Tau Seeker Missile questions.

[Frozen Yakman]

I'm not entirely sure when you're supposed to launch Seeker Missiles. Is it during the same shooting phase as the unit that fired the marker lights? During the shooting phase of the unit that has the seeker missile mounted on it? Is there a limit to how many missiles can be fired? Say for example you had a Piranha squad with 5 Piranhas w/ 2 Seeker each. If you somehow got 10 marker light hits could you fire all 10 seekers during the same shooting phase?

[Culven]

Your question is a little confusing since units don't have individual shooting phases. However, I think you are asking if the Seeker Missile are resolved at the same time as the firing by the unit with the Markerlights. The answer is "no". The unit using Markerlights will fire, completely resolving the hits for the Markerlights as well as the results of any other weapons being fired. At any time after that, during your own shooting phase, you may fire Seeker Missiles. Launching Seekers doesn't count as the vehicle firing them in any way. The only limit to the number that can be fired is the number of Markerlight hits the player wishes to spend to launch them.

[starlight]

...and the number of Seeker Missiles available. Unlike regular weapons, they have finite quantities.

The answer to your last question is *yes*.

As noted by Culven, there is only one *Shooting Phase* per Turn (for you) and all Seekers that you wish to shoot that Turn must have a Marker Light token already in play for them to home in on during that Shooting Phase. Markerlights should be amongst the first weapons you fire every turn...

[Asi the Red]

Originally Posted by Culven

At any time after that, during your own shooting phase, you may fire Seeker Missiles.

This isn't correct (IMO), though it is GaP (game as played) for most Tau players (myself and our other Tau commander included).

Originally Posted by C:TE, p. 29, Markerlight sidebar

Counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau...firing at the 'marked' unit. Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined.

Originally Posted by bullet point one

To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit...

After a unit is marked every Tau unit that fires at the marked unit can use one, and only one, mark to fire a Seeker at the unit (in addition to whatever else they use the marks for).

It's worth throwing out there, that no-one I've ever played or watched play has done it this way... but that's how it reads to me.

[starlight]

Actually, no.

Quote

Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined.

...To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit...

So every counter gives you the ability to fire one Seeker missile if you choose to use that capability. If you have ten Markerlight hits, you can fire ten Seeker Missiles.

This is supported by the Skyray having two Networked Markerlights and being specifically noted as being able to fire two Seeker Missiles, potentially at separate targets (because of other upgrades).

You must have a separate Markerlight hit/token for every Seeker Missile, but if you do you can fire multiple Seeker Missiles.

[Asi the Red]

Right. But you can still only spend marks on the marked unit when other Tau units fire at that unit. You can't have a unit of Pathfinders mark a target then immediately fire off seekers, or leave marks on a unit until you're done with all other shooting and then say "OK, spending these leftover marks to shoot Seekers." You can only spend them when "subsequent" Tau fire at the marked unit.

[Culven]

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

Right. But you can still only spend marks on the marked unit when other Tau units fire at that unit. You can't have a unit of Pathfinders mark a target then immediately fire off seekers, or leave marks on a unit until you're done with all other shooting and then say "OK, spending these leftover marks to shoot Seekers." You can only spend them when "subsequent" Tau fire at the marked unit.

I don't follow. You seem to be claiming that Markerlight marks can be used by units firing after the unit which fired the markerlights, but then you also seem to contradict it by stating that one "can't have a unit of Pathfinders mark a target then immediately fire off seekers, or leave marks on a unit until you're done with all other shooting and then say 'OK, spending these leftover marks to shoot Seekers.'" Are you claiming that one cannot use Markerlight marks left at the end of the turn to fire seekers? Are you claiming that Markerlight hits can't be used immediately after the unit with the Markerlights has fired?

[Dyrnwyn]

He's claiming that Markerlight tokens may only be expended when another Tau unit fires - including firing seeker missiles. I.e. You've marked some Marines, but you can't simply choose to fire seekers at them, you have to have a another unit fire at them, which then allows tokens to be spent, and only then can you fire seekers. So if you reached the end of your shooting phase and still had Markerlight tokens left, you would be unable to use them as a unit firing at the Marked unit is the trigger that allows the expenditure of the tokens.

I don't agree, but this is what I understand Asi's argument to be.

[Culven]

Interesting. However, I will wait until Asi clarifies before I comment.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

My technical reading of the relevant rules leads me to the following conclusion:

Seeker missiles are fired when the vehicle carrying them takes its turn to fire. It may do so even if shaken, stunned, firing at a different target, out of LOS, or moving too far, all of which would normally prevent it from shooting at the marked target, but all of which are explicitly allowed when firing the seeker missile.

[Asi the Red]

OK, back in control of my computer...
@Culven: Yes to both, thats exactly what I'm claiming.
@Dyrnwyn: That's exactly what I'm saying.

Go to p.29, the sidebar about Markerlights. I quoted the relevant parts above, but I'll try to clear up what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Markerlight sidebar

Counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau units...firing at the marked unit.

Emphasis mine. Here's what would be the crux of my argument. Say a unit of pathfinders have marked a squad of marines. Common practice is that if you want to fire Seekers at those marines that you simply remove however many marks you want to use to fire Seekers and roll to hit.
That contradicts the above, as no subsequent Tau is firing at those marines.

To adhere to the above, pathfinders would mark, then you'd declare that something else was shooting at those marines and how many marks you're expending in total, and what those marks are being used for i.e. two marks for Seekers, two to raise BS, one to ignore Night Fight.

I'll keep going:

Originally Posted by Markerlight Sidebar

Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined.

Emphasis mine again. Same example as above:
Say a unit of pathfinders have marked a squad of marines. Common practice is that if you want to fire Seekers at those marines that you simply remove however many marks you want to use to fire Seekers and roll to hit.
Question: Who is the firing unit in this example?
It's not the Pathfinders, they've already finished their firing. It has to be a "subsequently firing Tau unit".

My example from above: Pathfinders mark marines. Fire Warriors declare they're going to shoot the marines. You declare they will expend 5 marks: 2 to launch Seekers, 2 to raise their BS, and one to ignore the Night Fight rule.
Question: Who is the firing unit? The Fire Warriors.

@Nurgling Chieftain: A brief response because I'm about to lose control of my computer again (darn family...).
1. Are you implying that units that aren't vehicles cannot expend marks to fire seekers, i.e. taking the first bullet point in the markerlight sidebar to the extreme?
2. You seem to be referencing the section of the vehicle armoury on page 31 that talks about seeker missiles. If so, how do you come to that conclusion when you take the following into account:

Originally Posted by p. 31, Seeker Missiles

Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself.

[Culven]

OK. I think I see where you are going with this. By RaW, it would seem that the unit launching the Seeker Missiles needs to be firing at the unit that was previously marked. The prevaling GaP seems to be that the vehicle isn't actually firing the Seeker Missiles, which goes against RaW. I will need to read the Tau codex and the Tau Empire codex when I return home; however, I think that there may be an issue with the TE wording being slightly out of alignment with the Tau codex wording which has led to players addressing the launching of the Seekers in a manner not consistant with strict RaW.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Quote

1. Are you implying that units that aren't vehicles cannot expend marks to fire seekers, i.e. taking the first bullet point in the markerlight sidebar to the extreme?

That's not "to the extreme", that's what it says.

Quote

2. You seem to be referencing the section of the vehicle armoury on page 31 that talks about seeker missiles. If so, how do you come to that conclusion when you take the following into account:

If that section is not merely fluff text, then it destroys your entire argument, as it states in no uncertain terms that it is the markerlight user that calls in the seeker missile. Interestingly, that is GaP and it is what you're primarily arguing against in this thread. I find it rather weird that you'd quote a portion of it in response to my interpretation. It's crystal clear that in fluff terms the markerlight user who paints the target calls in the missile. The rules, as you've pointed out, contradict that fluff. That section goes on to state that it occurs as described in the markerlight section, so it's clear which section overrules the other.

Quote

Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself.

I do not regard this as contradicting my position at all. The vehicle cannot launch them itself - a markerlight hit is also required. The seeker missile cannot be launched without the vehicle, either, however - if the vehicle is in reserve or destroyed, it won't happen!

[Culven]

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

The vehicle cannot launch them itself - a markerlight hit is also required. The seeker missile cannot be launched without the vehicle, either, however - if the vehicle is in reserve or destroyed, it won't happen!

What is your opinion on a shaken/stunned vehicle attempting to launch a Seeker?

[starlight]

Opinion is irrelevant, it's clearly covered in the rules...

Pg 30/31 - Tau Empire

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Originally Posted by Culven

What is your opinion on a shaken/stunned vehicle attempting to launch a Seeker?

Let me refer back to my position post:

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

My technical reading of the relevant rules leads me to the following conclusion:

Seeker missiles are fired when the vehicle carrying them takes its turn to fire. It may do so even if shaken, stunned, firing at a different target, out of LOS, or moving too far, all of which would normally prevent it from shooting at the marked target, but all of which are explicitly allowed when firing the seeker missile.

I would like to clarify that I don't really have an issue with the GaP of firing the seeker after the markerlight, I don't think it's a big deal and frankly matches the fluff better even if it's technically incorrect.

[starlight]

Please explain how it is technically incorrect...

[Nurgling Chieftain]

"...subsequently firing Tau..."

[Culven]

Originally Posted by starlight

Opinion is irrelevant, it's clearly covered in the rules...

I was asking for his opinion as it is more open-ended and allows NC to post his RaW interpretation, RaI interpretation, and GaP interpretation. I was curious as to all of his views on the subject, not just the RaW. I was also curious what NC thought about why many players (myself included) don't feel that the Vehicle needs to be declared as firing at teh target unit of the Seeker Missile. I admit, I do not have my codecies to hand, and this is most likely a hold-over from the previous codex. Though, it may just be my misinterpreting the Seeker Missile rules since I have never used them.

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

I would like to clarify that I don't really have an issue with the GaP of firing the seeker after the markerlight, I don't think it's a big deal and frankly matches the fluff better even if it's technically incorrect.

OK, I'm lost (again). How else would the Seeker be fired if not after the Markerlight (considering that the Markerlight must hit in order to place a token which could then be used to launch the Seeker Missile)?

[starlight]

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

"...subsequently firing Tau..."

Not seeing the issue here. Any Tau who has fired a Markerlight can elect to designate a Markerlight Token as firing a Seeker Missile.

Markerlight Tokens are communal, much like SoB Faith Points. They are an exception to the normal Shooting rules.

At a guess, the intent was to have the Markerlight Hit be immediately followed by a Seeker Missile, but that's not how the rules ended up being written. It will depend on how you play. Either the effects of each Markerlight Token are:

1) designated by the player when they are put down.

2) determined as each pile is resolved.

I prefer Option 1. Every time I score a Markerlight Hit, I designate the effects immediately, even if the results aren't seen until another unit fires. Seeker Missiles are fired immediately.