Machine Spirit + Ram?

SabrX · 31-10-2009, 06:14

Strange question arose today, but my opponent insists on it...

Can the new updated Machine Spirit allow one weapon to be fired even if the Land Raider/Crusader/Redeemer ram during movement?

Shield of Freedom · 31-10-2009, 07:45

Is there a rule preventing you from firing a weapon after ramming? I'm confused. What's changed about the Machine Spirit that would make you think this?

VorpalDoom · 31-10-2009, 10:35

There's only one thing that prevents you from using a weapon... if it's been destroyed.

Killmaimburn · 31-10-2009, 11:10

So its which of these takes over "moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase," p69 rulebook
"Can fire one more than normally permitted,[..](I guess these are in the context of examples rather than explicit permissions?) cruising speed[..]stunned[..]can fire a single weapon"p81 smurfs machine spirit.

If you look around there are a bunch of thread about how if you can fire none, 0+1=1. (reinforced by this editions example that if you move 12 you may still shoot 1, which at one stage was hotly argued)
I still ponder total forbiddenness, I don't believe forbidden=0 (allowing units to be added) But that may be trolly,I probably need someone to take me back to school

Lungboy · 31-10-2009, 13:52

Originally Posted by Shield of Freedom

Is there a rule preventing you from firing a weapon after ramming?

Yes, there is. Page 69: "This means it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase...". C: SM lists 3 times that the Raider would not normally be able to shoot, and yet its PotMS lets it, and i'd argue that the list is not exhaustive but giving examples, and therefore i'd say it can fire after ramming. Or popping smoke. Or whatever else, as long as the gun hasn't been destroyed.

jy2 · 03-11-2009, 03:02

Hi, I was the guy who you played against. Let's examine a few of the rules:

p. 61 - Crew Shaken
"The vehicle may not shoot until the end of its next player turn."

p. 58 - Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry
"Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire."

p. 62 - Smoke Launchers
"The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers."

p. 69 - Ramming
"...it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken."

Basically, they all say that a vehicle may not fire. Period. I don't see how not being able to shoot when ramming is different from not being able to shoot while shaken or moving at cruising speed or popping smoke.

Daemonhunter/Space Marine PotMS always let them fire at least 1 gun as long as they still have weapons (or, rather, 1 more weapon than they are normally permitted to fire). The explicit examples they state in their description is regarding shaken or cruising speed but is not exclusive to just these 2.

Moral of the story - DH/SM PotMS rocks hardcore!

Maiku · 03-11-2009, 03:34

I agree, the PotMS would allow them to shoot a minimum of one gun after ramming...or doing anything else for that matter.

Lothlanathorian · 03-11-2009, 03:37

0+1=1. They can fire zero weapons. One more weapon than normal is now 1. And PotMS specifically says you may fire while shaken or stunned.

Krusty · 03-11-2009, 04:20

ya, ive always seen it played as 0+1=1

Avarice711 · 03-11-2009, 04:32

I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me

Paraelix · 03-11-2009, 04:54

Originally Posted by Avarice711

I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me

Likewise...

Lothlanathorian · 03-11-2009, 06:34

Originally Posted by Avarice711

I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me

I don't disagree. But, as a counter argument, the PotMS is using the vehicles super awesome detecto equipment to find and shoot the enemies, so smoke may not actually hinder its ability to see what it is shooting at.

BrotherErekose · 03-11-2009, 06:38

Everyone in my Los Angeles scene has smoke neutering the PotMS, fer like 5 years, dude (4e, last Codex:SM & currently 5e and new 'dex).

jy2 · 03-11-2009, 06:55

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Everyone in my Los Angeles scene has smoke neutering the PotMS, fer like 5 years, dude (4e, last Codex:SM & currently 5e and new 'dex).

Well, then, you need to update yourself. You guys are playing with 4th edition PotMS rules. 5th ed. PotMS (which only the new marines, space wolves and daemonhunters have) removed that restriction when it came out. It doesn't really matter what the BRB says because codex > BRB. Thus, our PotMS works (as long as we still have guns) even when all the BRB rules say it doesn't just because our codex says so (or FAQ in the case of DH).

Silentbob10 · 03-11-2009, 12:07

Yep ure quite welcome to fire away which i found funny with my cruisader ramming a vindicator then multi meltaing its sry hull

Paraelix · 03-11-2009, 22:29

Originally Posted by Lothlanathorian

I don't disagree. But, as a counter argument, the PotMS is using the vehicles super awesome detecto equipment to find and shoot the enemies, so smoke may not actually hinder its ability to see what it is shooting at.

I always took it to be that you didn't shoot so as to not give away your position within the smoke cloud. Given you deployed it to hide in in the first place.

CrownAxe · 03-11-2009, 23:48

Originally Posted by Paraelix

I always took it to be that you didn't shoot so as to not give away your position within the smoke cloud. Given you deployed it to hide in in the first place.

it's pretty obvious your in the smoke cloud which probably isn't so big as to create enpugh space for you not to be in, and it's not like the smoke deflects bullets

its more that you can't aim for weak points IMO

Axeman1n · 04-11-2009, 03:44

Lumbering let's you fire too. So long as you were moving at crusing speed or did not move. Does that mean you can fire it when you pop smoke or are shaken or stunned?

jy2 · 04-11-2009, 04:22

Originally Posted by Axeman1n

Lumbering let's you fire too. So long as you were moving at crusing speed or did not move. Does that mean you can fire it when you pop smoke or are shaken or stunned?

The Lumbering Behemoth rule only makes the allowance for firing an additional weapon if the tank is stationary or moving at combat speed. You would not get to use it otherwise (so no, you can't shoot if you pop smoke or are shaken/stunned).

Axeman1n · 04-11-2009, 04:33

you can pop smoke and be stationary. This power seems the be very similar to the PotMS. The only thing it says it only works if the tank was stationary, or moved at combat speed, otherwise it is worded the same as PotMS.

31-10-2009, 06:14	#1
SabrX Chapter Master Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625 iTrader: (0)	Machine Spirit + Ram? Strange question arose today, but my opponent insists on it... Can the new updated Machine Spirit allow one weapon to be fired even if the Land Raider/Crusader/Redeemer ram during movement? __________________ Originally Posted by Doctor Thunder Because debate is a tool by which we discover and refine truth. By disagreeing with one another and stating the reasons why, it becomes easier to see where the correct answer lies. Without the back-and-forth, much of the benefit from this thread would be lost. My Project Log featuring: Tau, Sisters of Battle, and Deathwing Links to my Battle Report

31-10-2009, 07:45	#2
Shield of Freedom Commander Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Shreveport, Louisiana Posts: 745 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Is there a rule preventing you from firing a weapon after ramming? I'm confused. What's changed about the Machine Spirit that would make you think this?

31-10-2009, 10:35	#3
VorpalDoom Marine Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 24 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? There's only one thing that prevents you from using a weapon... if it's been destroyed.

31-10-2009, 11:10	#4
Killmaimburn Chapter Master Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Nottingham:-Further down the spiral Posts: 3,167 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? So its which of these takes over "moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase," p69 rulebook "Can fire one more than normally permitted,[..](I guess these are in the context of examples rather than explicit permissions?) cruising speed[..]stunned[..]can fire a single weapon"p81 smurfs machine spirit. If you look around there are a bunch of thread about how if you can fire none, 0+1=1. (reinforced by this editions example that if you move 12 you may still shoot 1, which at one stage was hotly argued) I still ponder total forbiddenness, I don't believe forbidden=0 (allowing units to be added) But that may be trolly,I probably need someone to take me back to school __________________ "When the facts change,I change my mind.What do you do, sir?"John M. Keynes The Warseer unofficial 4th ed BGB FAQ /Age of Strife.com 70 Games into 5th ed, still loving it (10/08/09)

31-10-2009, 13:52	#5
Lungboy Commander Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 662 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Shield of Freedom Is there a rule preventing you from firing a weapon after ramming? Yes, there is. Page 69: "This means it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase...". C: SM lists 3 times that the Raider would not normally be able to shoot, and yet its PotMS lets it, and i'd argue that the list is not exhaustive but giving examples, and therefore i'd say it can fire after ramming. Or popping smoke. Or whatever else, as long as the gun hasn't been destroyed.

03-11-2009, 03:02	#6
jy2 Marine Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 16 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Hi, I was the guy who you played against. Let's examine a few of the rules: p. 61 - Crew Shaken "The vehicle may not shoot until the end of its next player turn." p. 58 - Moving and Shooting Vehicle Weaponry "Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire." p. 62 - Smoke Launchers "The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers." p. 69 - Ramming "...it may not shoot in that turn's Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken." Basically, they all say that a vehicle may not fire. Period. I don't see how not being able to shoot when ramming is different from not being able to shoot while shaken or moving at cruising speed or popping smoke. Daemonhunter/Space Marine PotMS always let them fire at least 1 gun as long as they still have weapons (or, rather, 1 more weapon than they are normally permitted to fire). The explicit examples they state in their description is regarding shaken or cruising speed but is not exclusive to just these 2. Moral of the story - DH/SM PotMS rocks hardcore!

03-11-2009, 03:34	#7
Maiku Chaplain Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 154 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? I agree, the PotMS would allow them to shoot a minimum of one gun after ramming...or doing anything else for that matter. __________________ Originally Posted by Eldartank "That clump of lego pieces counts as my Bloodthirster." Originally Posted by Skyriss It doesn't matter what you kill, so long as it has the Necron subtype. Originally Posted by Epic Rolling Fail "9 Lascannons at your Death Company...6 hits, 2s to kill...ZERO DEAD? WHAT THE FAIL?!" Blood Angels W/D/L 9/5/2 Tyranids W/D/L 2/0/0

03-11-2009, 03:37	#8
Lothlanathorian Chapter Master Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hagerstown, Maryland, USA Posts: 1,884 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? 0+1=1. They can fire zero weapons. One more weapon than normal is now 1. And PotMS specifically says you may fire while shaken or stunned. __________________ 'Cause the Claims Medic gives no anesthetic! 90-Days delinquent get your Repo Treatment! I'm the Masked Horror on your street corner! Make your mama mourn ya! I'm a Night Surgeon! Last edited by Lothlanathorian; 03-11-2009 at 03:45.

03-11-2009, 04:20	#9
Krusty Chaplain Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 251 iTrader: (2)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? ya, ive always seen it played as 0+1=1 __________________ Orcs and Gobs: 7000+ pts Lizardmen: 4000+ pts Vampire Counts: WIP Salamanders: 3000+ pts Tyranids: 3000+ Imperial Guard: WIP

03-11-2009, 04:32	#10
Avarice711 Veteran Sergeant Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 143 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me

03-11-2009, 04:54	#11
Paraelix Commander Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Aus Posts: 759 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Avarice711 I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me Likewise... __________________ Lizardmen 2000pts W- 6; D- 2; L- 0; Tzeentch Heavy Infantry W-2; D-1; L-3; Latest Game- WoC deathstar. 15 Chosen (6x3) with a Warshrine giving boosts and with an Exalted BSB, Banner of Rage, Magic Res, Festus, and Sigvald in its front rank.

03-11-2009, 06:34	#12
Lothlanathorian Chapter Master Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hagerstown, Maryland, USA Posts: 1,884 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Avarice711 I still believe if you smoke you shouldn't be able to Potms but thats just me I don't disagree. But, as a counter argument, the PotMS is using the vehicles super awesome detecto equipment to find and shoot the enemies, so smoke may not actually hinder its ability to see what it is shooting at. __________________ 'Cause the Claims Medic gives no anesthetic! 90-Days delinquent get your Repo Treatment! I'm the Masked Horror on your street corner! Make your mama mourn ya! I'm a Night Surgeon!

03-11-2009, 06:38	#13
BrotherErekose Chapter Master Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,294 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Everyone in my Los Angeles scene has smoke neutering the PotMS, fer like 5 years, dude (4e, last Codex:SM & currently 5e and new 'dex). __________________ -Brother Erekose

03-11-2009, 06:55	#14
jy2 Marine Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 16 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by BrotherErekose Everyone in my Los Angeles scene has smoke neutering the PotMS, fer like 5 years, dude (4e, last Codex:SM & currently 5e and new 'dex). Well, then, you need to update yourself. You guys are playing with 4th edition PotMS rules. 5th ed. PotMS (which only the new marines, space wolves and daemonhunters have) removed that restriction when it came out. It doesn't really matter what the BRB says because codex > BRB. Thus, our PotMS works (as long as we still have guns) even when all the BRB rules say it doesn't just because our codex says so (or FAQ in the case of DH).

03-11-2009, 12:07	#15
Silentbob10 Veteran Sergeant Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: england Posts: 120 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Yep ure quite welcome to fire away which i found funny with my cruisader ramming a vindicator then multi meltaing its sry hull __________________ Quote Ultramarines, I hate them... I want those smug SMurfs to sizzle in the deepest pits of hellish agony with assorted deamons taking turns doing horribly painful, humiliating and degrading things to them.

03-11-2009, 22:29	#16
Paraelix Commander Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Aus Posts: 759 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Lothlanathorian I don't disagree. But, as a counter argument, the PotMS is using the vehicles super awesome detecto equipment to find and shoot the enemies, so smoke may not actually hinder its ability to see what it is shooting at. I always took it to be that you didn't shoot so as to not give away your position within the smoke cloud. Given you deployed it to hide in in the first place. __________________ Lizardmen 2000pts W- 6; D- 2; L- 0; Tzeentch Heavy Infantry W-2; D-1; L-3; Latest Game- WoC deathstar. 15 Chosen (6x3) with a Warshrine giving boosts and with an Exalted BSB, Banner of Rage, Magic Res, Festus, and Sigvald in its front rank.

03-11-2009, 23:48	#17
CrownAxe Chapter Master Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,090 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Paraelix I always took it to be that you didn't shoot so as to not give away your position within the smoke cloud. Given you deployed it to hide in in the first place. it's pretty obvious your in the smoke cloud which probably isn't so big as to create enpugh space for you not to be in, and it's not like the smoke deflects bullets its more that you can't aim for weak points IMO __________________ 6 Warhammer and Warhammer 40K Armies 1 Army worth is actually painted

04-11-2009, 03:44	#18
Axeman1n Chaplain Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lawndale, CA Posts: 187 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Lumbering let's you fire too. So long as you were moving at crusing speed or did not move. Does that mean you can fire it when you pop smoke or are shaken or stunned?

04-11-2009, 04:22	#19
jy2 Marine Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 16 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? Originally Posted by Axeman1n Lumbering let's you fire too. So long as you were moving at crusing speed or did not move. Does that mean you can fire it when you pop smoke or are shaken or stunned? The Lumbering Behemoth rule only makes the allowance for firing an additional weapon if the tank is stationary or moving at combat speed. You would not get to use it otherwise (so no, you can't shoot if you pop smoke or are shaken/stunned).

04-11-2009, 04:33	#20
Axeman1n Chaplain Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lawndale, CA Posts: 187 iTrader: (0)	Re: Machine Spirit + Ram? you can pop smoke and be stationary. This power seems the be very similar to the PotMS. The only thing it says it only works if the tank was stationary, or moved at combat speed, otherwise it is worded the same as PotMS. Last edited by Axeman1n; 04-11-2009 at 04:38.

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