Are the Dark Elves idiots? *spoilers*

[RobC]

Never assume a deeper reason than plot-induced stupidity.

[Lord-Caerolion]

Originally Posted by Lord_Crull

Then conquer and subjectate it's warriors as soon as possible. If you do not cover your own power base then you are not fit to become an Evil Overlord.

Malekith seems to take a very detached approach to ruling his nations, although he has a "one strike and you're out" policy. He wants to see how his generals and the Drachau's can deal with problems, instead of overseeing every detail. If a Drachau fails, the rest of Naggaroth comes in and destroys the problem, and the replacement has a very strong, graphic demonstration of what happens when you fail.

In this case, it was the role of the Drachau of Hag Graef to deal with Naggor, since Malekith seemed to have a non-agression pact with them. As we can see retrospectively, Hag Graef made the wrong decision with how to deal with Naggor's fight with them, and paid the price.

So it isn't that Malekith is a complete and utter retard, he's just a callous Darwinist that understands that the other 5 cities will be able to deal with 1 cities failure. Where one Drachau fails, it removes weakness from the chain of command. Plus, as others have mentioned, the Dark Elves don't seem to suffer a population problem like the High Elves do.

Of course, the other problem is that they seem to have implemented a "one city destroyed per book" policy from the third Darkblade book onwards... Seriously, Malus Darkblade isn't called Darkblade because his family doesn't like him, he's called Darkblade because he's Fantasy's version of Maugan Ra. If you see him, you'd better start running, because soon a plot device will appear, and obliterate your city. That, or he'll daemon-stab you.

[Condottiere]

With a reputation like that, he'd be less welcome than Groo.

[wamphyri101]

Id have to back the "idiot" side. It's the whole "lets live in a city where a few nights a year anyone out of their house after a certain time gets sacrificed"

I mean really! come on now. Anyone daft enough to live there is a tool.

And it is all down to Malkieth I recon. He must be the most unsuccessful character in Warhammer (except Voltan who rose to power, got beaten up, then assassinated...pointless!)

He tried to become phoenix king, failed, got burnt so badly he had to become Darth Vader, gets booted out of Ulthan, rallys countless armies to try and retake Ulthan and gets spank by anyone who turns up, and then gets beaten up by Twins.

He’s like a sulking child in the fluff also. If it wasn’t for Morathi putting out to Everyone he would probably be replaced by now because really, could anyone do a worse job?

[Lord_Crull]

Originally Posted by Lord-Caerolion

Malekith seems to take a very detached approach to ruling his nations, although he has a "one strike and you're out" policy. He wants to see how his generals and the Drachau's can deal with problems, instead of overseeing every detail. If a Drachau fails, the rest of Naggaroth comes in and destroys the problem, and the replacement has a very strong, graphic demonstration of what happens when you fail.

If he encourages infighting, then he will never conquer Ulthuan.

Originally Posted by Lord-Caerolion

In this case, it was the role of the Drachau of Hag Graef to deal with Naggor, since Malekith seemed to have a non-agression pact with them.

He never should have needed to make a non-agression pact with something so Minor as Naggor. Malekith should have had Shadowblade bring back Bale's head on a pike and then subjecate Naggor with the weight of his armies in preperation for actually useful military expeditions.

Originally Posted by Lord-Caerolion

So it isn't that Malekith is a complete and utter retard, he's just a callous Darwinist that understands that the other 5 cities will be able to deal with 1 cities failure. Where one Drachau fails, it removes weakness from the chain of command.

There should have never been a problem in the first place. their should have never been a wildcard city with a Male sorceror in the first place.

Originally Posted by Lord-Caerolion

Plus, as others have mentioned, the Dark Elves don't seem to suffer a population problem like the High Elves do.

Yes, because Dark Elves who are involved in almost constant raiding, civil warfare, battles against the Chaos from the North, Death Night, and living in a cold barren land somehow produce faster than Ulthuan who is far more peaceful and stable in a more fertile resource base and extensive trading connections.

No offense to you but that peice of fluff is ridiculous. Unless the Dark Elves has evolved a faster method of reproduction then it makes little sense as to why they reproduce faster than the High Elves. (And don't give me that HE are prudes, I've seen pleasure slaves in Giantslayer and other sexual imlications in Defenders of Ulthuan)

[Lord-Caerolion]

Originally Posted by Lord_Crull

No offense to you but that peice of fluff is ridiculous. Unless the Dark Elves has evolved a faster method of reproduction then it makes little sense as to why they reproduce faster than the High Elves. (And don't give me that HE are prudes, I've seen pleasure slaves in Giantslayer and other sexual imlications in Defenders of Ulthuan)

Hey, I never said the fluff made sense, only that the Dark Elves seem to have the numbers to keep up such a lifestyle without any massive hindrance, while the High Elves take much less risk, yet we always hear how few of them there are.

As I've said, take most stuff in the Darkblade books revolving plot with a grain of salt, although a few bags might be better. They've already shown they're willing to take massive liberties with plot, to the extent that apparently the Warpsword of Khaine is the sword Aenarion used.

Personally, I go for a middleground when it comes to Dark Elf background. Not as stupid as Darkblade with letting potential enemies free to sit around to the North, but keeping the backstabbiness, still limiting it to occuring very rarely though.


As for the Death Night thing though, a Household can "donate" slaves in order to be passed over completely by the Witch Elves, so it isn't too dangerous. Just don't go outside, and pay your taxes, and you'll be perfectly fine. Anyone stupid enough to go outside deserves it, and Malekith takes his taxes very seriously, as does the Temple of Khaine.

[Drasanil]

Malus Darkblade = Drow wannabee, 'nuff said.

Although the story behind invasion, was a continuation of the awful piece of backround where that came out in WD when Eltharion and Shadowblades models were released. In it Eltharion and his amry invade Naggaroth and manage to fight off an army three times their size, while Malekith just flies around the battle field doing nothing.

I get the impression Mike Lee tried to put some explannation behind the previous story's plot-induced stupidity. Basically Malekith let them win order to not only kill off a cabal of traitors, but also in order to trick them into thinking Naggaroth was far more vulnerable than it really was. Basicly he learned from his previous mistakes of invading Ulthuan, and wants to trick the High Elves into letting themselves get bled dry on the shores of Naggaroth, instead of wasting his resources in an endless guerilla war in Ulthuan.

PS: The time of legends book Malekith seems to give better idea of what dark elves are/will be like.

[Condottiere]

I'd hate to think the Dark Elves present circle of self-inflicted violence is due to the continuing curse of the House of Aenarion.

[Lord_Crull]

Originally Posted by Drasanil

Malus Darkblade = Drow wannabee, 'nuff said.

Although the story behind invasion, was a continuation of the awful piece of backround where that came out in WD when Eltharion and Shadowblades models were released. In it Eltharion and his amry invade Naggaroth and manage to fight off an army three times their size, while Malekith just flies around the battle field doing nothing.

I get the impression Mike Lee tried to put some explannation behind the previous story's plot-induced stupidity. Basically Malekith let them win order to not only kill off a cabal of traitors, but also in order to trick them into thinking Naggaroth was far more vulnerable than it really was. Basicly he learned from his previous mistakes of invading Ulthuan, and wants to trick the High Elves into letting themselves get bled dry on the shores of Naggaroth, instead of wasting his resources in an endless guerilla war in Ulthuan.

Thank you, when taken in that context Mike Lee's plot suddenly makes much more sense, having to work with previous PIS. But the whole plot was stupid anyway.

But does everyone agree that if Malekith followed the Evil Overlord List he would have conquered Ulthuan by now?

[Drasanil]

Originally Posted by Lord_Crull

But does everyone agree that if Malekith followed the Evil Overlord List he would have conquered Ulthuan by now?

Yes, and the world would be a much better place for it too

*Considers petition to have GW send a copy of the list to Malekith.*

[EvC]

Originally Posted by Drasanil

I get the impression Mike Lee tried to put some explannation behind the previous story's plot-induced stupidity. Basically Malekith let them win order to not only kill off a cabal of traitors, but also in order to trick them into thinking Naggaroth was far more vulnerable than it really was.

This also might be followed up in Defenders of Ulthuan, when a survivor from the raid

Spoiler (Highlight to read)

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is used as a way of bringing about a Daemonic incursion to the very Tower of Hoeth itself

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although I fear I am giving these authors far too much credit.

[Allen]

Originally Posted by Lord_Crull

Yes, because Dark Elves who are involved in almost constant raiding, civil warfare, battles against the Chaos from the North, Death Night, and living in a cold barren land somehow produce faster than Ulthuan who is far more peaceful and stable in a more fertile resource base and extensive trading connections.

According to official background, High Elves have population issues. Dark Elves does not have such problems.

So, according to fluff...yep. Dark Elves breed faster than High Elves. Not a surprise, if I may add: long, dark and cold nights plus scantly clad, depraved females...so, yeah.

Quote

No offense to you but that peice of fluff is ridiculous. Unless the Dark Elves has evolved a faster method of reproduction then it makes little sense as to why they reproduce faster than the High Elves. (And don't give me that HE are prudes, I've seen pleasure slaves in Giantslayer and other sexual imlications in Defenders of Ulthuan)

According to GW fluff Dark Elves are pretty numerous, and don't have problems replacing battlefield losses. It's not some random guy fan-theory, it's official canon.

[Lord_Crull]

Originally Posted by Allen

According to official background, High Elves have population issues. Dark Elves does not have such problems.

Cite this please. (With quotes if possible) I have never seen the claim with Dark Elves.

Originally Posted by Allen

So, according to fluff...yep. Dark Elves breed faster than High Elves. Not a surprise, if I may add: long, dark and cold nights plus scantly clad, depraved females...so, yeah.

That's nice, now add constant battle losses plus inter-fighting and lack of food from a barren place needed to sustaint a population and young. Then add the slow maturation times of the Elves. Plus we have sources that the High Elves do engage in much sexual activity. (Defenders of Ulthuan, Giantslayer)

Originally Posted by Allen

According to GW fluff Dark Elves are pretty numerous, and don't have problems replacing battlefield losses. It's not some random guy fan-theory, it's official canon.

Proof and Quotes please, never seen this.

[Lijacote]

The low, low price of Dark Elf Warriors is proof enough!

[Condottiere]

There are times when I think Dark Elves qualify for Life is Cheap.

There's an assumption that High Elves are dying out and the Dark Elves are multiplying like bunnies, though this could be due to some obscure fluff and groupthink; I really don't want to go and look this up.

[Pacorko]

Originally Posted by Lord_Crull

No offense to you but that peice of fluff is ridiculous. Unless the Dark Elves has evolved a faster method of reproduction then it makes little sense as to why they reproduce faster than the High Elves. (And don't give me that HE are prudes, I've seen pleasure slaves in Giantslayer and other sexual imlications in Defenders of Ulthuan)

Maybe not prude, which I find idiotic as well, but truly mules which is frightening in its own right?

Maybe the amount of sterile newborn among High elves is rising due to --add stupid fluff/plot device.

Or it all really is just stupid writing aiming to make the typical "doomed race" seem cool and damned be conflicting images and past stories.

I tried to read through the first Mallus book. Not even halfway through the tepid lackluster, I just switched to rereading Gotrek & Felix Onmibus II--which is yet another GW/BL stupidity/contradiction. If it were the onmibus EVERYTHING would be in it.

My take it's not that the Dark Elves are idiots. It's just the writers and editors who are, and that this particular story is really a smelly hiccup by a alcohol-ladden mind: Not really deserving of anyone paying mind, unless to stay clearly away from the stinker.

[RobC]

Originally Posted by Pacorko

which is yet another GW/BL stupidity/contradiction. If it were the onmibus EVERYTHING would be in it.

...and the book would be several thousand pages long, and not yet published, because the Gotrek and Felix books keep on coming.

Seriously though, the word omnibus is used to describe books containing collections of previously separate books. It's not as though BL coined the term.

[MercuryLamp]

Malekith is, frankly, a pathetic individual as well as a poor ruler. He's got this society based around survival of the fittest even though he's sustained by magical skin-grafted armor and presumably the cauldron of blood.

Malekith's strategy to avoid being called to task for his paranoia and multiple failed invasions is to constantly keep the Dark Elves fighting amongst each other.

Logical fluff would make the Dark Elves more Machiavellian than sociopathic and reckless.

[Condottiere]

Social norm is basically Darwinian in a fight over resources and position in what appears to be a zero-sum game. The alternative seems to be getting the stuff from a non-Druchii.

Since there aren't mass incursions of Dark Elves descending upon the Old World and looting the place wholesale, there must be substantial risks involved deterring the meeker Dark Elves, moreso than just attempting to survive in Naggaroth.

[Pacorko]

Originally Posted by RobC

...and the book would be several thousand pages long, and not yet published, because the Gotrek and Felix books keep on coming.

You got a point there!

Originally Posted by RobC

Seriously though, the word omnibus is used to describe books containing collections of previously separate books. It's not as though BL coined the term.

I know, I know. It is a fairly "modern" use of the term by the publishing world, all in a yet another MKT scam to make you people buy "cool stuff" with intriguing names.

But I insist, omnibii are collections of all the tomes in a particular subject.

I for one, just love books that are 600+ pages long, be it short stories or novellas and novels in a compedium, as I tend to devour books pretty quickly and just love big, fat books in general.

Now, to stay on topic...

I believe the whole "barren, cold waste that is Naggaroth" is a self-destroying statement due to the fact that throughout GW's grandiose piling of plot contradictions to "modernize" what-once-were the Chaos Elves, the land had never been decreed as an arid wasteland, just a bitter-cold one. I mean, if you see the map of the "Old World", Naggaroth is Canada/New England/upstate New York--and that also makes us Mexicans and the rest of Latin America... either lizards and/or frogs.

If we follow the "bleak, barren, baleful land of the evil, depraved, soulless dark elves" argument, and question ourselves how come they have not disappeared given the lack of resources before adding their constant culling and internecine feuding...

We would have to come to the conclusion that the Chaos Wastes would long have been but a footnote on the history of the Old World as this place was nothing but a polar casket even before the crazy magics and miracles and hellish landscapes. That right. It was the OW's ice beanie. So, all the "incredibly powerful" marauding tribes would have the same problems referring to the scarcity of resources. Yet, we have... wot? Fassands of 'em? Seriously, its like 20 tribes--at the very least*--that are tied to this place.

My take? Naggaroth is not just barren land under ice, it has a whole and varied ecosystem in and of itself, and the Druchii eat (and are eaten by) black dragons, hydras, manticores, harpies, sea dragons, nasty sea-thingies, nasty cold-forest thingies, and if we are to believe that food is really that scarce, I am sure they would dinner on their slaves, their neighbours, their young, their spouses...

So, no. Not idiots. Maybe, prone to Kwashiorkor and Kuru, but not idiotic per sé.. well maybe those hillbillies at Naggor.

* No, I'm not going to stand up, go to the bookshelf, pick the WoC army book, open it and count them all... I'm just painting a Cav army for a friend, thank you, very much.