Corrupted Bretonnian Knights?

[Bingo the Fun Monkey]

So, hypothetically, if an entire brotherhood of Knights of the Realm swore fealty to chaos and started gaining the favors of the Gods, how would they look? Stylistically, would they start to look like chaos knights, or would they take on other aspects to represent a corruption of the Lady and other Bretonnian virtues? What would a chaos bret knight be? Whom would they slaughter? Would they go north or rampage in Bretonnia?

[Arnizipal]

It really depends on what god they worship and why they started worshipping him.

[Condottiere]

That's a good point - will they go on a berserker rampage in the name of Khorne, or will they attempt to infiltrate and subvert the state from within?

[Pacorko]

But, realistically (all right, according to the fluff) wouldn't it be easier for them to "fall" and turn into vampires?

I believe this is the closest threat for any knight in Bretonnia; even when Chaos remains a possibility, the VCs really the biggest affront/threat to their existence as evidenced by Mousillon itself: it's the undead and not the mutants that rule the city.

But then again, I am not much into Brets so....

[ryng_sting]

Depends what stage of their career they've reached. A recent convert might well look like a regular Knight but a little grubbier, spikier. A veteran apostate will probably look the same as a Chaos Knight with a tattered fleur-de-lys attached to his armour.

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

I would imagine the armor would remain Bretonnian, stylistically, unless they meandered up north and started cavorting with marauders since the current Chaos Warrior designs seem to mostly be representative of the northern barbarian cultures. However, they would likely change some of their adornments to reflect their new allegiance, and maybe have some more chaotic artifacts and weapons at their disposal. I guess what I'm picturing is a nice mix of the two - still the typical Bretonnian styles but with spiky bits, chaos icons, more sinister looking weaponry, etc.

If there's a particular deity that they follow that could be represented as well - perhaps a damsel with a mutated bird head if a follower of Tzeentch, knights with distended bellies if followers of Nurgle, etc.

[Plaguebeast]

Their armour would most likely change the longer they remain in the service of the Chaos Gods. However, their banners may act as a throwback to their heritage - Chaos symbols arranged in the Bretonnian heraldric style.

Plaguebeast

[Devil Tree]

I agree with most of the poster here. They’d probably look more like corrupted Bretonnians than northern Chaos Knights, with spiky chainmail instead of spiky plate armor and some sort of Chaotic heraldry. I’d also imagine that the crests on their helmets would start to take on monstrous forms.

[Candleshoes]

It all depends.

"Brotherhoods" of knights corrupting would be odd, since Knights of the realm are an individual who join others when their oaths of fealty are called in. It would be much more likely to see the path of corruption spread into one individual (higher ranked nobles may have some sway over their direct household knights though).

Assuming the call to chaos is heard by the Knight, he would most likely not stay set up shop in his fiefdom, but rather head north to have the eye of the gods upon him. The further he or she would delve into this direct journey (they are already masters in combat) the farther the breath of chaos would change and shape their bodies.

They would not garner flamboyant brettonian heraldry (for surely no norse, skaeling, or kurgan would take them seriously, they would always remain a mongrel southern pup) they would take on new tools and armor to fit their stage in the journey. Sure, some color or past heraldric device may be kept, but that is of a belief and oath far since broken... the gods do not honor such worthless foes, why would the new found champion?

The farther they fall, the farther into the wastes they delve, and the more honored in the eyes of the gods they become, the Knight would certainly resemble a Chaos Knight in all respects.

[hawo0313]

The way I see it a rich noble far to busied with the work of his everyday life does not have the time to complete his quest and sup from the grail of the lady opf the lake as such he has been forced too fight without the blessing of the lady but in doing so he leaves himself open to corruption and as a result has acquired the attention of a chaos god e.g. Khorne (the lord in question being a greatg warrior) or slannesh (who knows the lords longing for the grail and minipulates him through it) soon the lord notices that the blessings or aid of whatever god has come to make him a new champion are beneficial to his work in upholding chivilry and he effectively becomes a chaos parody of a grail knight and the knights of the realm who live nearby see this lord and aspire to him in all his awe and glory and bend thier virtues and thier vows to the path he follows resulting in a brettonian army based around chaos they would result in the resemblence of a chaos knight in all respects with a few added brettonian Bitz.

The coclusionin my eyes is that the true followers of the lady i.e. the grail knights are completely incorruptable to the forces of the chaos gods as (at a stretch) the lady of the lake is thier god. but those who may want to become part of the epitome of chivalry who did not use the grail to find it may look elswhere.

[Urgat]

Mmh, if they become chaos worshippers, they lose all bonds with the Lady, they turn into chaos knights. Archaon doesn't have the remotest visual link with a priest of sigmar (he was that, iirc?). As for brotherhood, well, chaos warbands seem to work on the survival of the fittest and leadership of the strongest, that's the chaos way, regardless of which of the great four you worship. If they trully follow that new god, they'll fight for their favour, and all their previous vertues (litterally) will be counterproductive there. Their armors might be twisted in a parody of bretonian armor chaos style, but beyond that, I can't see them retain anything from their former selves.

[Pacorko]

So, fluff-wise, anyone turning to Chaos that is powerful enough becomes a stereotypical Chaos knight, is that it?

I tend to lean to this rationalisation for it makes sense, as I said it's easier to find Vampiric Bretonnians who used to be knights than fully recognizable "Chaos Brets", as anyone turning to Chaos is, in effect, an apostate and renouncer of what he/she once was.

[MagosHereticus]

a more likely scenario for the corruption of bretonnian knights is a crusade (by mostly knights errant) making for chaos gate in a foolish attempt to stop the next chaos incursion by putting an end to the monsters that dwell there

however after making sweeping headway into the chaos wastes the crusade gets over stretched and lost in the hellish landscape, with supplies running low mysterious accidents begin occurring to the damsels accompanying the crusade as well as starting to sustain heavy looses due midnight attacks from the unspeakable horrors

the knights now lost, hungry and without spiritual guidance, begin to turn on each other, with paranoia and fear mounting, with various factions forming, the leader of each being whispered to by what they believe is the lady come to aid them in their time of need, goading them to war amongst themselves, driving them to acts of cruelty and barbarism against their countrymen until they are thoroughly tainted and the crusade fragments into various warbands devouted to various corrupted versions of the lady

and in the end some of the warbands make it back to brettonia to visit destruction on those whom the once sought to protect

and their you go...

[MagosHereticus]

Originally Posted by Urgat

Archaon doesn't have the remotest visual link with a priest of sigmar (he was that, iirc?).

we dont know what archaon looked like before he donned the armour of morkar, he may have kept the stylised warrior priest armour for decades or centuries before getting his "upgrade"

and the most likely reason for an aesthetic change in the armour worn by chaos renegades is because the only source of replacement armour pieces when theirs gets damaged or worn out is from the forges in the north, in 40k this is a big problem for the chaos space marines apparently, who have to basically loot new parts for their aging suits of power armour from loyal marines or otherwise fashion replacement parts themselves

[Urgat]

Fair enough, but surely that would apply to those bretonians too? By definition, chaos warrios/knights wear chaos armors anyway, so the logical conclusion is that bretonian knights turned chaos knights would don chaos armors, and this applies to Archaon too, unless he made the direct leap from heretic warrior priest to Everchosen (which he did not). Now how those armors would look like would be up to (depending on fluff) chaos dwarfs or the chaos gods themselves. Now are the chaos armors made by the chaos dwarfs custom made, or do you walk into the deamonsmith shop and say "I'll have that one please", well, who knows?

[spetswalshe]

Not all Chaos Armour is CD-made, that's a recent development - the gods give it as a gift quite often, and if your regular armour melds into your skin, that counts as Chaos Armour too. The northern tribes are also known to be pretty fine weaponsmiths too.

Also there doesn't appear to be any significant definition of Chaos Warrior; just wearing Chaos Armour isn't likely to be it, otherwise a fair few Chaos Dwarfs would make the cut. The difference between a Warrior and a Marauder is more about dedicating your life to the gods.

I think models-wise, corrupted Bretonnians should retain the visual link - using the fleur would be a direct betrayal of their former beliefs, and the Knights of Bretonnia would still prefer their own armour to that of the lesser weaklings they've killed. Bretonnian armour is different to the full plate of the Empire - more chainmail I feel. In fluff terms, of course, they'd end up looking similar to everyone else - but then what's the point in them being Bretonnian?

[Urgat]

Recent devlopment or not, I'm afraid that's how it is now. The armour melded to the skin is, indeed, chaos armour, but that's a gift bestowed upon the bearer, it's not just his old set weld there, that'd be pointless, wouldn't it?
Chaos dwarfs don't wear chaos armours, that's just in the fan made army book ( but hey, that'd make them chaos dwarf warriors, what's the problem?). Anyway, while I don't argue that just wearing a chaos armor makes you a chaos warrior (there's a fair number of exemples that go against that), at least, AFAIK (I stress that), chaos warriors all wear chaos armors. Never heard of one w/o it.
Now it's all fluff, and I certainly admit that, say, Tzeentch might find it most amusing to twist the bretonian armours into chaotic parodies, that would certainly look cool too. I'm merely pointing what the fluff says (and I'm not saying it prevents the idea of twisted armours to be possible). Originaly, though, my point was that there would be nothing left of the "knighthood" of the knights, and that's what makes them bretonian knights in the first place, if you ask me.

[spetswalshe]

Originally Posted by Urgat

Recent devlopment or not, I'm afraid that's how it is now. The armour melded to the skin is, indeed, chaos armour, but that's a gift bestowed upon the bearer, it's not just his old set weld there, that'd be pointless, wouldn't it?
Chaos dwarfs don't wear chaos armours, that's just in the fan made army book ( but hey, that'd make them chaos dwarf warriors, what's the problem?). Anyway, while I don't argue that just wearing a chaos armor makes you a chaos warrior (there's a fair number of exemples that go against that), at least, AFAIK (I stress that), chaos warriors all wear chaos armors. Never heard of one w/o it.

Tome of Corruption states that 'most suits of Chaos Armour are recieved as Gifts from an Infernal Patron'. It does mention though that the armour can be removed after a warrior's death, and worn by someone else. Also, that bought Armour is extremely expensive. There's nothing to suggest that the Chaos Dwarfs could build better armour, so it can safely be assumed that's what they would wear, too - at least those who could afford it. Not every Dwarf wears Gromril, after all.

Melding a person's armour to his skin might seem pointless - though Khorne might say it re-affirms his status as a warrior of Chaos, not just a man who fights occasionally - but then it's Chaos. I remember the Slaves to Darkness book has a Chaos gift called 'Cowardice', and there's as good a chance you might end up with an extra arm or Chaos Armour as there is you might end up with luminous ears or lose the ability to speak.

[Urgat]

Tom of Corruption is older than the latest chaos book though, and the new book states that chaos dwarfs are the one forging the armors, now.

-for the melding part, I was mostly thinking about the superior quality of chaos armors. Melding the armor to one's body is chaotic and very cool and stuff, but I don't see just that making it any better really...

[Askil the Undecided]

That's not true, the book states that most weapons and armour are made by the Chaos Dwarfs.