8th Edition and new starter set.

[Shadowsinner]

I would think 8th ed would be a good way to set up an actually balanced composition system for official events. Since grand tournaments need to be updated of comp rules anyway why not add it in with the new edition. Are there any rumors pertaining to this?


-also at my game store half of the players had an ogre army and a few had TK... this was back in 6th ed a few years ago... so it's not that there arent fans and a market for the armies... its that the rules leave them about unplayable and uncompetitive without using cheesy standards

[Urgat]

I'm going to toss my rock in the water and say that I hope they change everything; There
Harry, why didn't you just change the date? I was reading your post, read 2010 for the AB, then at the end you correct it to 2011 >:-( This is very cruel it is
Well, still I'm happy, good news, and it seems GW aknowledges that greenskins could use a better book, I suppose.

[Shimmergloom]

That would just be like GW to bring out 8th edition in summer 2010, but then not put out a single new army book for the system until Q1 2011.

[themandudeperson]

I may have missed it reading through the thread, but one change I'd love to see is that an opponent's normal unit standards should not be worth an additional 100 VP if captured. Some armies, such as O&G, Skaven, Empire and others, are just too utterly dependent on high static combat resolution to go without them. It would be different if they gave massive bonuses to the units, but normal standards only give a +1 CR. Smaller armies are more able to do without them, as they depend more on their killing power to win fights which provides them with an unfair advantage when calculating victory points.
Also, standards were a dime a dozen in medieval/ancient combat. How else would a general distinguish combatants from 500 m or farther with the naked eye alone? Unless it were one of incredible importance, capturing a standard wouldn't have meant anything to either side.

[Chiron]

Originally Posted by themandudeperson

Also, standards were a dime a dozen in medieval/ancient combat. How else would a general distinguish combatants from 500 m or farther with the naked eye alone? Unless it were one of incredible importance, capturing a standard wouldn't have meant anything to either side.

A standard was the focal point of the unit, the thing that symbolised the unit/army/leader and its/his reputation, losing it was one of the worst things that possibly could happen, right from time of the Roman Legions to the battle of Waterloo.

With Brettonians they have no problems with peasants losing standards, these arent professional units and dont matter a damn. In the rest of the armies the units are at the very least semi-professional so it does matter (yes even for clan rats and night gobbos - in this case they can bee seen as symbols of the clan/tribe/boss/etc)

[warhawk95]

@themndudeperson

one change that could be done is make it so that core standards are worth +25 VP special +50 and rare + 100 or something to that effect. this would represent that getting a standard are still of some importance, but that for the common troop in the army they are not nearly worth as much to the opposing army as the rare troops.

[RipFlag]

I would like to see warhammer fantasy move away from sheer victory points to more dynamic factors, like different mission types and deployment forms like the last Ard Boys tournament, or 5th ed 40k.

I am ok with victory points being secondary only to counterbalance ties, thus standards can stay at 100pts. Cause really i hope 8th add a bit more to the mix pitched battles EVERY time, I mean even 6th had some variation.

[Urgat]

Originally Posted by Shimmergloom

That would just be like GW to bring out 8th edition in summer 2010, but then not put out a single new army book for the system until Q1 2011.

It could also be that armies like bretonians or ogres make a direct jump from 6th to 8th. That would not be the first time, by far.

Originally Posted by Chiron

A standard was the focal point of the unit, the thing that symbolised the unit/army/leader and its/his reputation,
-Bzzzzzzkrr!!!!-
armies the units are at the very least semi-professional so it does matter (yes even for clan rats and night gobbos - in this case they can bee seen as symbols of the clan/tribe/boss/etc)

Regardless, that a goblin banner gives 100pts like a chaos chosen banner does is ludicrous. There's a reason why my chaos pal always takes banners, and I never do.

Originally Posted by warhawk95

@themndudeperson

one change that could be done is make it so that core standards are worth +25 VP special +50 and rare + 100 or something to that effect. this would represent that getting a standard are still of some importance, but that for the common troop in the army they are not nearly worth as much to the opposing army as the rare troops.

Same as above, a goblin banner shouldn't be worth the same as a chaos warrior banner (both are core).
It should be worth something like twice its cost (upgrade cost) and that's it. No special funky rule that doesn't work or make things complicated. For starters, so many points for abnners is stupid. How many banners can you get in an elite army like demons? How many banners can you get in a crappy army like gobs or skavens? They're weaker (banner upgrade or not) and yet they carry around more free VP? Talk about logical.

Originally Posted by RipFlag

I would like to see warhammer fantasy move away from sheer victory points to more dynamic factors, like different mission types and deployment forms like the last Ard Boys tournament, or 5th ed 40k.

I am ok with victory points being secondary only to counterbalance ties, thus standards can stay at 100pts. Cause really i hope 8th add a bit more to the mix pitched battles EVERY time, I mean even 6th had some variation.

It's a usual idea, very good, but some armies like dwarfs don't work well with missions, they'd need special rules to compensate for their movement (maybe it should be time to do away with M3 for dwarfs anyway, They should be M4 but M7 max when marching. So just a "bit" slower than others. Fluff doesn't make them slow as snails, afaik?).

[Green Feevah!]

This problem is solved by removing victory points. They did it in the latest version of 40k. And added missions, which are being heavily hinted at... just saying'.

[InsideReticle]

I'm sure they could have a special 'place one of the objectives on your half of the table after rolling for sides but before deploying units' like the wood elves special rule.

M7 really isn't that much better than M6 considering they can march all the time. That's six extra inches each game, not exactly army changing.

[Urgat]

Depends from the point of view. M7 is 6" less each game compared to another army (that's one complete dwarf movement phase btw...). Which is better than 12" less (M6), which is more than one complete movement phase from your average Joe (humans both normal and chaos, greenskins, even elves and skavens). It's a lot.

[Tarax]

Missions will not work in Fantasy. Like someone said, the battles is the mission as it represents the defense of a town or a breakthrough. The mission is to cause as much damage.

Also, in real world battles, you could take prisoners. In fantasy, every race has something against each other race. Prisoners will rarely be taken. Skaven, Orcs and Goblins are to troublesome to be taken as prisoners. Elves, Dwarfs and humans are mostly victims if fallen prisoner to Chaos, Skaven, Orcs and Goblins, so they rather not be taken as prisoners.

So, in fantasy battles are fought to the death.

Dwarfs should keep their M3. Rather give them a hill or rocky ground, like Wood Elves get their free Wood.

[Spiney Norman]

Originally Posted by warhawk95

@themndudeperson

one change that could be done is make it so that core standards are worth +25 VP special +50 and rare + 100 or something to that effect. this would represent that getting a standard are still of some importance, but that for the common troop in the army they are not nearly worth as much to the opposing army as the rare troops.

It would be easy enough if capturing a banner just gave you the points value of the banner upgrade, or maybe double the value of the upgrade cost. That way the value of a banner is directly linked to its performance ingame as banners for cheap expendable units tend to be way cheaper.

[Ramius4]

I began playing back in 92 and new editions have always come out roughly every 5 years give or take a couple months. And I don't ever expect that cycle to change. So, I'll say it now (in all humor), expect 9th edition in 2016 ;-)

GW is a business, and to thrive they need to generate new products, and therefore renewed interest in existing products. I'm not saying they wouldn't survive, but they have the desire to grow just like any other company. That's just a simple fact.

The change from 5th to 6th was a godsend, and 7th was a slight improvement. A couple army books could use some tweaks, but overall, the core rules of the game are better than they ever have been.

I for one am hoping for minor adjustments to the core rules in that same vein. Focus on clarity in the rulebook writing as much as possible to eliminate many of the questions that vagueness creates.

I'd be more than happy to see warhammer as a more scenario based game if this were true, although after reading this thread that seems more like someone took a guess than any real rumor. People just took that 'guess' to heart and ran with it.

[Malorian]

Originally Posted by decker_cky

Well then....does it mean beast herds will rank 5 wide only long enough for 8th edition to make the rank minimum 6 wide? :P

Now that would be funny!

Originally Posted by Tarax

Dwarfs should keep their M3. Rather give them a hill or rocky ground, like Wood Elves get their free Wood.

I think that's a great idea.

[Urgat]

Originally Posted by Tarax

Also, in real world battles, you could take prisoners. In fantasy, every race has something against each other race. Prisoners will rarely be taken. Skaven, Orcs and Goblins are to troublesome to be taken as prisoners. Elves, Dwarfs and humans are mostly victims if fallen prisoner to Chaos, Skaven, Orcs and Goblins, so they rather not be taken as prisoners.

Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs take prisoners, that's what they do. Greenskins from the World Edge Mountains also take prisoners to trade with Chaos Dwarfs. Surely Dwarfs would be very amused with taking HE prisoners and the other way around, just to spite them (and some wealthy ransom). Skavens have slave UNITS, I think that speaks volumes (and fluffwise, they're not just skavens, though I don't know if it's still the same in the new book). Clan Moulder takes lots of prisoners for their experiments, beastmen to sacrify them on their herdstones, and chaos warriros to their gods (well, and Slaanesh followers use their slaves for... other needs). Ogres need lunches, LM sacrify those slaves on top of their pyramids, Inca-style. Demons harvest souls I suppose? The hiffy ones are, well, humans. Neither the Empire nor the Bretonians seem to fit with the idea of taking war prisoners to question them, unless you got an inquisitor around, and that'd be small scale anyway.

As for giving free hills to Dwarfs, sure, they don't get enough incentives to go gunlines already, lets give them more and would help them a lot for scenaries too.

[Tastyfish]

Originally Posted by Spiney Norman

It would be easy enough if capturing a banner just gave you the points value of the banner upgrade, or maybe double the value of the upgrade cost. That way the value of a banner is directly linked to its performance ingame as banners for cheap expendable units tend to be way cheaper.

When did banners stop being worth 100 VP?

[Ozorik]

Quote

Missions will not work in Fantasy.

Of course they will, they just need to be well thought out. Anything is better than the current 'fight until everyones dead' objective.

Quote

As for giving free hills to Dwarfs, sure, they don't get enough incentives to go gunlines already, lets give them more and would help them a lot for scenaries too.

Indeed. There are a number of ideas for improving Dwarven mobility,a lot of them would actually work. Rewarding gunlines is not the way ahead.

Quote

It would be easy enough if capturing a banner just gave you the points value of the banner upgrade, or maybe double the value of the upgrade cost. That way the value of a banner is directly linked to its performance ingame as banners for cheap expendable units tend to be way cheaper.

What I would like to see is unit banners giving up no additional victory points but the army battle standard should give up a significant amount, it is the focal point of the army after all and it would better reflect its usefulness on the field (as well as making them a little less of a must have item).

[Spiney Norman]

Originally Posted by Green Feevah!

This problem is solved by removing victory points. They did it in the latest version of 40k. And added missions, which are being heavily hinted at... just saying'.

I would be categorically against this, don't get me wrong I'm all for the possibility of developing the missions side of Fantasy for giving us a breadth of options of how to play, but ditching the VP system and forcing us to play scenarios all the time would not be welcome. I love a good hard slogged out pitched battle and that's what I play most often. Adding more scenarios is one thing, but taking away the mechanic that the vast majority of WH players enjoy playing by is pure stupidity.

Having said that, there would presumably be nothing to stop us ignoring any enforced mission mechanic present in 8th (like we do in the current 40k edition) in favour of a good old scrap over table edges, and either using our own VP system or one based on the current edition to decide who won so whatever.

Theres a game for people who only want to play scenarios, its called LotR.

[Dai-Mongar]

Maybe instead of each banner being worth a certain amount, there could be a VP bonus to whoever captures the most banners over the course of the battle. It could even be one of the new "missions".