heavy/spec weapons and get somewhere nice to infiltrate. Unless used to IG or similar the BS3 can come as a shock. Don’t bank on these guys hanging around too much. Large units are really a waste and CC/pistol armed squads are practically free VPs for your opponent.

Gibbering Horde – Fun, cheap and they can be used as compulsory troops in an otherwise traitor heavy list (so you don’t have to have 15 strong units of the useless things). Way of packing lots of wounds into a list and can be used as a defensive screen in front of more valuable stuff.

Fast Attack

Hounds – not too badly priced and either good as some mobility in an otherwise slow army or as extra quick troops in and army with tzeentch blessed mutants and flying possessed. OK in combat but better as part of a tag-team.

Mounted traitors – Not great overall. Having some extra fire from a chimera isn’t a bad idea and the odd rhino with dirge-casters can keep your other stuff from running (don’t stick anything in them, just drive them up with the walking stuff). Have some in one of my lists but that is because I want a khornate vessel delivery package.

Sentinels – OK for some extra firepower and scout move helps. Can become overly expensive if tooled up with LasC, HKillers etc – and do you really want to bank on a single shot at BS3? As with the following two choices you need traitors to get them.

Hell-hound – haven’t really used but on paper not a bad bet.

Rough Riders – again some mobility and have a reasonable CC punch on the charge.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ – nice tank, shame about having to have the traitors to get one. Kept cheap and cheerful can provide decent fire and good armour can keep it alive even though it’s likely to be a key target.

Basilisk – Give it IDF and hide it. Can be vulnerable to enemy infil/FA

Defilers – Can fill either (or both) the above roles give access to Mutated Hull, para possession, IDF etc. Can get expensive – one each of the above could almost be cheaper.

Spawn - fun. Comparatively cheap, decent W, T and Sv, and potentially large number of s5 attacks.

[AMBS]

Why take sentinels when you can take obliterators to do the same job better and cheaper

Sceleris:

what are you currently fielding in your 1000pts of sillyness?

[Killmaimburn]

Scelaris gives a good run down,
i'd just put in, i'd never trust a BS2 heavy stubber (big mutant),but flamers might be good, as long as your opponent doesn't know how tough you are etc
Asp champs, at their cheapest cost comparable amounts to brutes and the leadership boost is without price.
Don't forget mutant bosses come with 2 wounds (every seems to skip that bit).


You might have seen mine around before ( i went through a phase of sticking it everywhere), simple effective. (bit overpowered)
I think a theme is important in LATD because its a very easy to abuse the list and having a story to tell your opponent softens the blow, mine is the medieval dead\chaos corrupting a pre warp world, with brettonians (basic mutants and traitors) and dark elfs with capes (leaping mutants). i've changed the fluff from tzeentch to khorne and back again so many times I got lost.

2x6 man traitor squads, (something like las, or autocannon and flamer)- 136
2x Indirect basis =250

2x 20 Leaping mutants
+1 brute leader with fist- 554
Led by Aspiring champions with powerfists speed and MOCU 144

2x 21 standard mutants (firearms for last resort) 240
Led by Aspiring champions with power fists, and MOCU 124

102 models, 2 tanks.
Leaves me around 40 shy of 1500.
A few points to play with for how the mood takes me.(normally mutation for the front asp champs, maybe a few more mutants)
EDIT: Yes I am still slowly building trebuchets for the basis, No they aren't finished, No they look like poo at the moment.

The aim,1st turn basis and traitors, turn 2 60mutant attacks and 9+ power fists x2. Turn 3 the mutants squads who filled up my deployment zone shuffle forwards and start cleaning up the mess.
List mainly suffers to flamers (when I'm lazy and just shove stuff forwards I can lose 15 miniatures to one template)
And good lists that hide on the edge of their table.

I sometimes remove 1 basic mutant squad and its aspiring champion to put in a statured lord, but he doesn't really sit well with me in this list.But its stops me having so many models that I lose track of, and speeds up the game.

Heres a rules thread from a while back
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78450
In which its decided that vets skils can be bought for Aspiring champs, I personally am not a fan, I think its on shaky ground, but it might be usefull for people using your thread to have the link.I say get your greater demon there a proper way

[AMBS]

I'd take fantasy Chaos cannons for the bassies myself.

How are you modelling your leaping mutants exactly?

[SevenSins]

I'd take fantasy Chaos cannons for the bassies myself.

How are you modelling your leaping mutants exactly?

This would be more for the modeling/painting section I believe

If we are going to keep this thread useful we should try to avoid cluttering with all sorts of comments and short answers. Just look at all the other "tacticas" half of the posts are rubbish.

I run 2 big mutant squads usually, one leaping and one regular. And 4 small infiltraiting traitor squads with icons for demon sumoning

[Sceleris]

Few other points to remember:
The marks give to the AspC's do not work in the same way of those in C:CSM (barring for ancient enemies rule) so those with MoN, MoS, MoT and MoK aren't fearless.
The mutant blessings aren't marks so you can mix and match mutant with AsPcs - ie blessing of nurgle with a MoK'd AspC. Also zombies/bloated will die of rot!

Some usefulish mutant/AspC combos:-
Tzeentch mutants and anyone with speed (as in above list)
Bloated/zombies with khorne AspC on jugger
Have MoT guy in termie armour with BoC and thralls - move and fire untouchable LasC

Couple of points on allies:-
Any of the god specific legions are tricky since marked stuff count as elites and since you can't take daemons as allies you won't get the favoured bonus.
IW aren't really worth it since you can't benefit from any of their good stuff (leaving you with servo-arm and free siege spec).
Similarly with NL - although sleath can be fun
AL can get you cheap cultists - if you like the guard idea but suffer from traitors being useless in cc could consider this approach.
WBs - don't benefit from taking extra stuff but Demagogue is a godsend


@ AMBS - obbies take up the often much needed allied elite slot, sentienls don't

1000 point list of LatD silliness

AspC – MoCU, PF, Mutation, DStr (77)
AspC – MoN, Plague Sword, DStr, Mutation, Frags, Meltabombs (73)
Obliterator (70)
6 Big Mutants (150)
19 Mutants – 2 Flamers (120) - with MoCU AspC
17 Mutants – 2 Flamers (108) - with MoN AspC
8 Traitors – Agitator, LasC, PG (104)
8 Traitors – Agitator, AutoC, Melta (99)
8 Traitors – Agitator, ML, GrenL (99)
5 Chaos Spawn (100)

When going up to 1500 add a LRuss, a pair of sentinels, an extra obby, some more mutants and tool the AspCs up a little bit more. For 2000 in comes a bare khorne AspC, 'thirster and some possessed.

[Killmaimburn]

Lets see more tips that need digging out:
Why firearms for mutants:
1 they are cheap\free (pointswise)
2 you don't lose an attack taking them (as its mutation not 2nd cc bonus)
3 they are easier to model than all the appendages, (100 arms holding guns (slightly modded) is easier than 200 scratch built tentacles- if you don't have mutation spru, I tend to just swap out a limb per model for plastic orc bits, seems to work quite well and they really cheap)
4 All the other ranged weapons cost a lot in the long term (e.g.a 1pt pistol is 100 points if you have 100 models). Note the only exception being flamers, they are really handy
5 You don't have to, and should not, use them. but If its turn 6 and you can't make assualt you can always have a go if you feel the risk is justified.
Be aware that some people suggest that taking firearms means your brute (if you take one) also has one meaning he doesn't get +1 for 2ccs, I'm not sure one way or the other just read up a bit before playing it.
heres a tenously related rules thread


Barebones mutants with firearms, led by aspiring champion of tzeentch with a clutter of minor powers, aim for reckoning of tzeentch.(a 4)
with Firearms BS2 (and gets Hot) but now they get to reroll
"the psyker and **any** squad he accompanies"
Not great, but worth a lazy sunday to see if you can stop all your blokes blowing up in 1 shooting round.
(someone once did the maths but I lost the thread where he did.He said it was an ok idea)
Edit found it

It's not bad, but I'd also take "bolt of change" and maybe some other candy. When you've got a sorcerer in a mob of mutants, candy (for the sorcerer) is the way to go. (And no, "bloated" is not subject to ancient enemies, because the name is just flavor- it could as easily be armor, or sorcerous protections.)

Actually, even when rapid firing, you' only "get hot" one shot in 9, while hitting with 5 in 9. In that case, stock mutants would kill 1.38 points of marines per shot, while loosing .44 points of mutants per shot. Not bad. ("Bloated" mutants loose .66 worth of mutants per shot, so naked may be the way to go, though the 4+ is VERY nice vs enemy fire.)
Shooting at 24" becomes a very safe option; mutants kill .69 points of marines per shot, and loose only .11 points of mutant per shot. You could shoot all game and still break even. Combined with certain CoD stratagems (the one that lets you re-roll wounds would be great) it could be quite good indeed.

Also its a small compensation for the people who build a whole tzeentch list only to be told (generally by me) that massmutation and gift of chaos doesn't work on traitors and mutants (specifies marines in spell entry)

AMBS- My Latd stems from stuff people gave me in boxes and me not wanting to learn fantasy,( I just wish I'd been able to get my 2000 point skaven and undead armies back, I gave them away 15 years ago) My leaping are the nasty old dark elfs with capes (although at one stage I was thinking of painting a lot of gribblies with golden boots of speed, but I decided to put a tad more effort in, those that don't have capes I make quickish ones out of grey stuff) I consider my Latd my least attractive army, my mutant bosses are quite nicly put together (bits orc, bits cadian, bits greater demon of slannesh crab claw, bit vehicle upgrade, bit tyranid) but I was rushed and painted at night whilst my daughter was in my arms a year or so back, so my leaping look scolded yellow really need a dip and restart, (my thousand sons are very pretty, khorne are ok (but there are some which are just dry brushed with detail over the top.)If you need to peek click on pics in sig, but my latd... you'll think less of me..(have a pretty picture ready to wash you eyes out with after).

I really think a key feature of LATD is model count, not just for competetiveness, for your own sanity, I really had problems moving from a 30 model army up to a 100, sometimes the movement phase would last 15+ minutes, Not to mention effort and consistency painting (where I really fell down).My sig has listed them as semi retired for yonks, for above reasons, it now only comes out, when one of my group wants to try to fight a horde list and has a day off work.

[AMBS]

So really the heart of any LATD list is lots of mutants backed up by the odd traitor squad and their tanks.

Why not simply forgoe the traitors, take 3 defilers and some obliterator allies?

My main concern is the cost of leaping mutants. 12 points still feels painful.

[Killmaimburn]

1)Fluff defilers were commisioned by abaddon, theres not much chance of them turning up in the hands of a bunch of de evolved twists (I'm reading Eisenhorn). Without a considerable corrupt astrates presence.
2)Competitive, they cost less and are smaller vehicles, easier to obscure, althougth we all grumble about how atrocious traitors are, having a couple of min squads are a real thorn in the side. (I listed las in my army list, but quite frequently I'll use an autocannon (bretonnian cannon) and flamer (archer with gargoyle head mounted on weapon spewing chaos). Takes a few shots at the medium weight tanks and then as assualters run by ignoreing them, they ignite the flamer.Slowing an enemies advance as required.
Also as you mentioned 1 day the chaos codex will change, I find it easier just keeping stuff mostly from 1 or 2 books. (some people play LATD and also carry guard, Chaos, kroot mercs,+ more chapter approved and IA. inc the beta stuff -- thats just way too much for me to expect an opponent to understand)

Some people are very anti leaping,I'm just a vocal advocate, If they go, they have to be supported (mine by equally large squads and the distractions of the basi's and the gaurd) but you could use dogs or rough riders or infiltrating space marines with cc skills. If your taking leaping, your generally not going to be taking spawn or zombies or ironically MOT SM that can be 20" behind you (they are fine units, but they are going to leave your fast units high and dry , with your opponents an easy choice, you want your opponent to be feeling claustrophobic and always threatened by the thing closest to him, with dread of the thing behind it/ The alternative being 3 leman russes leading the charge with basic mutants following, which means no fast (except Rough Riders for counter assualt), spawn etc good)

BTW Just because I'm loud doesn't mean I'm right, people who play different shout out

[AMBS]

a 3 russ charge followed by billions of muties makes me lol.

[Krootman]

Im still happy I bought 15 of those mutant kits back during eot

[AMBS]

Killmaimburn.

what if I took X4 20 regular muties
then used the left over points for obliterators and chaos hounds?

think it'd work?

[Reece]

Lost and the Damned is by far my favorite Army.

I run 3 squads of 15 Leaping Mutants. I used to run 2 Slaneesh w/ +1S and Power Weapons but I started going more theme. Now, when I run them in tournies, I run a fist on the Boss and a fist on the Champ (all undiv) plus a couple icons. Approx 300 a squad with all the gear. Undiv is a MUST for me... I HATE it when I break from some a stupid roll and flee 2d6.

My basic layout:
3x Mutant Squads (see above)
2x 5 Sniper/Lascannon Traitors
1x 9 Flamers
2x 10 Furies
1x Hellhound
1x Leman Russ
1x 10 Sniper Kroot

If I want to be an @#$ (or in a tourney) I'll swap the Russ for a Bassie and take an IF Defiler. But I don't play tournies anymore and I stopped just-playing-to-win about 8mo ago. So... DON'T take those if your just in it for fun. I just felt I had to mention them cause they work.

The biggest drawback to my Army is transports. If my opponent has a bunch of transports I'll have trouble getting them out. The Mutants haul butt across the board and then start pooping Furies and Flamers. Both the Furies and Flamers aren't super dependent on scatter rolls since both are effective from 18+ inches away. If you're already in the lines you can scatter just about anywhere (not on the bad guys) and still get where you need to be. Everything else can support on the move or has the range to support. It may not look good on paper, but it works for me. It took me a while to make it work for me, but it really does fit my play style and tactics. Plus, it's a lot of fun to play.

Two tactics that I use (based on who I'm playing):
If it's Tau, Guard or any shooties, I'll just haul butt across the board poop daemons and support the muties with heavy fire from the tanks.

If it's a CC army I'll hold the Muties back and thin the enemy w/ the big guns. With an all cav assault it's a safe bet you'll get to charge first on the slightly depleted enemy.

If it's balanced, use your judgement and just play smart. Hehe... sorry, that's all I got.

[Reece]

Killmaimburn.

what if I took X4 20 regular muties
then used the left over points for obliterators and chaos hounds?

think it'd work?

I think it would, depending on who your playing and how you play. Your chances increase greatly as you attach Champs (Ld10) since your muties can't lead themselves for squat. You'd have to take lessons from a veteran foot slogging
Ork player though. You'd be slow with no armor but a lot guys and decent toughness. 80 of anything is not easy to kill.