Tau Seeker Missile questions.

[Culven]

Originally Posted by starlight

Markerlight Tokens are communal, much like SoB Faith Points. They are an exception to the normal Shooting rules.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by starlight

At a guess, the intent was to have the Markerlight Hit be immediately followed by a Seeker Missile, but that's not how the rules ended up being written. It will depend on how you play. Either the effects of each Markerlight Token are:
1) designated by the player when they are put down.
2) determined as each pile is resolved.
I prefer Option 1. Every time I score a Markerlight Hit, I designate the effects immediately, even if the results aren't seen until another unit fires. Seeker Missiles are fired immediately.

I have never seen another Tau player define what each Markerlight token will do when placing them on the unit. My understanding, and that apparently shared by Tau players I have met is that the tokens are placed on the target unit, and the Tau player determines how many are to be used and to what effect prior to the firing of another Tau unit. This may be what you mean with your option 2, but I'm not sure if this is exactly what you mean by "as each pile is resolved" (it could be interpreted as requiring the Tau player to expend all tokens at one time). I am still unsure as to whether some feel that Seekers are and/or must be launched immediately after the tokens are placed. I will need to read through my codecies before commenting further on this bit.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

Originally Posted by Culven

OK, I'm lost (again). How else would the Seeker be fired if not after the Markerlight (considering that the Markerlight must hit in order to place a token which could then be used to launch the Seeker Missile)?

My bad, I meant immediately after (or at any time after, as I've also seen played), rather than later in the shooting phase as part of the carrying vehicle's fire as I judge RaW to be. The cases where the distinction even makes a difference are few; if the vehicle isn't firing anyway, (or even just isn't firing based on decisions related to the damage caused by the seeker missile), then it most likely doesn't make any difference at all.

Starlight, I'm not seeing the rationale for your Option 1. Explain to me why we should assume that the type of affect of a given markerlight hit has to be designated at the time it is created, rather than the time it is expended?

...Oddly, I don't think that would affect the timing of the seeker missile anyway, as it would still go off at the vehicle's turn to fire.

The primary basis of my position on the RaW timing of the seeker missile is consistency - it is fired at the same time any other markerlight is expended for any other effect. Consider a Devilfish with a seeker missile and a burst cannon firing its burst cannon at marked infantry and its seeker at a marked vehicle. The Devilfish expends a markerlight to fire the seeker at the vehicle and another to improve its BS firing at the infantry at the same time because it's literally the same rule.

[BrotherErekose]

Let's try a concrete example:

There are some orks in ruins with an attached character. Pathfinder unit 'Spoon' gets a whopping 8 MLs on the lot. FW unit 'Spork' uses a few MLs to increase BS (2 MLs), slice off the Cover Save (3 MLs), and a couple minuses for pinning 2 MLs (there's the 'Ui's Gun Drone w/carbine in there), total 7 MLs used.

The orks get creamed, with only the Character left. And one MarkerLight.

1. Can the 'spork' unit *now* call in a Seeker, even though they're done?

2. Or does it have to be another FW unit, say, 'Knife', to call in that last ML, summoning the Seeker? And thus committing unit 'Knife' to shoot at the character, even though there is another ork unit breathing down their necks?

3. How many of us GaP, would have just assumed the ML can be used, and just had the Seeker streak in, hoping for some Instant Death? While having 'Knife' shoot the mob close by?
--Until this thread, I would have without a second thought. Now, I realize there's a protocol to be followed.

Originally Posted by Culven

I was also curious what NC thought about why many players (myself included) don't feel that the Vehicle needs to be declared as firing at teh target unit of the Seeker Missile. I admit, I do not have my codecies to hand, and this is most likely a hold-over from the previous codex.

Culven, a vehicle without an ML cannot do anything about a Seeker it carries. "The mechanism is remote and responds only to MarkerLight users" - p. 31 Seeker Missiles. Really, the vehicle only functions as a missile rack. Stunned, having fired all its guns, moved at max = all irrelevant. The Seeker can still take off, at another user's bidding.

The Skyray, now ....

Course, you'll probably have read your codex, by the time I've posted this for ya.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

People keep quoting what basically amounts to fluff text. The seeker missile entry is quite specific that the rules governing its actual use are the rules in the markerlight entry.

[BrotherErekose]

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

People keep quoting what basically amounts to fluff text. The seeker missile entry is quite specific that the rules governing its actual use are the rules in the markerlight entry.

Do you mean me?

If so, I'd say that the text I cited isn't fluff, as a great deal of that long paragraph is rules related. No max distance. ... single shot weapon. ... assumed to move in a straight line.

Of course, if you weren't referring to me, then nevermind.

[starlight]

Originally Posted by Culven

Agreed.

I have never seen another Tau player define what each Markerlight token will do when placing them on the unit. My understanding, and that apparently shared by Tau players I have met is that the tokens are placed on the target unit, and the Tau player determines how many are to be used and to what effect prior to the firing of another Tau unit. This may be what you mean with your option 2, but I'm not sure if this is exactly what you mean by "as each pile is resolved" (it could be interpreted as requiring the Tau player to expend all tokens at one time). I am still unsure as to whether some feel that Seekers are and/or must be launched immediately after the tokens are placed. I will need to read through my codecies before commenting further on this bit.

Yes, what I'm calling Option 2 is the way you/your opponents are normally playing it.

Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

My bad, I meant immediately after (or at any time after, as I've also seen played), rather than later in the shooting phase as part of the carrying vehicle's fire as I judge RaW to be. The cases where the distinction even makes a difference are few; if the vehicle isn't firing anyway, (or even just isn't firing based on decisions related to the damage caused by the seeker missile), then it most likely doesn't make any difference at all.

Starlight, I'm not seeing the rationale for your Option 1. Explain to me why we should assume that the type of affect of a given markerlight hit has to be designated at the time it is created, rather than the time it is expended?

...Oddly, I don't think that would affect the timing of the seeker missile anyway, as it would still go off at the vehicle's turn to fire.

The primary basis of my position on the RaW timing of the seeker missile is consistency - it is fired at the same time any other markerlight is expended for any other effect. Consider a Devilfish with a seeker missile and a burst cannon firing its burst cannon at marked infantry and its seeker at a marked vehicle. The Devilfish expends a markerlight to fire the seeker at the vehicle and another to improve its BS firing at the infantry at the same time because it's literally the same rule.

In your example the Devilfish does *not* expend a Markerlight to fire the Seeker. The unit firing the Markerlight (unit Spoon in the following example) expends a Token to fire the Seeker.

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Let's try a concrete example:

There are some orks in ruins with an attached character. Pathfinder unit 'Spoon' gets a whopping 8 MLs on the lot. FW unit 'Spork' uses a few MLs to increase BS (2 MLs), slice off the Cover Save (3 MLs), and a couple minuses for pinning 2 MLs (there's the 'Ui's Gun Drone w/carbine in there), total 7 MLs used.

The orks get creamed, with only the Character left. And one MarkerLight.

1. Can the 'spork' unit *now* call in a Seeker, even though they're done?

2. Or does it have to be another FW unit, say, 'Knife', to call in that last ML, summoning the Seeker? And thus committing unit 'Knife' to shoot at the character, even though there is another ork unit breathing down their necks?

3. How many of us GaP, would have just assumed the ML can be used, and just had the Seeker streak in, hoping for some Instant Death? While having 'Knife' shoot the mob close by?
--Until this thread, I would have without a second thought. Now, I realize there's a protocol to be followed.



Culven, a vehicle without an ML cannot do anything about a Seeker it carries. "The mechanism is remote and responds only to MarkerLight users" - p. 31 Seeker Missiles. Really, the vehicle only functions as a missile rack. Stunned, having fired all its guns, moved at max = all irrelevant. The Seeker can still take off, at another user's bidding.

The Skyray, now ....

Course, you'll probably have read your codex, by the time I've posted this for ya.

As noted above, I would say Spoon is the one *firing* the Seeker Missile with their remaining Markerlight.


As to why I would do it this way (designate as I go), it's because when faced with multiple exclusive ways of seeing/reading a rule, pick the least powerful. I'd be perfectly willing to play the other way if my opponent was cool with it, but I wouldn't insist on it.

[Culven]

OK. I read my Tau Empire and Tau codecies. As far as I could tell, the rules are nearly the same between them with only minor changes to make the new version more interesting to read (I assume this was the point of the changes).

I have to say, I am now even more confused as to how they "should" be used and how they are typically used (and why this is GaP). It would seem that if a Vehicle with Seekers is planning to use Markerlight tokens to launch its own missiles, it will need to target the unit upon which the missiles are to be fired, with exceptions made for LOS, other weapons fired, and the vehicle being Stunned (Did I miss the exception for being Shaken?). So, if a Devilfish wanted to launch its Seekers at a Tank and fire its Burst Cannon at some Infantry, would it need to be able to split fire? This is where the rule seems a little strange. If a Firewarrior unit wanted to call in a Seeker from the Devilfish, that wouldn't be a problem, but it becomes strange with the Devilfish doing it.

Anywhoo . . . I think I can see how they are supposed to work by RaW. Once the tokens are on the target unit, the player can have any unit (which is allowed to benefit from Markerlights) use them to launch Seekers. Sort of like the unit gains a one shot Krak Missile Launcher for that turn, which magically fires itself.

Originally Posted by starlight

As to why I would do it this way (designate as I go), it's because when faced with multiple exclusive ways of seeing/reading a rule, pick the least powerful. I'd be perfectly willing to play the other way if my opponent was cool with it, but I wouldn't insist on it.

I don't see how it would be overpowered to designate as used, since that is what the rules basically say. There is nothing that requires the player to designate what each token is going to do as it is placed, only when it is used. However, if you feel the need to handicap yourself in order to not offend your opponents, that is your choice.

[Asi the Red]

Yikes! It would seem I've acquired quite a few posts to reply to...

@Culven:
You're very probably correct. In Codex: Tau the choice was made for what the markerlight hits were used for immediately. If you were going to launch Seekers then you launched them immediately after rolling your markerlight hits.
-As an aside, even though the rules for markerlight use changed significantly, the entry for the Seeker Missile entry is almost completely copied from C: Tau to C: Tau Empire, with only minor edits to accommodate for the number of seekers that can be carried and the changes to how cover is resolved. It's entirely possible that this debate's root cause is just sloppy editing at GW (oh no, that would never happen...).

@NC:

Quote

I find it rather weird that you'd quote a portion of it in response to my interpretation.

I was just trying to figure out exactly where your reading of the rules was coming from. I thought I was going to have to disagree with you, but it turns out I actually have to agree with you.

@Starlight: Your guess of the intent is almost exactly how the Markerlight rules functioned in the original C: Tau. However the markerlight rules underwent a major overhaul in the transition from C: Tau to C: TE - the seeker rules however didn't, which is where some of the confusion comes from I think.


OK, so it turns out that I have to agree with NC - the Seeker is fired when the vehicle it's on takes it's turn in the shooting phase. I'm going to throw out an example that I believe illustrates this and follows all the rules laid out in the markerlight and seeker missile sections. To keep things simple I'll use the basics of the example I used before. There's a squad of Pathfinders, their Devilfish with two seekers, a Fire Warrior team, their Devilfish with two seekers, and a squad of (badly outnumbered) marines with an attached captain.

1. The pathfinder squad marks the squad of marines with attached captain, scoring 8 hits with their markerlights.
2. The FW squad shoots at them, electing to spend two marks to increase their BS, two to allow a vehicle to fire Seekers, and one to ignore Night Fight before they roll to hit. The FW's go through their shooting (to hit, to wound, armor saves and casualty removal, etc) - but the seekers aren't fired until the vehicle they're on goes.

So after resolving the FW's shooting there're three marines and the captain left. The ideal outcome of killing the whole squad and ID'ing the captain with the Seekers hasn't worked out.

3. Now it's the Devilfish's turn to shoot. Before rolling to hit it elects to spend two marks to raise it's BS to 5. Now it does all of it's shooting, the burst cannon, the two gun drones, and the Seekers that the fire warrior team called in. End result: two marines dead, one marine and the captain still alive.

4. Finally the other Devilfish goes. Desperately needing these two guys to die (they're worth 2 KP after all) the Devilfish spends the last mark to allow it to fire one of it's own Seekers, along with the rest of it's weapons; three burst cannon shots, two drone shots, and a Seeker Missile later and the squad and captain are finally dead.


In GaP, this example would have looked quite different. The PF's would have marked. Then the FW's would have shot and spent marks for BS and Night Fight. Then the Devilfish would both have fired their burst cannons and drones to strip off the last of the marines - and once all the captain's protection was gone the remaining marks would have been spent to shoot Seekers at the captain until he dies.


My point still stands though - marks can't be spent whenever you want to (immediately after marking/at end of shooting phase, etc), a unit has to spend them when shooting at the marked target. If that unit is an infantry unit calling for seekers then the marks are spent but the seekers are launched when the vehicle they're on takes it's turn in the shooting phase. If that unit is a vehicle then it can self launch or call seekers from another vehicle - either way that vehicle has to shoot the marked target (and can shoot at other targets if it has a Target Lock). If it was calling seekers from another vehicle then that vehicle doesn't have to shoot the marked target with the rest of it's weapons, only it's Seekers have to go at the marked target.

I hope my example isn't too confusing, and that folks get where I'm going with it. I'd try to simplify it, but I'm not sure I've got the brainpower left for that.
Will check back in tomorrow, see what this stirs up...

edit: Culven's last post went up while I was writing this... really want to try replying to it, but my brain's ready to go to sleep. Just don't want you to think I'm ignoring it.

[Rodzaju]

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

In GaP, this example would have looked quite different. The PF's would have marked. Then the FW's would have shot and spent marks for BS and Night Fight. Then the Devilfish would both have fired their burst cannons and drones to strip off the last of the marines - and once all the captain's protection was gone the remaining marks would have been spent to shoot Seekers at the captain until he dies.

And I think that this is the relevant point.
The captain may well die before all the seekers / marks are expended, allowing some seekers to be saved for use next turn (when the PF mark someting else).

[starlight]

Asi/Culven/etc...I see and understand what you're saying...

...and still, I disagree. The vehicle* carrying the Seekers does *not* fire them. Everything I can find clearly states that the unit firing the Markerlight is the one calling/firing the Seeker Missile. If you (ie the unit) didn't score a Markerlight hit, you *can't* call/fire a Seeker Missile. Random Fire Warriors, vehicles carrying Seekers, etc do *not* have control over Seekers. Only units scoring Markerlight hits have the ability to launch Seeker Missiles.



*Skyrays are the single exception to this, being *able* to self-designate targets for it's Seekers, but not *required*.

[Rodzaju]

I would disagree.
The Markerlight entry states:

"Counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau (and vespid units, so long as the strain leader is alive) firing at the marked unit. Every counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined.

-> To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit....

-> To allow...."

THe emphasis is mine but is to make the point. Vespid CANNOT be armed with markerlights, but they are still allowed to expend a counter to launch a missile.

[starlight]

Which I put down to poor editing in the transition between Editions. They can get the other effects (reduced Cover Saves, increased BS, etc), but it is non-nonsensical for a unit to call for a Seeker that it has no link to...but that's me...

[Culven]

Originally Posted by starlight

...and still, I disagree. The vehicle* carrying the Seekers does *not* fire them.

But, by the rules, it could. The Markerlight rules permit "subsequentally firing Tau units" to use the Markerlights for one of the listed effects. So, a Hammerhead with Seekers could legally use Markerlight tokens, provided that they were placed by a previously firing unit, correct?

If so, then it could use one or two tokens to launch its own Seekers (in addition to increased BS and reduced Cover Save), could it not?

Originally Posted by starlight

Everything I can find clearly states that the unit firing the Markerlight is the one calling/firing the Seeker Missile.

I think that claiming that the unit placing the Markerlight tokens is the only one permitted to use them to fire Seeker missiles conflicts with the timing required by the Markerlight rules which states that a "subsequentally firing Tau unit" may use the Markerlights. The unit cannot fire subsequentally to itself.

Originally Posted by starlight

If you (ie the unit) didn't score a Markerlight hit, you *can't* call/fire a Seeker Missile. Random Fire Warriors, vehicles carrying Seekers, etc do *not* have control over Seekers. Only units scoring Markerlight hits have the ability to launch Seeker Missiles.

What leads you to this conclustion? I do not recall anything that states only the unit firing the Markerlights may use them for launching Seeker missiles. Firing Seeker Missiles is one of the multiple effects that may be applied by expending a Markerlight token. If we were to apply a blanket statement that only the firing unit can use Markerlight tokens, then they would become useless. Without either a specific or general restriction, there is nothing requiring Seekers be launched only after the shooting by the Markerlight unit. It seems to me that you may be enforcing a restriction upon yourself that doesn't exist in the rules.

Originally Posted by starlight

. . . it is non-sensical for a unit to call for a Seeker that it has no link to...but that's me...

What if you think of it as them requesting via radio that a Seeker be fired on the painted target?

[Asi the Red]

Quick reply to Starlight's comments.

The part in the seeker missile entry which states, "The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users," is a holdover from the rules in the previous codex. It is the poor editing which you make mention of - not the entirely rewritten (though slightly more complicated) markerlight sidebar.

If it makes you feel better, think of it this way: a markerlight user isn't necessarily the one firing the markerlight, it could also be the one using the tokens on the marked unit...

Throwing it out there again Starlight - the way you want it to work is exactly the way it worked... in the old Codex. New Codex, new rules.

[starlight]

Originally Posted by Culven

What if you think of it as them requesting via radio that a Seeker be fired on the painted target?

You mean radios that have to be purchased (any time they are even mentioned in 40K)...and aren't an option?

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

Quick reply to Starlight's comments.

<snip>

Throwing it out there again Starlight - the way you want it to work is exactly the way it worked... in the old Codex. New Codex, new rules.

Given GW's track record with editing, I'll just agree that it's poorly worded... Who knows what they intended...we only know what we have...

[Meriwether]

What a messy little pickle. I suggest that everyone melt down their tau to avoid this whole thing. It would be for the greater good.

Meri (who hates all things Tau)

[Culven]

Originally Posted by Meriwether

What a messy little pickle. I suggest that everyone melt down their tau to avoid this whole thing. It would be for the greater good.

I'm just going to continue not using Seeker Missiles in order to avoid any provlems with them. My Railguns do well enough at destroying Vehicles that I have no need for the Seekers.

[starlight]

As a Broadside fan, I was just wondering if loading up my Piranhas with Seekers would give me the equivalent of a Skyray without losing the HS Slot... Oh well... :shrug:

[Purge the Heretic]

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Let's try a concrete example:

There are some orks in ruins with an attached character. Pathfinder unit 'Spoon' gets a whopping 8 MLs on the lot. FW unit 'Spork' uses a few MLs to increase BS (2 MLs), slice off the Cover Save (3 MLs), and a couple minuses for pinning 2 MLs (there's the 'Ui's Gun Drone w/carbine in there), total 7 MLs used.

The orks get creamed, with only the Character left. And one MarkerLight.

1. Can the 'spork' unit *now* call in a Seeker, even though they're done?

2. Or does it have to be another FW unit, say, 'Knife', to call in that last ML, summoning the Seeker? And thus committing unit 'Knife' to shoot at the character, even though there is another ork unit breathing down their necks?

3. How many of us GaP, would have just assumed the ML can be used, and just had the Seeker streak in, hoping for some Instant Death? While having 'Knife' shoot the mob close by?
--Until this thread, I would have without a second thought. Now, I realize there's a protocol to be followed.

Even if it could be used immediately, wouldn't it then be a shot coming from the squad that fired the markerlights, and all shooting from a unit occurs simultaneously, which would allow that wound to be distributed to an (already dead) ork?...unless the codex specifically changes the simultaneous fire rule from the BRB?

The way its been played against me, is the markerlight unit fires, (I'd not taken cover saves against those shots before as they aren't wounds but I've been wondering if I should be doing so,) that units firing ends, following which a vehicle fires a seeker, and/or reduces cover save etc.

[BrotherErekose]

Originally Posted by Purge the Heretic

Even if it could be used immediately, wouldn't it then be a shot coming from the squad that fired the markerlights, and all shooting from a unit occurs simultaneously, which would allow that wound to be distributed to an (already dead) ork?...unless the codex specifically changes the simultaneous fire rule from the BRB?

Yes, the Seeker could be used during the shooting when the FW unit Spork shoots the whole mob.

Originally Posted by Purge the Heretic

The way its been played against me, is the markerlight unit fires, ... snip ... that units firing ends, following which a vehicle fires a seeker, and/or reduces cover save etc.

Right. Or it could happen where unit Spork shoots. Character survives, but you're not done shooting at him. And according to where the thread, posts and interpretations have been going, a vehicle, being a 'subsequently firing unit' can then expend the last MarkerLight and send a Seeker into the last ork.

Originally Posted by Purge the Heretic

(I'd not taken cover saves against those shots before as they aren't wounds but I've been wondering if I should be doing so,)

Huh? Err, I think you're asking about taking Cover Saves against ML hits. You don't take Cover Saves, as you've stated, because they aren't wounds.

There's nothing to be done to prevent getting lit up with a MarkerLight.