Starting Warhammer...need advice!

[stormfalcon]

I've been playing 40K for about a year and want to start up warhammer. The first step (other than purchasing the rulebook) is army selection and here's where I could use the help. I've narrowed it down to three:

Bretonians (I used to be a medieval reinactor and I find their weapons, fluff, etc. really appealing).

Tomb Kings (As a huge fan of the movie "Army of Darkness" I'm enamored of the idea of ranks of skeletal warriors surging across the table - might even convert a Tomb King model into Bad Ash).

Orcs (These just look like fun).

Due to monetary limitations, I was planning on starting with a warband-size force. This would also give me a chance to get used to the rules and army before supersizing.

What I don't know much about are the strengths/weaknesses and playstyles of these three armies. Which one is better for a new player to start out with (and I do realize that due to the cost of an army that I want to start one that I will enjoy playing)? How critical are chariots for Tomb Kings and Orcs (not a big fan of chariots...just an aesthetic thing on my part...I prefer traditional cavalry)? Which armies are best for horde-style play (I prefer to have lots of models on the field...would a peasant- and men-at-arms-heavy Bretonian army work)?

Advice and suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance.

stormfalcon

[Ethereal Alpaca]

Tomb Kings are quite a hard army to play with, and rely quite heavily on their Incantations. And chariots feature prominantly, although it is possible to do an army without them, it goes against the fluff. Still, if you like a skeletal legion, they're perfect, and can be played horde-y quite well, since the enemy will be ountumbered by a fear-causing enemy.

Brets? Well, I have some choice things to say about them...but they would get me banned. Peasant heavy, hmm, I know that's been done, but I can't see it working that well.

O&G are mean to be very fun to play with, and chariots don't feature prominantly with them. Not the most reliable of armys, but definitely fun...

[Cpt. Drill]

If you like army of darkness i think the regular VC army would be alot better as it is more gothic....

and if you want a cool model for the army the BB skeleton wielding chainsaw is very cool!

[Warlord Queek]

GO ORCS...
They're really wonderful to play with and against. The only thing is, they're really unpredictable. They can be very devastating, but they can slaughter your own troops as well...
If you like knights and the medieval stuff, Brettonia would be perfect. However, they look kinda childish in their pink,purple, blue, red and yellow suits...
Tomb Kings is a bad choice for beginners in Warhammer Fantasy. You really need a lot of tactic and expertise to play them.

Anyway, just pick the orcs and gobbos

[stormfalcon]

Thanks for all of the input. After reading the posts and talking to some of the local 40K players I'm leaning heavily towards orcs and goblins. Now I just need the army book so I can start building a warband.

Any suggestions on tactics or army build?

stormfalcon

[strv]

for warband, and a army later. A box of orcs or two and a box of wolf riders. Maybe a bow of ight goblins to. That would be nuff for a warband plus a little more.

[Warlord Queek]

Just start with some orc boys (1 or 2 boxes) and some gobbos (minimal of 2 boxes). Then you should buy some sort of General for your troops (Orc boss, Big boss). Then get some more orcs and get some archery/artillery. Most important is assembling a vast horde of Orcs/Goblins with choppa's/handweapons

[nurgle_boy]

id say a good start with orcs and gobbos could be the battalion.

you get wolf riders, for cavalry, arrer boyz, for some support, 2 hand weapon boyz (easily pressed a savage orcs, with a little fur, otherwise they make good big'uns) a chariot, for some hittyness, and a big boss (make him on foot, and have a spare boar for scrtchbuilding another chariot with.

after that, you can choose a theme, and buy whatever.

they may be a little unpredictable, but thats the fun! just had a fanatic smash through you boar boyz? laugh! pump wagon crash into you black orcs? giggle like a snottie, and just lose a few!.

a[part from being fun, this approach really unnerves your opponent. you dont see them laughing when fanatics hit their ranks, but the fact you do, improves sportsmanship, and creeps them out.

a tip for you though. as O&G are so cheap, never leave home with an orc unit smaller than 25, or a gobbo unit smaller than 35. this includes black orcs and big uns, as against shooting, you can be whittled down and flee, before reaching the fight.

personaly, i take 30 savage orc biguns, and the unit is less thaan 400pts. a unit of the same number of chaos warriors costs almost 450, over that if theyre marked, and you can still take them on and beat them.

orc magic if fun as well. especially when you eadbutt the undead general twice in the first turn and he dies.

[Snoozer]

a tip for you though. as O&G are so cheap, never leave home with an orc unit smaller than 25, or a gobbo unit smaller than 35. this includes black orcs and big uns, as against shooting, you can be whittled down and flee, before reaching the fight.

Yes all my orc units are at least 24 (why 24, well because I only have 74 orcs, this makes my units 25, 25 and one 24).

but on the gobbo unit I don't agree, well it depends what it is for, if for fighting then minimal 30 gobbos, but if it is a speedbump then 20-25 is enough, it is even cheaper and because it's going to be sacreficed anyway so why bother with more it would just take up space...

And the batalion is quite a good start (I started with the starter set which is almost the same), but because error boys suck, I converted them into normal boys.

[nurgle_boy]

ah, i was looking at the gobbos as a fighting unit. speedbumps, or antispeedbumps (they die/run and get cut down, so as to get the enemy into a pursuit into fresh enemy on your spear units.) unit sizes should be 20-25 as you said.

i also converted my arrer boyz as shooting is for wussies like empire or S.A.D (both of which i have beaten in a massacre with orcs, i might add). orcs need combat, and lots of it, and arrer boyz can be converted to 2 hand weapon or choppa&shield easily by buying a box or 2 of boyz.

buy many boyz, youll need them. i have 80, and then theres the 100 odd gobbos, and the best bit is, it all fits into 3k! and thats with 6 bolt throwers, and 4 chariots, AND 2 lordss & 5 heros!

good old orcs&gobbos

[Etienne de Beaugard]

If you haven't done so, buy the Warhammer boxed game. The rulebook and orc minis included justify the cost. Find a new empire player who also bought the basic box. Swap your empire minis for his orcs and you have a good horde to start with.

O&G have far to many combinations that work well. Basically, just buy a unit, paint it, and add it to your army. Eventually, you will find some favorites. You'll also end up with many variant lists once your O&G horde has gotten really big.

In general O&G armies are infantry based, with large blocks of foosloggers forming the backbone of the army. War machines are notoriously unreliable. Boar cavalry are a bit slow, and wolf boyz don't pack quite enough punch.

[Gazak Blacktoof]

I would advise against the purchse of any tomb kings if you can't get a full sized army nearly immediately. I was completely disillusioned with my tomb kings until I started using them at 2000 points. Below 2000 points you can't get the magic you require to make the army viable as you'll generally need at least a king and 2 Liche priests. If you persist with tomb kings they are thoroughly rewarding and the epitomy of an elite army IMO, despite the low characteristic values. They can play hell with your opponent due to a combination of fear, incantations and some juicy magic items and abilities, and they have some very tough troops.

I seriously dislike bretonnians mostly because of pegasus knights but that's my own little problem. I've seen people posting on this and other forums who've said that bretonnains are almost unstopable at low points levels and I can easily see why. For this reason I'd advise against getting them too. Besides which you don't really learn a great deal about warhammer by using cavalry which are fairly intuitive in their use and in the case of bretonnians need relatively little in the way of support. The army list is so geared towards the use of guys on horses it offers very few incentives to make use of much else with the exception of guys on flying horses (see above).

Orcs and goblins are a fun army to use and have a wide variety of troops what they do lack is coordination. The army is quite capable of tearing itself apart without much assistance from your opponent. Fanatics, your shamans, rock lobbers, doom divers, giants, pump wagons and squigs can all meet out punishment to your own troops as well as the enemy's. If you want an army that does what you want it to, when you want it to, stear clear of greenskins, go get some nice shiny knights and imagine you're back in some cold, damp field, dressed up in tights and pretend you're reinacting battles again .

[stormfalcon]

Actually, I remember more battles fought in the middle of summer with high humidity and a hangover.

Back to the orcs, which are sounding better and more fun by the post. Onto some specific questions. Is it better to field your orcs with choppa and shield or choppa and hand weapon? Also, the jury seems to be out on the usefulness of arrer boys. I like diversity in my armies and can't help but think some level of ranged support will be useful. Keep 'em, ditch 'em, just use goblin archers?

Thanks again for the suggestions. You've all been a big help.

stormfalcon

[mooze]

orc arrer boyz fight just as well as any other orc and so you just take the shooting as a bonus (it's a huge composition boost in tourneys to have them)

as to cost, go on ebay, there are always people selling off the empire/orc main box set and you can amass a lot of two weapon orcs fast that way.with orcs you never get much of a save anyway so the extra attack is most worthwhile.I have all varieties of orcs and my first choice for core is always with add'l hw.

what's wrong with chariots? D6+1 str. 5 hits/ 2 str.5 boar attacks/3 str 4 orc with spear attacks (if you buy the ex. crewman) all at 86 points,what's not to love?

this past saturday I won a 500 pt. tourney at my gw store with orcs (won the wood elf battalion box , yay!)they can be a superb army although I personally don't use squigs,trolls,night gobbos, or wolf riders as these don't usually pull their weight. I prefer core heavy armies and basic orcs are great.

I also play bretts (and empire,dwarfs,chaos,beasts,and I used to have v.c. although I really disliked playing them due to the fact that if you exploit the fear rule well at all, then you win and it is no fun for anyone.Brettonians are great but you either win hugely or lose hugely and you generally know which by the end of turn two.I still like them though.

[mooze]

oh, by the way, if you take shield, lt. armor and choppa your save is still only 5+ in combat due to the fact that a choppa cannot be used to parry.

[Snoozer]

Okey I just about disagree with pretty much everything in that post (not the chariot part though).

First:

orc arrer boyz fight just as well as any other orc and so you just take the shooting as a bonus (it's a huge composition boost in tourneys to have them)

Al though they do fight as good as an normal orc, but you pay 2 points more for them and if you want light armor (which normal orcs have as base equipment) you need to pay even more.

so again, error boys suck IMO

as to cost, go on ebay, there are always people selling off the empire/orc main box set and you can amass a lot of two weapon orcs fast that way.with orcs you never get much of a save anyway so the extra attack is most worthwhile.I have all varieties of orcs and my first choice for core is always with add'l hw.

I have found that orcs do best with only a choppa and nothing more, if you take the additional hand weapon you lose the choppa rule and then they cost way too much , having more of them is always better than having less

On Big 'Uns I do use with additional hand weapons because they know how to use them and your allowed to "waste" some points on elite units.

but then again this is more of an taste question.

they can be a superb army although I personally don't use squigs,trolls,night gobbos, or wolf riders as these don't usually pull their weight.

I think the wolf riders are the best unit in the O&G army and without these I could not even think about winning. They have so many uses and they are soooo fast. You can use them for baiting for supporting (flank charges) for mage hunting and against warmachines (because O&G don't have much of anything else to that).

I like diversity in my armies and can't help but think some level of ranged support will be useful. Keep 'em, ditch 'em, just use goblin archers?

For ranged support we got warmachines, I always take at least 2 bolt trowers with me, its not like they cost too many points and they always do seem to find a heavily armored unit somewhere.

and then there is the rock lobber and goblin doom diver if you want more artillery.

The army is quite capable of tearing itself apart without much assistance from your opponent

This is very true but it only happens rarely that your whole army screws you, for me this has only happened once, my orcs never got to fighting (can someone say 3 turns of squabling ) my fanatics turned on me and my shaman blew up. Not very fun, but still very funny though.

but most of the time it's only something minor that happens, not many times your plan is totally screwed.

[nurgle_boy]

as said above, wolf riders are THE best part of the army book.


you can use them as fast, or heavy cav, and theyre cheap enough that when used heavy, you could take huge units. a unit of 50 (not as though youd take that many) costs less than 750pts. 50 chaos warriors... around 1000+

and the wolfies are better!

squigs are great! 2str5 attacks each, and the squig bomb fear factor. i mean, being able to charge into the enemy, and laugh as your unit breaks, and 10+ squigs bounce off and cause mayhem. they hit your own units, but so what? losing 1 or 2 orcs or gobos is nothing with your numbers.

as for long ranged support, the fact that you can have more artillery than any other army is great! in 2k, you could take 2 rock lobbas, 4 bolt throwers, and 2 doom divers, or 8 bolt throwers, and 2 doom divers.

lets see an artillery train match that!

as for archers, if you have arrer boy models lying around, you could line 'em up and see if they can hit, and theyle maybe get rid of a rank or cause a pani test, or you could do the same with gobbos.
night gtobbos with bows and fanatcis are good, they can shoot away, and then let the fanatics do their work.
arrer boyz also make great odyguards for warmachines as they can hold their ground in combat.

[Setomidor]

Im running a Artillery based O&G horde with 6 boltthrowers, a rock lobba and a doom diver... The boltthrowers have to kill about a single knight all game to get their points back, the rocklobba is as good as any other stonethrower and the doomdiver usually gets the job done aswell. The best thing about this army? The whole warmachine stuff is only 350 points leaving more then plenty of points for the rest of the army. Imho getting one unit of boys with choppas and another unit of biguns with spears / shields and the banner of butchery is a nice core for an army. Add a pair of (goblin?) chariots to that and you got yourself a really nice army.

a 1000 pts list could look something like:

25 orc boys choppas, command
20 biguns, shield spears,command noggs banner
2x 5 goblin wolfriders, spear, shield, musician
2 goblin chariots, extra crew, spears
24 nightgoblins, 4 netters, standard, 2 fanatics

Thats about 800 points of troops, leaving 200 for characters.

Good luck

//Seto

[mooze]

this last guy has a good point about an artillery heavy orc army.their stuff is good and as an added bonus, cheap as well.gobbo archers are a useful thing as well (*3pts. 16" range str 3 bs 3 ) a nasty way to use them in large battles, is a line of 20-30- night gobbo archers with 2-3 fanatics stretched across half your frontage, they just walk and shoot (maybe even occasionally killing something) and when charged, pop out the fanatics doing piles of hurt to your opponent (or don't even use fanatics, just make sure to state clearly and repetitively that they are NIGHT gobbos, wherein your opponent will just assume that you have them and stay far away)it's a useful bluff with night gobbos. in the event that you get charged, they will not stay, and in running off, clear the way for your units to charge next turn.

[stormfalcon]

It sounds like I've got a lot of options to try out to see what works best and fits my preference (whatever that turns out to be). It sounds like night goblins (either as archers or with spears) are the way to go (presumably because you can include fanatics and netters in the mix). In fact, is there any reason to use "normal" goblins over night goblins?

I'm leaning towards the idea of an orc core (chariots, boyz/big uns with choppa and shield or two hand weapons...still debating which would be the best option both tactically and aesthetically) backed by some war machines and shielded/supported by goblins (maybe two units of regular or night goblins with bows or spears, wolf riders).

Thoughts?