Tau Seeker Missile questions.

[Culven]

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Right. Or it could happen where unit Spork shoots. Character survives, but you're not done shooting at him. And according to where the thread, posts and interpretations have been going, a vehicle, being a 'subsequently firing unit' can then expend the last MarkerLight and send a Seeker into the last ork.

But I think the question is "Does the Vehicle need to fire at the character (in this example) in order to be able to use a Markerlight to launch the Seeker?" I think may be part of the problem.

[starlight]

*sigh*

The vehicle carrying the Seeker *can't* fire the Seeker...it has no control at all over it. Another unit has to call for it. Opinions vary as to *who* exactly is calling for it, but someone has to...

[BrotherErekose]

Originally Posted by starlight

*sigh*

Hold on, Starlight! Don't give up. I think I found a definitive citation to nail this!

Originally Posted by starlight

The vehicle carrying the Seeker *can't* fire the Seeker...it has no control at all over it. Another unit has to call for it. Opinions vary as to *who* exactly is calling for it, but someone has to...

Right. I agree. The vehicle is simply a Missile Rack.

I brought it up earlier, but no one looked into it, so it is time we looked at the SkyRay:
"Weapons: ... two networked markerlights and a target lock (meaning it can launch its own missiles, potentially at two different targets ...) " page 41 SkyRay listing.

By this, I would say that the paranthetical statement is implying that *other* vehicles without Networked MLs cannot fire their missiles. In more concrete argumentation:
A. The SkyRay *is* permitted to fire its own Seekers.
B. This rule is not on any of the HammerHead, d'fish or Piranha listings, like the SkyRay's.

Conclusion: They (HHs, d'fish & Ps) cannot fire Seekers, only carry them.

I think your question, Culven ...

Originally Posted by Culven

Bu tI think the question is "Does the Vehicle need to fire at the character (in this example) in order to be able to use a Markerlight to launch the Seeker?" I think may be part of the problem.

... isn't a matter of yes or no as it's asking the wrong thing. It doesn't seem to matter on firing at the ork, it seems to be a matter of having put the markerlight on the ork. Which the vehicle didn't, *couldn't* do, unless it was a SkyRay.

Did that come out sound and cogent?

[starlight]

Tis what I've been saying all along...

[Culven]

Originally Posted by starlight

*sigh*

Ditto. I obviously haven't been able to get my point across. Allow me to try again.

Originally Posted by starlight

The vehicle carrying the Seeker *can't* fire the Seeker...it has no control at all over it.

This may be an issue of semantics. The Vehicle can't fire its Seekers by itself, it needs a Markerlight token to do so. The Markerlight rules state that "subsequently firing Tau units" can expend tokens for one of the listed effects, one of which is having a Seeker missile launched upon the marked unit. A Tau Vehicle can be a subsequently firing Tau unit, correct? Therefore, it would be permitted to use the tokens, and thus it could cause a Seeker missile to be launched. There is nothing indicating that this Seeker cannot come from the same unit that is using the token, so I see no reason why the vehicle carrying the Seeker cannot fire it.

Now, the problems that I see with this are:
1. Does the vehicle need to officially target the marked unit in order to use a Markerlight token to launch a Seeker missile? If so, does the vehicle need to fire at least one of its weapons at the marked unit in order to be considered targeting it?
2. What if the Vehicle is wanting to fire upon an Infantry unit and launch a Seeker at the marked unit? Will it need to have a Target Lock so that it can target different units?
3. What if the vehicle is shaken, stunned, or has no weapons left (other than its Seekers), which would prevent it from firing, would it still be able to qualify as a "subsequently firing unit" so that it can use the tokens to launch its own Seekers?

Originally Posted by starlight

Another unit has to call for it. Opinions vary as to *who* exactly is calling for it, but someone has to...

Why does it need to be "another unit" (that is to say a unit other than the vehicle carrying the Seekers)? Is there some reason mentioned in the rules that would prevent the Vehicle with the Seekers from being permitted to use the tokens to launch Seekers?

So, my point is this: While the Vehicle cannot launch its own Seekers without the use of markerlight hits, is there anything that would prevent the vehicle from using markerlight hits in order to launch its own Seekers? If there is, wouldn't this make the Skyray rather pointless? What about effects that prevent the vehicle from shooting, will these prevent it from using markerlight hits (especially important since the launching of the Seekers isn't affected by the vehicle's status)?

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Right. I agree. The vehicle is simply a Missile Rack.
I brought it up earlier, but no one looked into it, so it is time we looked at the SkyRay:
"Weapons: ... two networked markerlights and a target lock (meaning it can launch its own missiles, potentially at two different targets ...) " page 41 SkyRay listing.
By this, I would say that the paranthetical statement is implying that *other* vehicles without Networked MLs cannot fire their missiles. In more concrete argumentation:
A. The SkyRay *is* permitted to fire its own Seekers.
B. This rule is not on any of the HammerHead, d'fish or Piranha listings, like the SkyRay's.
Conclusion: They (HHs, d'fish & Ps) cannot fire Seekers, only carry them.

I appreciate your logic, but I disagree with your conclusion. I believe that the Skyray rules refer back to the fact that the Skyray carries its own Networked Markerlights, which no other Tau vehicle has. So, it is unique in its ability to place up to two markerlight tokens on enemy unit and benefit from those hits by launching the Seekers in response to its expending those tokens for one of the listed benefits. I do not think this is conclusive evidence that devilfish, Hammerheads, and Piranhas with Seekers cannot cause them to be launched. I still believe that these other vehicles are permitted to make use of markerlight hits placed prior to their shooting, and can choose which effect each expended token will grant, including launching a Seeker. Since there is nothing stating that the Seeker must come from a different unit, it would seem that launching their own Seekers is indeed permitted.

[BrotherErekose]

Originally Posted by Culven

I appreciate your logic, but I disagree with your conclusion. I believe that the Skyray rules refer back to the fact that the Skyray carries its own Networked Markerlights, which no other Tau vehicle has. So, it is unique in its ability to place up to two markerlight tokens on enemy unit and benefit from those hits by launching the Seekers in response to its expending those tokens for one of the listed benefits.

Re-read your last sentence here. Your whole paragraph after "skyray" seems to be spot on with my assertion.

Funny how the same words don't mean the same thing to two people.

Originally Posted by Culven

I do not think this is conclusive evidence that devilfish, Hammerheads, and Piranhas with Seekers cannot cause them to be launched. ... Since there is nothing stating that the Seeker must come from a different unit,

...I don't think the different unit part is relevant here. <--that's a nice eyebrows

Originally Posted by Culven

it would seem that launching their own Seekers is indeed permitted.

But, dear Culven, until you find that evidence, I believe my citation stands unassailed.

[Culven]

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

Re-read your last sentence here. Your whole paragraph after "skyray" seems to be spot on with my assertion.

Maybe I have misunderstood your assertation. Aren't you claiming that only the Skyray may use Markerlight counters to allow a Vehicle (which happens to be the same Skyray) to launch Seeker missiles? If so, it is this claim that I dispute. My assertation is that any Tau vehicle may use markerlight counters to launch Seekers, the only difference with the Skyray is that it has the capability of placing its own merkerlight counters and then using them immediately due to the Networked Markerlight rules.

Originally Posted by BrotherErekose

But, dear Culven, until you find that evidence, I believe my citation stands unassailed.

The only evidence that I need can be found in the Markerlight rules on page 29. These rules allow "subsequently firing Tau" to expend markerlight counters for one of the listed benefits. One of those benefits is "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile. . .". There is no clause defining which vehicles are permitted to fire this Seeker. Without a restriction preventing the Tau vehicle from launching one of its own Seekers, it seems permitted. This is actually further demonstrated by the Skyray rules including an example of the vehicle using a counter in order to launch one of its own Seekers.

In conclusion, I disagree with your assertation that vehicles other than the Skyray may not launch their own Seekers simply because they lack their own Markerlights. The rules seem to support the idea that any vehicle can lauch its own Seekers provided that there are counters to expend in order to launch them.

[Asi the Red]

Erekose: it is indeed interesting how two people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions. I read the Skyray entry and thought, "Wow, unlike every other model with a regular markerlight, the Skyray can self-designate." To me the comment in parenthesis is merely pointing out that since it has Networked Markerlights that it can benefit from it's own marks - unlike say a unit of Pathfinders. IMO that blurb is just pointing out that since the Skyray has Networked ML's it can self designate - not that other vehicles can't expend marks that are already on the target.

Some questions for starlight/BrotherErekose:
1. Can a vehicle expend a mark on the target unit to increase it's BS when firing at the marked unit?
-IE, is a Hammerhead/Devilfish/Pirahna/Skyray a Tau unit firing at the marked unit?
2. When it is targeting a marked unit, can a vehicle expend a mark on the target unit "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit"?
-IE, is a Hammerhead/Devilfish/Pirahna/Skyray a Tau unit firing at the marked unit?
3. Can the vehicle firing the seeker missile in question 2 be the vehicle that is expending the mark?
-If not, please give a page reference that prohibits this.

[BrotherErekose]

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

Erekose: it is indeed interesting how two people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions.

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

Some questions for starlight/BrotherErekose:
1. Can a vehicle expend a mark on the target unit to increase it's BS when firing at the marked unit?-IE, is a Hammerhead/Devilfish/Pirahna/Skyray a Tau unit firing at the marked unit?

Yes. Given by the phrase Culven cited:

Originally Posted by Culven

The only evidence that I need can be found in the Markerlight rules on page 29. These rules allow "subsequently firing Tau" to expend markerlight counters for one of the listed benefits.

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

2. When it is targeting a marked unit, can a vehicle expend a mark on the target unit "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit"?
-IE, is a Hammerhead/Devilfish/Pirahna/Skyray a Tau unit firing at the marked unit?

Since it's pert near the same Q, yup.

Originally Posted by Asi the Red

3. Can the vehicle firing the seeker missile in question 2 be the vehicle that is expending the mark?
-If not, please give a page reference that prohibits this.

Yes, again.

*sigh*
I guess the SkyRay's MLs just function as Networked MLs, and not as an exclusionary example for the others ... awright, I'm stepping back. I thought I had something definitive, but it ain't so. Cheers, Asi, Culven. Starlight? Sorry, I only got a "B" in that Critical Thinking college class where the syllogism stuff was taught.

--------------------
For those interested, I posted the same basic "How do Seekers function?" over at ATT.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/vi...p?f=44&t=14694

and though very pleasant, those cats are far more concise and ... how do I say it? Deep into da TAU than a lot of what we did here.

I'm still not sure how to play Seekers though.

Screw the damn things. Lousy 10 point, one shot, waste o' points!