High Elf vs Dwarf tactics

[Wolfroar]

Hi,

I am looking for tips to field an army of High elves which are able to kill annoying dwarfs.

Is it wise to use a lot of cavalry units or infantry or a balanced mix? We had a nice dicussion about the use of eagles vs war machines in the rules forum, which Id like to continue here.

Any advice is welcome.

Greetz

[danny-d-b]

Dwarfs way of winning is to 1st shoot you down to a mannagable size before grinding out vicroys with SCR

THis means you need to maximizes speed, and protection, and high elves having the joint 2nd quickest infantry have it quite good

1st of all, magic- either go fully to town or not at all, dwarfs have access to 4 DD normal, plus 1 runesmith can either bring 3 'dispel scrolls' or a scroll and a rob 1 dice rune and most decent dwarf players will ignore most magic misslies unless there going to be removeing there rank bonaces

Therefor look for spells (if your going down this route) that either give you protection against shooting (rain lord, howler wind, anything that gives you a ward save) and anything that speeds you up. The lore of metal is also a good idea due to the fact 2/3 dammage dealing spells ignore armour

Another good idea, is take out the Dwarfs BSB ASAP- Dwarfs as said win by grounding combats out, and BSBs help them do this, you remove the BSB and there is no more re-rolls meaning there easyer to make run

lastly never engage any dwarf unit to the front with out something in the side as there highly unlikey to run unless you kill them, leave any hammers or slayers to last, or try to wipe them out through combat or shooting as there stubbon/unbreakable so unlikely to go anywhere

[amysrevenge]

The meanest High Elf weapon I have faced (I'm on the other side of the High Elves v. Dwarfs battle) is infantry with great weapons and ASF. Especially White Lions (is that the unit I mean? The one that is S4 plus great weapon?), who chewed through my Ironbreakers like they were Night Goblins.

[D'Haran]

2 kinds of Dwarf armies: gunline and not gunline. Either way there's going to be significant missile fire, both from thunderers and warmachines.

That said lets be honest, it's really those warmachines that we're worried about, thunderers, while annoying, should only have 2-3 shooting phases before you reach them with your foot troops so they probably won't do as much damage as a whole as will the warmachines.

Until your 3rd turn you must find ways of minimalizing casualites by:

1. Engage missile troops and warmachine crews in combat, even if you don't kill them every turn they're in combat is a turn they're not shooting at you. Only scouts, cav, and fliers can reach them before your main troops so you will be relying on them to accomplish this.

2. Use terrain to avoid as much fire as possible, but don't hold back to try to gain an extra turn of cover at the expense of giving them a 3rd-4th turn of shooting at your army because you didn't move far enough.

3. Give them options to shoot at. Might sound like shady advice but if they only have 1 thing to shoot at, it's gonna die. If they have several good options they'll most likely divide their missile fire between your troops which, hopefully, means they won't kill anything completely. Given enough decent targets most of your troops should reach the enemy line without being riddled with cannonballs.

4. Protection, armour saves that elves get won't do much here unless we're talking about cav, and even then you'll be under alot of missle fire from warmachines that won't be giving you an armour save. If your opponent is smart he will target out such troops. Thus ward saves become very important. Deploying PG in wide ranks (7 or more) is a decent way to screen important units, sacred incense is a must but won't do much again cannons, magic that gives ward saves (there's one in High Magic and a better one in the lore of the heavens). White Lions have a natural advantage against missle fire, and give that sweet banner that lets you move through woods to a cav unit and place some wood in a position that will let you take advantage of the cover at the end of your first movement phase. Also use the first suggestion to force him to focus on the units threatening his warmachines and missle troops to buy your main force time to reach his line.

5. Magic Heavy. If you don't go magic heavy you probably won't get anything off until the 4th round or later, I'd take a mix of the lore of metal and heavens/highmagic. I'd only take the latter with someone who either gets all the spells (archmage w/ silver wand or some1 with the seerstaff), the rest take metal. Try to make him use scrolls and dice on things like vauls unmaking or the law of gold, then follow up by using a bound item to drain his DD and then cast the sheild/commandment of iron forcing him to choose to scroll these easy to cast spells, you might be surprised at what he lets go to save himself a scroll or two for later. As my mate danny said killing his bsb is cool, also his general is a prime target for the lore of metal, so try to pick such guys off, after that kill some rank bonus.

As far as combat goes you need to break him since you probably won't be wiping any units out the hard way with T4 and Ar 3+ or better. Dwarfs are reactionary, so give them tough choices and make it so they can't cover all their bases and then exploite the openings. Don't focus so much on the death star unit his lord is in, rather take all the points you can get elsewhere and focus your RBT and lore of metal at widdling down the big block. Your goal should be half points for the unit then ignore it unless you have a chance to kill it (which almost never happens). Easiest points come from getting a unit of cav behind his line and overrunning from one warmachine to the next, he'll be forced to about face a big block unit to threaten your cav and if you do it right there'll be another unit threatening his block with a rear charge. Not a good position to be in.

As far as building an army that's your job, this should be more than sufficient help to give you an idea of how to own those short, hairy, metal covered rocks.

[Wolfroar]

Wow danny and D'haran, I'm impressed. Those are really helpfull tips you gave me there. Especially about the magic types, metal magic, never thought of that myself.

What does BSB and RBT stand for?

It seems I'm on the right track. I will spend most points in cavalry like silver helms, and balance my army with a good spearman mob of 20 in the center. Some archers/bolthrowers/ eagles for support.

Still doubting if I should go for the phoenix guys with a ward save, or the white lions. Ill probably go for the phoenix guard and add the special character to them.

It will take some practice to break a dwarf army I think, I know my brother to be a defensive player by heart. He hates to see his guys die, and waits for me to make a stupid move and then strike.

I'm usually play with unpredictable tactics. Thats why high elves seems to be a nice army because they are all-round. There are many specials to choose from, many tactics to deploy. I think dwarfs have limited tactics, but it will be a tough skull to crack.

I appreciate the input guys, thnx.

[danny-d-b]

BSB=battle standard bearer
RBT- repeater bolt thrower

no probs, I do this stuff all the time, I'd say go check out bugmansbrewery.com (the home of all things dwarfy) but its down at the moment

[Von Wibble]

Originally Posted by Wolfroar

Wow danny and D'haran, I'm impressed. Those are really helpfull tips you gave me there. Especially about the magic types, metal magic, never thought of that myself.

What does BSB and RBT stand for?

It seems I'm on the right track. I will spend most points in cavalry like silver helms, and balance my army with a good spearman mob of 20 in the center. Some archers/bolthrowers/ eagles for support.

Still doubting if I should go for the phoenix guys with a ward save, or the white lions. Ill probably go for the phoenix guard and add the special character to them.

It will take some practice to break a dwarf army I think, I know my brother to be a defensive player by heart. He hates to see his guys die, and waits for me to make a stupid move and then strike.

I'm usually play with unpredictable tactics. Thats why high elves seems to be a nice army because they are all-round. There are many specials to choose from, many tactics to deploy. I think dwarfs have limited tactics, but it will be a tough skull to crack.

I appreciate the input guys, thnx.

Phoenix guard a bad idea. Sure, they have a 4+ ward - but they cost more than pretty much all dwarf models, have similar protection, and in attack their S4 just doesn't cut it. In general, they will reach the dwarf lines, still be outnumbered (because they will take a few casualties and cost so much) and then not kill much.

White lions otoh are -1 to be hit if they use the woods wisely, and have only slightly worse protection vs S4 shooting. But once in combat, S6 and stubborn should alow them to grind with the best of them.

Whatever you do, make sure you have your units deployed wide. Ranks of 6 if not 7 are ideal. The scariest weapon the dwarfs have is the patriot grudge thrower - with S5 and reroll scatters. This thing is costly but often pays off its points in 1 shot - and if you deploy in ranks of 5 you maximise its killing potential. Same for the flame cannon.

I have found the best way to ensure you win is to not lose. By which I mean don't engage dwarfs in combats unless you are confident of victory - so never in the front without a backup charge in his flanks. If gunlines have a weakness, its that they can't easily finish off units that hide away - so don't give him any chances for VPs. If he isn't a gunline then use his M3 against him.

[Ozorik]

Quote

Whatever you do, make sure you have your units deployed wide. Ranks of 6 if not 7 are ideal

On thing to remember here is that units 7 wide are ideal targets for gyrocopters, especially expensive T3 models like elves. The best way to protect against this is to have your RBT throwers set up in a position to hit anything on the flank of your most important blocks or charge it with your own flyers.

HE infantry dont have an easy time against Dwarves simply because they are so tough, this is even the case with swordmasters. You will need to combine charges as much as possible to have a good chance of breaking through.

A lot depends on the type of Dwarf army you are facing.

[Wolfroar]

The army I am facing will look a bit like this.
In 1000 pt army my bro got:
10-15 normal dwarfs with great weps
10 Ironbreakers
10 Thunderers
15 miners
A cannon
A hero on foot
A runesmith or an engineer.

Myself will be fielding
- 12 HE spearman
- 10 archers
- 8 Silver helms
- Tiranoc chariot
- Bolt thrower
- Hero on horse
- Mage lvl 2

[Ozorik]

I don't fancy your chances.

The chariot will meet a cannon ball, your silverhelms will get shot down and your spearelves will simply bounce off his infantry (even the thunderers) while your archers will struggle to kill anything.

I would drop the mage and the chariot at the least as both are unlikely to make much of an impact. White lions are probably the best anti-dwarf infantry that HEs have so I would use the points saved to get a few of them. The silver helms are problamatic, they are expensive and fragile but they will do well against the units that you will face (aside from the ironbreakers) if they can actually survive crossing the table.

An eagle is useful but not that useful against Dwarves, it will hold up a warmachine for at least a couple of turns but aside form that it isnt spectacular. Its a decent distraction unit but dont rely on it.

[Wolfroar]

Ok what do you think of this army? 1000 pts

Core Units (1+)
Archers 10x
Spearman 15x

Special Units (0-5)
Tiranoc chariot 1x
Silver Helms 7x
Swordsman of Hoeth 15x

Rare Units (0-2)
Repeater bolt thrower 1x

Heroes (0-3)
Commander 1x

[Highlander]

I defeat dwarfs with no much trouble using Teclis + Lore of Shadows.

Since you cast irresitible force with him all time, rune as dispell scrolls are not problem.

In the first turn i cast pit of shades in the organ gun, and unseer luker on my Dragon princes, that gave carge on his cannon.

I Tried to get the another cannon with my bolt trower but i failed i get 2 on dice.

The dwarfs gives me a little damage on my troop of swordmasters in his turn with the 2 bolt trowers + the last cannon, , but in my second turn, but i gave another pit of shades on the cannon and with the unseer luker on m white lion troops i neutralize the machine guns line of my oponent carging the bolts.

After that the white lions + swordmaster killed the dwarfs troops.

The tried to get the phoenix Guard troop who was protecting teclis using the miners, but fortunally i be able to neutralize this troop using my lion chariot !

Since mosty of dwarf troops has a lower iniciative, you can use the spell to get them down, it´s works.

Try to using a similar tactics, Telcis with lore of Shadows is a big trouble for dwarfs

[Malorian]

I played a large game against high elves and what he pulled on me was an army made with tons of cav.

I just couldn't do enough damage (he also got first turn) before he hit me and when he did he easily smashed through my weaker blocks and overran into my warmachines while my hammerers got bogged down.

Originally Posted by Wolfroar

Ok what do you think of this army? 1000 pts

Core Units (1+)
Archers 10x
Spearman 15x

Special Units (0-5)
Tiranoc chariot 1x
Silver Helms 7x
Swordsman of Hoeth 15x

Rare Units (0-2)
Repeater bolt thrower 1x

Heroes (0-3)
Commander 1x

Archers won't do much against dwarfs but since you need some core (and spearmen won't do much either) you might as well take them.

Don't take chariots, they will die right away to cannons. Use the points to turn those silver helms into dragon princes.

[Tarian]

Originally Posted by Wolfroar

Ok what do you think of this army? 1000 pts

Core Units (1+)
Archers 10x
Spearman 15x

Special Units (0-5)
Tiranoc chariot 1x
Silver Helms 7x
Swordsman of Hoeth 15x

Rare Units (0-2)
Repeater bolt thrower 1x

Heroes (0-3)
Commander 1x

Honestly, the spears are worthless against dwarves. You only need 1 core choice, so there is really no reason to field them outside of personal preference or to avoid "tailoring". That said, the Chariot is going to get blasted by a cannon or a S7+ Dwarf Bolt and get destroyed. I'd recommend dropping the chariot and spears for another unit (Preferably Dragon Princes, and upgrade the Helms to DP's too, even if you have to drop a model or two). Swordmasters do best 7-wide in my experience, so 14 is what I usually field.

Shadow Warriors might be a good idea, as scouting will let them try to ambush some war machines, and if nothing else gives the dwarves something to shoot at.

Edit: Malorian's a Ninja!

[Ozorik]

Swordmasters are inferior to white lions against dwarves, both due to their lowe strength and due to their lower anti missile armour save. Yes they get 2 attacks but S6 means that white lions will do about the same damage but will be much harder to damage on the way in.

[Purecarnagge]

The easiest way for a HE to beat a dwarf is simply put dont engage in a grind them out game with them. Make them come to you which they wont' do.

Go magic heavy
RBT heavy
Fast strike unit heavy. Give yourself options to try to setup good battles.

At some point his WM will be vunerable as he will have to leave them. Basically out turtle the turtle, this is something you can do the HE are much better doing it...as they are more manueverable to allow them to position units in later turns for better combats...

I play dwarfs thats my personal experience with them.

Usually if the dwarf comes forward they will lose....as they will get out flanked/charged etc...

[Tarian]

Actually, I disagree. HE *want* to get stuck in with the Dwarves. Our elites are far more "elite" than theirs. However, their shooting is far superior to ours. Swordmasters/Lions will pretty much stomp their closest Dwarven counterparts, though their core is definitely better than ours.

In combat, HE can grind them out, in a ranged battle they get pulverized. I'd say slam into them as soon as possible, and neuter their ranged by being in combat.

[H33D]

I play Dwarves and this is how I beat the High Elves every time.

I bring 1 unit of miners (10-15)

I bring a grudge thrower with an engineer, accuracy rune, and penetrating rune

I bring a gyrocopter

I bring 2 units of quarrellers and 1 unit of longbeards for core

I bring Ironbreakers.

The rest I tend to switch up other than my characters:

Lord 1+ rerollable armour save, treats all attacks as S5 at most. 4+ward, GW.

Runesmith MRoBalance(steal 1 PD as DD) RoSpellbreaking(dispel) shield.

BSB runed for combat, not a runic standard.

A gyrocopter will make short work of even the most elite elf units, as elf units are T3 and die easily. A flame template at S3 armour piercing will waste them away.

A grudge thrower will put large gaping wholes in elite infantry, wounding on a 2 no matter what, D6 wounds if you bring a dragon.

Ironbreakers with Thane/Oath Stone so no flanks/rear have a 2+ armour save against low S elves, 5+ vs GW elves.

I actually charge forward into the elves, that way when they run away, their board edge is closer than if i wait for them to come all the way to me.

Anyway, that is how I play Dwarves so if you want to beat them I would try to account for some 'elvish' weaknesses