2 Rules Queries.

[Paraelix]

Tendrils of Tzeentch- States you may reroll a single power/dispel dice... But doesn't stipulate it has to be yours... Can I reroll an opponents dice? To prevent Irresistible or force miscast?

Secondly, a friend was trying to argue today that a dwarf cannon with Rune of Reloading could move and fire, as the rune stipulates it may always fire if 1 crew member is still alive. Can it? 3" isn't much but could fix LoS issues...

Cheers for help, apologies if the answers are blatantly obvious (I don't have my Rulebook with me)

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Yeah, those are both just sort of in the category of "GW just writes things that way."

Tendrils: You will break something like 1/2 of the game's items and special abilities if you expect them to be that specific about who they apply to.

Rune of Reloading: This is one of my biggest pet peeves with GW rules writing. They cannot for the life of them write exceptions correctly. They frequently write narrow exceptions in broad terms.

[wilsongrahams]

Originally Posted by Paraelix

Tendrils of Tzeentch- States you may reroll a single power/dispel dice... But doesn't stipulate it has to be yours... Can I reroll an opponents dice? To prevent Irresistible or force miscast?

Secondly, a friend was trying to argue today that a dwarf cannon with Rune of Reloading could move and fire, as the rune stipulates it may always fire if 1 crew member is still alive. Can it? 3" isn't much but could fix LoS issues...

Cheers for help, apologies if the answers are blatantly obvious (I don't have my Rulebook with me)

Hi, can't answer the first, but for the reloading, this rule is obviously only aimed at being able to reload due to having only one crew member left and nothing to do with moving AND shooting, and so I would say no due to common sense. When something says ALWAYS, GW forget that this is often contradictory to other ALWAYS items. They should have said, may fire every turn and no test etc instead. Does anyone else agree here or do you like the ALWAYS wording here?

[Paraelix]

I stated to the guy that if he modelled a suitably buff dwarf lugging the cannon around over his head with a firing string that I'd allow it... But until then, no.

I think for Tendrils there may be a rule somewhere preventing you rolling your opponents dice... But like I said, the book is elsewhere.

[Warp-Juicer]

I believe the idea behind the Tendrils is that he can reroll 1 power dice he rolls, and one dispel dice he rolls. I was going over this with someone and its somewhere in the wording of the mutation that indicates that it has to be a dice you rolled to begin with.

I saw that too and began salivating...would of really made DPs worth it.

[tarrasque]

you can only rerool your own dice.
or froce to opponent to reroll his

[T10]

Tendrils of Tzeentch refers to the character re-rolling the dice. It is therefore limited to attempts made by the character to cast and dispel.

The Rune of Reloading: In my opinion, you choose to either move or shoot with the warmachine. Misfires and loss of crew will reduce your rate of fire, which appears to be what the Rune is intended to improve. I really can't come up with a better counter-argument.

-T10

[theunwantedbeing]

Rune of Reloading
"the machine can shoot every turn, as long as there is at least one crewmen left, even if the machine rolled a misfire on the previous turn".

States nothing about being able to move and shoot, so we assume that it still cannot move and shoot.

[T10]

Originally Posted by theunwantedbeing

States nothing about being able to move and shoot, so we assume that it still cannot move and shoot.

By "we" I take it you mean yourself and your gaming group.

-T10

[theunwantedbeing]

No I mean we as in everyone who is thinking logically about how to understand the rule.

[uberbleed]

tendril of Tzeench once per player turn you can force him to reroll a power or dispell dice, than again in your turn to do the same

[Paraelix]

Originally Posted by T10

Tendrils of Tzeentch refers to the character re-rolling the dice. It is therefore limited to attempts made by the character to cast and dispel.

-T10

Nothing limits it to his own dice. But the way I see it, it has to be your own dice. So he can change the casting roll of another wizard in your army, just not an enemy. (but you can reroll a dice in a dispel attempt you make)

[Nurgling Chieftain]

"The character may..." limits it to his own dice, IMO.

[Askil the Undecided]

Both of these conform to sacred rule 1 of reading GW rules

"If it doesn't say you can... you can't."

It's simple common sense.

so:

Tendrils:

Quote

"the character may re-roll a single power or dispel dice per player turn."

It specifically states the character with the gift is the one who may re-roll and says nothing of the opponent, forcing them to re-roll or allowing anyone else to use the benefits of the gift.

If anything the tendrils last sentance is the tricky one.

Quote

[it may] prevent a Miscast, cause irresistable force, or cause a dispel attempt to pass or fail automatically.

Now the dispel part there may get a few people confused as it didn't catch t immediately but it refers directly to the dice results, not simply being able to auto dispel once a turn.

[T10]

Originally Posted by theunwantedbeing

No I mean we as in everyone who is thinking logically about how to understand the rule.

The description of the rune is pretty concise.

"The war machine can shoot every turn, as long as there is at least one crewman left, even if the machine has rolled a Misfire in the previous turn."

The reference to the Misfire is either an example or a condition.

• If it's an example then the rune overrides all "may not shoot" conditions.
• If it's a condition then the rune only comes into play when the warmachine is required to miss a turn due to Misfire.

It sounds like an example to me.

Personally I rate the rune's description vague enough to warrant a house rule, and my house rule is that it only applies when the warmachine would need to miss a turn due to loss of crew or Misfires.

But I don't try to fool myself into believing that the rule is perfectly clear.

-T10

[Askil the Undecided]

Originally Posted by T10

The description of the rune is pretty concise.

"The war machine can shoot every turn, as long as there is at least one crewman left, even if the machine has rolled a Misfire in the previous turn."

The reference to the Misfire is either an example or a condition.

• If it's an example then the rune overrides all "may not shoot" conditions.
• If it's a condition then the rune only comes into play when the warmachine is required to miss a turn due to Misfire.

It sounds like an example to me.

Personally I rate the rune's description vague enough to warrant a house rule, and my house rule is that it only applies when the warmachine would need to miss a turn due to loss of crew or Misfires.

But I don't try to fool myself into believing that the rule is perfectly clear.

-T10

Sounds like you definition of example could use some work for irony's sake here's an example.

Mammals produce milk to feed their young, who are born live.[example-->] Even aquatic mammals like whales do this.[<-- example]

I'm a mammal but I don't produce milk because I'm a bloke, also the platypus lays eggs.

An example is a specific demonstration of something it is not without requirement for quantification.

Thus citing a single unrelated specific example doesn't mean all other questions are answered.

[T10]

Originally Posted by Askil the Undecided

Sounds like you definition of example could use some work for irony's sake here's an example.

Mammals produce milk to feed their young, who are born live.[example-->] Even aquatic mammals like whales do this.[<-- example]

I'm a mammal but I don't produce milk because I'm a bloke, also the platypus lays eggs.

An example is a specific demonstration of something it is not without requirement for quantification.

Thus citing a single unrelated specific example doesn't mean all other questions are answered.

How putting those typing skills to use and hack out an analogy that is in any way similar.

All warmachines that can receive the Rune of Reloading have the ability to shoot. Therefore there are no "blokes" (warmachine subtype) that "don't produce milk" (don't shoot).

Even so my original statement regarding "examples" has nothing to do with milk, eggs, blokes, whales or platypodes. I suggest you read it again.


-T10

[Askil the Undecided]

I'll think you'll find I was defining the term "example" I chose one that was a bit off the wall to provide emphasis.

For a start not all war machines cannot move and shoot generally. The "bloke" if you will.

If this rather important part of the rules was to change wouldn't they mention it?

The Rune of reloading is 10 points when everything but upgrading to burning attacks is 20+ points. Somewhat indicative that it's not game-breakingly powerful?

[acsmedic]

Read my signature. that sums it up. it does not say you can so you cant for either question.

[T10]

That's great, but the Rune of Reloading actually states that you can do something, but people want to tag on exception onto this. So running off to Jervis isn't really solving anything.

-T10