Warhammer Armies: Fishmen

[Falkman]

For the last year I've been working with this list whenever inspiration struck me, and at long last it has been finished.
I present to you Warhammer Armies: Fishmen, and hope that you guys will give some c&c on it, and perhaps even play some games with it

Army book can be downloaded here: Warhammer Armies: Fishmen

Big thanks to Avian for his "design a unit"-system, it has helped me tremendously.

[darkprincewilson]

Good work. There are only three things that I do not think fit specifically.

1) Crossbows. I do not think a unit from the sea would have bows. Some kind of thrown weapon maybe, but not bows.
2) The flyers. If I missed it forgive me, Are the flyers not fishmen but land-based allies of some sort?
3) Sting Ray Clusters. I cannot see sting rays outside the water at all.

I liked the crustacean swarms, the leviathan (I would model a giant turtle), the magic items and the lore of magic.

[Falkman]

Thanks for the comments, I'll try to answer your questions

1. The crossbows are actually some sort of harpoons, I just felt that it would be a waste of time to write rules for a weapon that would work exactly in the same way as a crossbow.

2. They are a variant of flying fish, just like the Valaan is a variant of "normal" fish.

3. Which is why they have such a ridiculously low movement rate.

I would love to see some people make up army lists from this, to see what people would take and stuff like that.

[lehesu]

I must confess that I have never thought of a fishmen army before, even though it is quite obvious in retrospect. I am delighted by the idea! Would it be too much to prevail upon you to fluff things out a bit and provide base sizes for the units?

[scarletsquig]

Well, the screamers are basically flying stingrays already, so I see nothing wrong with that.

I like the sound of the Leviathan - the first thing I thought of as soon as I saw this was "hope he added a Kraken".

I think these could be reasonably well modelled out of high elves, with the scale armour.

[Falkman]

I like the sound of the Leviathan - the first thing I thought of as soon as I saw this was "hope he added a Kraken".

I think these could be reasonably well modelled out of high elves, with the scale armour.

The beauty of the Leviathan is that it can be modelled in many different ways
You think of a Kraken, darkprincewilson imagined a giant turtle, and I myself think of it as a giant sea serpent.
High elves werent' exactly what I would think of, how do you figure you could make Fishmen out of them?
I have these models in mind: Komodons

I must confess that I have never thought of a fishmen army before, even though it is quite obvious in retrospect. I am delighted by the idea! Would it be too much to prevail upon you to fluff things out a bit and provide base sizes for the units?

Of course you can have the base sizes, here they are:

Heroes: 20mm.
Warriors, Crossbowmen, Court guard, Zealots, Wind riders, Stingray handlers, Doomhorn attendants: 20mm.
Crustacean swarms, Myrmidons, Stingrays: 40mm.
Lorber knights: 25x50mm.
Doomhorn: 50mm.
Leviathan: 50x100mm.

Regarding fluff: this is something I will work on, my dream is to make this into a full-blown army book with artwork, background, model section and all that, but that will take very long to do, as I'm the sole writer, and I have only a couple of friends that will help me with artwork, model conversions and such.

[Bortus]

I had the idea myself for a fishmen army several years ago and it's nice to see that somebody has put there own ideas out here. I am surprised by some of the similiar ideas we have had for this army list Falkman. Hats off to you I think you did a really good job here. Only thing is I wish we were friends because it would have been cool to throw ideas back and forth during the creation process.

[Falkman]

Thanks for those kind words Bortus
Any chance you wanna share your ideas on the subject?

[Bortus]

I'd love to share ideas with you. Let me dig up some of my old notes and I'll post someting here tomorrow.

[Alathir]

Nice list Falkman!!

I enjoyed reading it and I am considering fielding it in a friendly game against once of my friends soon enough

[theunwantedbeing]

Interesting....
You could simply not allow them to march unless within a watery feature.
I dont see why they should always have a shoreline as their side of the table,surely there would be occasions where an army beats them back to the shoreline and acts as a roadblock.

Your laviathan needs work for its aquatic assult rule,at the moment you havent stated which table edge it can appear from.....at the moment if it appears from any table edge your opponent is going to hate you.

Not that bad a list really,got bored reading it though....so didnt see anything abusive beyond the laviethan,so good so far ^_^

I'll have to re-look at the list when im more awake and give proper comments.
(I would have thought to make a list similar to the tomb kings list,ie no marching,bound item spells)

Oh one last little gripe.....you mentioned "impure winds of chaos" the chaos wind is infact very pure,you cant get a purer type of magic.

[Falkman]

They're quite agile these little buggers, of course they should be able to march.
The reason their table edge is a shoreline is because it wouldn't be any fun if they would all need to huddle upp in a little spot.
The Leviathan ruling was pointed out to me by a friend, and of course it's meant to come on from the Fishman player's edge, anything else would be horribly overpowered

Oh one last little gripe.....you mentioned "impure winds of chaos" the chaos wind is infact very pure,you cant get a purer type of magic.

The Fishmen don't see it that way

[unheilig]

This is actually very, very good.

Submitted for your consideration:

Dependent on Water is too severe, and badly named.
("Fish out of Water" would be a cute name), or simply "Children of the Sea" would be better.
They shouldn't take wounds. Try "Models or Units not within X inches of a water feature suffer stupidity", or "Models or Units not within X inches of a water feature suffer -1 Toughness". I like the stupidity myself.

Also, the Doomhorn should count as a water feature.

Special rule: Aquatic
Fishmen do not suffer movement penalties for moving through water based terrain features.
While in water based terrain features, Fishmen benefit from soft cover.
Furthermore, all Fishmen add +1 to their Movement while in water based terrain features.

Reconsider the last line. How often will +1M help you in a water feature? Try "Cannot be march blocked if starting movement in a water feature" or "Enemy Can only choose to Hold when charged by Fishmen charging out of a Water Feature" or something like that.


Special rule: Dwellers of the sea
The Fishmen always attack from the sea, raiding outposts and coastal towns.
To represent this, the edge of the Fishmen´s deployment zone is a shoreline,
and therefore counts as a watery terrain feature.

i would also note that Enemies cannot pursue fishmen off their back table edge, and will instead stop 1" from the edge if they would otherwise pursue off. (who knows, it could affect things once and awhile)

A trident can allow a shield, but two ranks doesn't seem right. maybe +1S like a halberd? +2S when charging while mounted. Lorber Knights should have tridents, not spears. Heavy Cav that can't wound isn't Heavy Cav.

on this vein, Tridents really should be used with nets. Consider giving trident units the netter rules as per goblins. Its almost like getting a shield but better, and more characterful. Imagine the lorber knights charging in, tossing nets, and then nailing the netted foes with tridents. VERY cool.

The Leviathan
Aquatic assault: The Leviathan is not deployed during the deployment phase, instead it will arrive in the Remaining moves phase of the Fishman player’s first turn, just as if it had pursued a unit off the table.

I think it should come on 3d6, to represent its lunge from out of the water. If it hits an enemy unit, treat it as a Pursuit into Fresh Enemy.

Lore of the Depths
I would lose the magic missle and give them "sea singing"... just like tree singing.

Idol of Water is neat, but a little weak. Crank that ward save to a 4+, or have the wizard able to maintain it and still cast other spells.

Tsunami: too powerful. try 1d6 hits... 2d6 if within 12" of a water feature (this makes Idol better if it isn't a normal RiP spell)

Torrential rain: War machines affected should only be able to fire on a 4+

[Bortus]

I would have posted this earlier Falkman but with the holiday and all...anyway here are just a few ideas, I do have more but here goes:

Man O War unit of Jellyfish type creatures with the flyer ability. Make them special choices with 5+ ward saves due to there gelatenous state being hard to kill. Poison attacks.

Sea Ucrhin type critters as a swarm core choice with leadership 10 unbreakable and poison attacks, WS 2 at strength 2 and give them the small rule.

Have a core choice weapons option as a Trident giving them the basic stats. as an Empire Spearman but with poison attacks! Also no attacks for second rank.

Obviously give them all the "Aquatic" ability.

Make Sea Hags or Sea Witches your shaman choices.

A Levaithus which would be a giant Sea Serpant that would be treated pretty much as a dragon when comparing abilities and points cost.

Basically what I've listed here are ideas for creating units so consider these, at least those with some appeal, to be templates for possibilities not absolutes you know like clay which has yet to be sculpted.

[eldiablito]

FYI, back in 2000 (or was it 2001?), Gav Thorpe came by my local GW store and a kid recommended something sorta similar. Gav's response to the kid wasn't very positive and could have been interpreted as condescending. ...If you have a White Dwarf from that time, you can even see his comments about the "Fishmen of Aquapolis".

So, not to say that it isn't a good idea, only that GW doesn't look like they'll take your ideas and run with them.

[Daredhnu]

@ eldiablito : so what if GW won't endorse this most of these projects are for the people who make them and their friends, the best reason to post them here is to make sure that you get the most feedback so you can balance it, not to get them published.

anyway i really like the rules so far i'll read them in more detail later when i have more time.

[Falkman]

So, not to say that it isn't a good idea, only that GW doesn't look like they'll take your ideas and run with them.

TBH, I couldn't care less about GW liking these ideas or not, I don't even think they are going to be reading them

unheilig: Those are some good ideas, unfortunately they are not what I wanted with the Fishmen.
We tested dependant on water in some games, and it is not that big of a liability at all, quite the contrary, I think I took that test once over the course of about 5 games.

Lorber knights aren't supposed to be heavyhitters, they are just supposed to bring a lot of attacks to bear.
This army doesn't have many heavy hitters, and that is intentionally, the Fishmen aren't generally a very strong, fighty race.
You have the Zealots, the Myrmidons and the Leviathan for combat nastiness.

The reason the Leviathan comes on from the water edge is to counter it's speed somewhat, and having it come on 3d6" would be quite a boost instead of a drawback

Regarding tridents: I think of them as quite long weapons, almost like spears, but with three tips rather than one. This explains why they ca attack in two ranks. The +1 save with shield is to represent both the Fismen blocking with their shields, but also the fact that it is quite easy to deflect/entangle weapons with the forklike weapon. And nets, no, that was the way gladiators fought in ancient Rome, the Fishmen don't fight anywhere near like that.

The +1" move from water is actually very useful, consider that it would make Myrmidons pursue 3d6 for example, and that it increases the charge/march range of any unit starting in water with 2".

I wouldn't say Tsunami is too powerful, it's like a Fireball spell (also 2d6 s4 hits) but with shorter range and a small bonus added on top, to compensate for the shorter reach.

The magic missile is weak, I know, but it's not supposed to be that hard.
And I do not, under any circumstance, want sea singing, this is not supposed to be a rip-off of the Wood elves

The torrential rain you're right about, it should affect war machines too, I will look into that.

Thanks for the comments and ideas, but keep in mind that I won't add any more units (sorry Bortus!) as I consider the list "finished", it just needs playtesting to balance it out.

[Bortus]

Falkman I was only presenting things that I had come up with not intending to replace things on your list. As a matter of fact I thought you were still trying ideas for troops. I had no idea you were settled on your choices already or I would have disregarded my own post. What it comes down to is you have your lists and I have mine so the Urchins stay!!! Ha, ha!!! We all have our own ideas and hurray for us I say. These army ideas are intended for play amongst our own friends and gaming groups so yeah who cares about GW and whether they want to publish things or not. Basically let's build what we want and revell in our own creativity. Besides knowing GW they would just take our ideas, tweak them to thier own devise and come up with thier own model creations which would invariably look nothing like our visions anyway.

[Falkman]

And some great ideas they were too, I'd like to see you develop them further

And isn't it fun coming up with your own stuff, even though it will never be widely shown or played, it is still fun to try to come up with new stuff that might fit into the Warhammer World.

[Bortus]

You know what is really is fun. I love trying to come up with different ideas and I love conversions on models. Things like these allow you to expand the Warhammer World beyond what it is. With me and my gaming group we have a heavy D&D background so when we create an army for example we'll name all the characters and even invent histories which are especially cool when dealing with a campaign one of which we are soon to start. Sure you can run characters from the army list and play them all with they're pre-made histories in tact but when you create your own backgrounds it gives your army a more personal feel.

Ok, I got slightly off track here but it's all about creativity so it's all relevant. An example of army creation is me and a friend of mine have been toying with the idea of an army based on bugs. Another idea I had was a Gnome army based on contraptions and unique war machines that don't always work! Heh, heh...I had some crazy ideas and who knows right? The point is for some of us, not all, there is a drive to expand this awesome game into something more from time to time and my opinion is that if it gets you excited about the hobby then go for it! Even those ideas that others jump on and criticize right away are held in high regard by me. I always appreciate the creative processes when it comes to the game no matter how strange it might seem.