Had my first game agaisnt the new skaven.

[Einholt]

Yea I think thats the key, it's not will I have to face people who will abuse the books its the fact that the books are written in a way that would allow it, there's always been loopholes but these are certainly no longer obscure they are giant gates to hell and the writer seems to be on the other side beckoning players to enter.

Hell my local GW is holding an event for the skaven, build the CHEESIEST list an win...... Yea i get its rats and cheese... haha..... no wonder their main customers are 12 year olds.

[yorch]

I don't know why many of you think the storm banner is underpriced... In 6th ed book it costed 75 points but it last more time, so it's more or less the same. I've used it sometimes and noone has said to me it was too powerful.

One of the best things skaven do best is shooting, and weapon teams, jezzails, PWG, WLC, warpstone stars... all get affected too by this banner 50% of the time. And yes, you can put it in your plague monks... but then they won't have the banner that let's them re-roll to hit and to-wound (just awesome... the turn you use it is just lethal). I think many people, will, like me, use stormvermin to carry it... and let's face it, no one used stormvermin before, so this would be a good thing


Magic... do you really think it has improved? Come on... we've lost storm daemon, the eyes of the horned one, bands of power, +2PD from the screaming bell, warpstones get 50% more expensive and our basic casters went up in points while the basic spell is nerfed being only D6 hits and more difficult to cast. Sure, the skaven lores are good, but we have no magic items to back it up, only 2 one use only scrolls, and one of them is extremely situational and expensive to take in an all-comers list. We have nothing to save us from miscast or get an additional spell. We have, and no one can deny it, the worst selection of magic items for casters... maybe toe-to-toe with bretonnia. If you take a look at the magic heavy army builds of other armies, they are so good not for having all casters (because this is really expensive points-wise), but for having a good selection of magic items.


Skavens have gained some very good things, and yes, I think the abomination is just too good, but we have lost many other things, too. The lack of cheap skirmishers really screws up one of the advantages of skaven... the hability to have 20 -25 units @2k points. Yes, you can use a lot of giant rats, but is not the same.

Overall, I think skaven are going to have the same power level... With 6th ed book you could have some pretty cheesy lists... Now you can do it again... they'll just be of other type. In general, we have lost some tactical flexibility (you can't rely on magic for tactics, as spells are random) but we have gained brute force (Doomwheel, abomination and censers).

It's not the kind of revision I expected, because it encourages not to use horde armies, but overall I am happy, as it would be a 2nd tier army, as they were in 6th ed, and that's very good. I could use them without feeling guilty... not like my daemons

PS: I won't use abominations... They are not skaveny for me... Doomwheels and maybe WLC all the way

[Slicktober]

Quote

I don't know why many of you think the storm banner is underpriced... In 6th ed book it costed 75 points but it last more time, so it's more or less the same. I've used it sometimes and noone has said to me it was too powerful.

Because the English army book does not say "One use only."
If you can start it every enemy turn, it is certainly underpriced.

Expect an errata though. GW is bad, but I don't see them letting this one slide.

[Einholt]

This is not going to be a Tier 2 army. It's not DoC but it is Top tier if you want it to be.

As far as rumors said Stormbanner does not affect Skaven Shooting.

The abom, w/e I'll let it sodomize your armies and then you can come back and discuss how to tactically beat it and see that every tactic short of a Blood Thirster should expect to fail rather then succeed. This stuff always comes up when people defend powerful things, Oh if you are good you should be able to handle it, it's like the thing is in a vacuum and theres always the assumption that you are facing an incompetent general controlling the abomination.

[Johnnyfrej]

Originally Posted by Slicktober

Expect an errata though. GW is bad, but I don't see them letting this one slide.

I don't know which GW you are talking about, I wouldn't be suprised if it takes them quite a while to FAQ the Skaven book. They haven't even FAQ'd the SW codex.

[yorch]

Originally Posted by Einholt

This is not going to be a Tier 2 army. It's not DoC but it is Top tier if you want it to be.

As far as rumors said Stormbanner does not affect Skaven Shooting.

The abom, w/e I'll let it sodomize your armies and then you can come back and discuss how to tactically beat it and see that every tactic short of a Blood Thirster should expect to fail rather then succeed. This stuff always comes up when people defend powerful things, Oh if you are good you should be able to handle it, it's like the thing is in a vacuum and theres always the assumption that you are facing an incompetent general controlling the abomination.

Storm banner affects skaven shooting. And it's NOT a rumor, I assure you. The one use only thing will be corrected too. Just too suspicious that in every book of any other language it's one use only.

For some of the reasons exposed in this thread, I don't think abomination is an awesome unit. Yes, maybe a bit underpriced, but a hydra is better for it's point cost.
One thing many of you don't realise is that you can't have it all. I suggest you to trying to make some amry lists before speaking.

For example:
A list with seer + bell in a 25 clanrat unit, 25 monks + furnace, 2 aboms and 2 units of 6 censers is already 1789,5 points, and you still have to field 2 core units and take magic banners and items. I will play against this list every day, and 95% of the times rape it brutally... and I am not warhammer's Napoleon...

[Slicktober]

Quote

As far as rumors said Stormbanner does not affect Skaven Shooting.

This is false.

The Stormbanners -2 to BS shooting affects all shooting, Skaven or not. So that's Jezzails, Globadiers, Ratling Guns, muskets, pistols, slings, throwing stars/Warpstone Stars all pretty much pooched.

The second effect however reads as such:

Quote

All nonmagical missile attacks that don’t use BS to hit their target need to roll a 4+ on a D6 before they can fire.

Since Warpfire Throwers, Poisoned Wind Mortars, Plague Catapults, Doomwheel ZZZaaap attacks, Warp Lightning Cannons and the magic items Doom Rocket, Brass Orb and Death Globe are all magical and don't use BS to hit, they are not affected. This is also why Screaming Skull Catapults, Dwarf cannons and stonethrowers with runes, Banshees and so on are not affected either.

[SeanDMon]

I almost picked Skaven. Almost. But then I saw Warriors of Chaos and decided to take a stab at the Slaanesh army I'd always wanted to do in 40K. I didn't try because I'd heard so many bad things about the new 40K Chaos Codex.

[Emeraldw]

Originally Posted by Slicktober

The second effect however reads as such:


Since Warpfire Throwers, Poisoned Wind Mortars, Plague Catapults, Doomwheel ZZZaaap attacks, Warp Lightning Cannons and the magic items Doom Rocket, Brass Orb and Death Globe are all magical and don't use BS to hit, they are not affected. This is also why Screaming Skull Catapults, Dwarf cannons and stonethrowers with runes, Banshees and so on are not affected either.

Wouldn't those be affected? They aren't magical missiles. According to the quote, it says any non magical missile must roll on a 4+. So those would be affected no?

@SeanDmon: Don't worry about that 40k codex. There are just as many people that love it as do hate it. Seriously, CSM are an awesome army and their book is great. If you want to chat about it more, send me a PM so we don't clog up the thread.

[Warlord Gnashgrod]

Exactly. Anything that works in the shooting phase is affected. The last edition of the Skaven book has the exact same wording for this rule, and it was eventually FAQ'd that it worked on anything done during the shooting phase. I see no reason for this to have been changed.

As for the one use only thing; it seems odd to me that it's absence is an error in the english version of the book when english is the designer's first language. Although it is possible.

[Ward.]

Originally Posted by Warlord Gnashgrod

As for the one use only thing; it seems odd to me that it's absence is an error in the English version of the book when English is the designer's first language. Although it is possible.

Actually it's a problem with the designer, as I'm not sure he's ever written anything else for fantasy (or actually plays it all that often, a bit like matt ward and the OnG/ daemons debacle).



As for skaven being a tier 1 army, not going to happen.

VC and daemons (the armies to beat) are both fear causing unbreakable armies, skaven just can't deal with that.
DE require us to take the storm banner (completely wasted points against DOC and VC) and either a bsb, storm vermin or give up the hatred banner on the plaguemonks (all suboptimal choices) to carry it.

Against high elves and lizardmen (two armies that will dominate us in the magic phase and who have access to terror) our numbers and monster slaying doomwheels should put us on even footing.

[Bard Harlock]

Originally Posted by Ward.

Against high elves and lizardmen (two armies that will dominate us in the magic phase and who have access to terror) our numbers and monster slaying doomwheels should put us on even footing.

That's how I saw it too. And to be honest, I think that's a great place to aim for in the future for new Army Books as well. It suits varying play-styles, varying levels of skill, varying tactics, and can result in all of the game outcomes depending on the opponent's build, skill, tactics, etc.

[fubukii]

Originally Posted by Ward.

Actually it's a problem with the designer, as I'm not sure he's ever written anything else for fantasy (or actually plays it all that often, a bit like matt ward and the OnG/ daemons debacle).



As for skaven being a tier 1 army, not going to happen.

VC and daemons (the armies to beat) are both fear causing unbreakable armies, skaven just can't deal with that.
DE require us to take the storm banner (completely wasted points against DOC and VC) and either a bsb, storm vermin or give up the hatred banner on the plaguemonks (all suboptimal choices) to carry it.

Against high elves and lizardmen (two armies that will dominate us in the magic phase and who have access to terror) our numbers and monster slaying doomwheels should put us on even footing.

skaven are for sure good enough to compete with the top armies I have played some games with the new rules and i will explain why, with my current experiences.

Skaven handle fear causers just fine, with a grey seer he grants units ld10, and most of our units will be at least ld8, minus ones that are extremely expendable and meant for redirecting ( slaves). Now in addition to that we have access to better ITP/frenzied units and much better hammer units. Allowing us to have the punch we need to destroy these UD/DOC units. (aboms/wheels/monks with furnance/PCB)

The storm banner is great vs both DE and daemons. the storm banner basically makes flamers shooting a waste of dice rolling. Most competitive tournament daemon lists have 1-2 units of these bad boys too.
Skaven are a very magical army, most good lists should probably be rocking 10pd and 6dd at the very least. Its pretty easy to get 12 and 7 dd too in a skaven army.

THe monster slaying doomwheels which you say put us on a even footing are what rocks doc so much. With the abundance of 2wound models and probably a greater daemon doomwheels will earn thier worth easily. Flesh hounds, fiends, blood crushers, Flamers all fall victum to the doom wheel fairly easily, and greater daemons should worry as well.

[TheMav80]

I hope you didn't actually mean 66 dispel dice.

[Slicktober]

Originally Posted by Warlord Gnashgrod

Exactly. Anything that works in the shooting phase is affected. The last edition of the Skaven book has the exact same wording for this rule, and it was eventually FAQ'd that it worked on anything done during the shooting phase. I see no reason for this to have been changed.

As for the one use only thing; it seems odd to me that it's absence is an error in the english version of the book when english is the designer's first language. Although it is possible.

Wrong. It doesn't say "nonmagic missile" it says nonmagical missile attack."

A Warp Lightning Cannon shot is a missile attack and it is magical. It is not subject to the Storm Banner.

[yorch]

Yes... Maybe It's corrected later... but in this case I don't think so. It says non magical missile attacks... so it's only wasted against VC. DoC get a big nerfing because remember that the banner also makes impossible to fly (no flying thirsters, screamers or furies) and flamers get a several reduction of their effectiveness... It's a very good banner, I've been using a BSB with 6th ed storm banner regularly since DoC came out of the box.

And fubukii, yes, I believe they are good enough to compete with the top tier armies, but still behind them. You don't have to be a very skilled player to play tough DoC or VC armies, and with some DE builds only a bit more (as they can have some very bad builds). And I'm convinced the first months skaven will do very well, like many other armies in the past due the lack of knowledge from the rival players. I remember HE owning the game for a month... later, everyone knew how to nail them

I think the powerlevel of the skaven book is fine. Above the average, but because there are still some un-updated books. My only fear are min-max players with censers (I don't want skavens to get a bad rep, as my DoC). I've started to see some competitive forums with lists like this:

2 x Dispel engineers
5 x 25 clanrats
5 x 20 slaves
6 x packs of minimun size rats
4 x 7 censers
2 x wheels

This list is 2k points and it's very tough if managed by a good skaven player... 293 minis, 2 terror causers, 22 units and 6 of them are pretty brutal in close combat and ITP. Like min-max with daemons, but with skaven... and it's sad (they are still beyond daemons, because daemons at 2k points can have good close combat, magic and shooting xD)

[Ward.]

Originally Posted by fubukii

Skaven are a very magical army, most good lists should probably be rocking 10pd and 6dd at the very least. Its pretty easy to get 12 and 7 dd too in a skaven army.

While I'm glad you've had good results with the book so far (my results told a similar story to be honest, had a harder match up against deamons though) I have to hear more on the above.
What exactly am I (the average skaven general) supposed to do with 12 powerdice against VC or daemons?

Our spell list isn't capable of racing VC in a raising war and skorch is the only spell that will reliably affect a plaguebunker.

Originally Posted by yorch

2 x Dispel engineers
5 x 25 clanrats
5 x 20 slaves
6 x packs of minimum size rats
4 x 7 censers
2 x wheels

That's pretty interesting, my all out tournament list would probably have 3 packs of minimum sized rats and 30 model units of clanrats with a few plague mortars thrown in for good measure.

[mrtn]

Originally Posted by Ward.

Our spell list isn't capable of racing VC in a raising war and skorch is the only spell that will reliably affect a plaguebunker.

How about Wither? Plaguebearers with T3 or T2 should be easier to deal with?

[fubukii]

we got some nice spells to help vs UD/Plague bunkers.

Posioned attack spell. When stacked 5+ posioned attacks, makes monks deal a metric ton of wounds.
Wither is good vs UD/bunkers more wounds the better = more dmg overal.
Plague rocks vs large units of undead. Esepcially if you consider wither.

[Kuroi]

Originally Posted by yorch

I think the powerlevel of the skaven book is fine. Above the average, but because there are still some un-updated books. My only fear are min-max players with censers (I don't want skavens to get a bad rep, as my DoC). I've started to see some competitive forums with lists like this:

2 x Dispel engineers
5 x 25 clanrats
5 x 20 slaves
6 x packs of minimun size rats
4 x 7 censers
2 x wheels

This list is 2k points and it's very tough if managed by a good skaven player... 293 minis, 2 terror causers, 22 units and 6 of them are pretty brutal in close combat and ITP. Like min-max with daemons, but with skaven... and it's sad (they are still beyond daemons, because daemons at 2k points can have good close combat, magic and shooting xD)

If anyone shows up with 293 minis, they better be painted and from the latest edition. Also, that list seems to be horribly boring to play with.....and alot of armies will have no problem smashing it apart <.<