How to beat IG

[starlight]

Which is funny, because many lists are going Melta-heavy to combat Mech...


Maybe by the end of next year it'll truly be an *all comers* meta-game...by that I mean that no single build will dominate and any sensible list will have a chance, but *all* lists will require good leadership to do well (or at least equal to your opponent).

[fluffstalker]

As Vaktathi said its exactly the same issue the new Ork dex brought out. You cant really hope to tailor a list against them and hope to do well in a tournament against other dexes. Green tide, killa kan spam or the speed freeks/nob bikers all work in different ways and require almost an over specialization of weapons to deal with them. Most armies, worrying about transports and armour, will suddenly find their weapons either useless or overwhelmed. This is why people call it "codex creep", hopefully the nids will balance these two dexes and as more dexes come in the playing field will be leveled once more. Personally I dislike the way its going but what can you do, its the way they sell more minis and keep the game dynamic. The problem is that those who are on the back train of dex updates will find themselves more and more obsolete until they get that update, Necrons being the prime suspect here, poor robots.

On the plus side, its not as bad as Fantasy. Talking about uphill battles, jeez.

Another point is that maybe you should consider upping your points limits in games. Not to apoc levels but maybe 2k, 2.5k, even 3k occasionally. The IG will indeed get more toys, but more often than not they've already filled out their heavy support slots and now are just adding more AV12, whereas as a Marine player who at lower point levels has to make tough descisons about Raiders, Terminators, or Bikers, all of which are expensive, now you have the options to get more AT and AP weaponry on a variety of platforms. Just a thought.

[starlight]

...not one overlooked by GW either...

Apparently the *encouraged* limit for 40K *and* WFB is on it's way up...hand in hand with the reductions in points for most core or common units... Interesting...


Not that I really care with all my 3,000+pt armies...

[Volandum]

I think you'll actually find that IG, with their ability to take squadroned FA and HS and put huge amounts of points into Troops, actually scale up better.

[starlight]

Indeed. It has been said many times (originally by me) that IG wins. Period. As long as points aren't the issue, IG *WILL* win...

After all, who else can take 25,000+ points in a single FOC...?

You think 12-14 AV12 Tanks is bad...? How about 36 Chimeras...and that's just your Troops...

IG has the versatility to move Threats around as needed...

Not saying that a competent gamer can't win with another army against IG, just that the IG have a *lot* of options and most of them are pretty good.

...until the nex Codex...

[TheBog]

Eh.. IG still has no good answers to close combat. Get in their faces. GG.

I would think outflankers would eat IG alive. You can't stop it with Inquisitor/mystics. Officer of the fleet will only delay it. And deploying far enough forward from the board edge to try and defend vs outflankers only makes you TONS more vulnerable to people charging you from the front.

And I keep hearing stories about marine scouts getting a first turn charge? Is this possible if they deploy close enough?

[Volandum]

It's not GG. It's you smash a Chimera or an infantry squad, and then get covered with so much fire the ground is vitrified beneath your ashes.

Against outflankers it's possible to castle against one board edge and the middle, which leaves enough space.

They can get a first-turn charge thanks to the scouting open-topped LSS. Still not very impressive.

[TheBog]

I think that's impressive. A first turn charge means a dead vehicle. Damn near guaranteed.

[Volandum]

So what? Two ACLCs mean a dead Rhino if you get first turn, pretty reliably.

[TheBog]

And what are ACLCs?

[Lord Cook]

Originally Posted by polymphus

What's the best way to take down skimmer tanks? If I were using a skimmer heavy force (Tau), how would I counter this? Is there any non-template way of taking down infantry hordes?

Railguns will tear any Guard skimmers to pieces. The problem is that Hammerheads, while getting a dirt cheap cover save, are vulnerable to triple twin-linked lascannons. I would lean more towards battlesuits and Broadsides. With the Broadsides cover and shield drones will both be essential to stop any Vendettas from hitting you with the instant death shots too early. This is still risky though as the Broadsides are vulnerable to lascannons and need stabilisation systems to have any hope of drawing LOS to the skimmers. Missile pods in large quantities have some potential, but your problem is getting instant killed again before you can get stuck in. You'd need to hug cover at all times and probably have some drones for palming off lascannon wounds onto, and that gets expensive.

Perhaps consider an overdose of seeker missiles? Accurate, good strength, and limitless range. A unit of Pathfinders in good cover will provide the necessary markerlights, and the benefit here is that it's still useful against other armies without having to overspecialise against Guard.

In terms of infantry hordes, it's combat or templates. As you're Tau, templates it is. Really not much you can do about that, although concentrating on killing off officers will slow the infantry horde right down (now lacking movement orders), possibly allowing you to win through on objectives.

Originally Posted by ReveredChaplainDrake

What's infuriating is when the IG player makes you play a Where's Waldo of chimera-popping, such that you can never seem to nail down which one is the "command" chimera.

That is grossly unsportsmanlike. It's only an optional rule in the sense that personal hygiene is optional.

Originally Posted by starlight

Maybe by the end of next year it'll truly be an *all comers* meta-game...by that I mean that no single build will dominate and any sensible list will have a chance, but *all* lists will require good leadership to do well (or at least equal to your opponent).

Really starlight, let's not delude ourselves here.

Originally Posted by fluffstalker

Another point is that maybe you should consider upping your points limits in games.

That plays right into the Guard player's hands. Marine armies rely on their Elites and Fast Attack sections quite heavily, and are very limited in terms of how many of these units they can take. Guard can not only continue to add virtually limitless amount of points in the form of Platoons, but they can pad their Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices out by simply adding additional vehicles to their existing squadrons. Under the previous Codex, Imperial Guard were notorious for getting more and more powerful as you increased the points limit*, and the new squadron rules will only have magnified that.

*Although naturally still inferior at less than 2,000 points or so.

[Murphy's law]

Originally Posted by Volandum

I would really like to see a list, preferably 1.5K. I am happy to provide 1.5K IG take-all-comers lists for comparison.

We all know there will be a lot of meltavets in chimera's, vendetta's and manticore's in it.
So it will hardly be a surprise.

[Vaktathi]

Originally Posted by Murphy's law

We all know there will be a lot of meltavets in chimera's, vendetta's and manticore's in it.
So it will hardly be a surprise.

Why does everyone always assume meltavets? and why the manticores? they are good, but certainly not auto-take.

Mech platoons work extremely well too, and the basic LRBT is still extremely powerful.

My 1500 list

HQ CCS
2 meltas, 2x Flamer officer of the fleet, chimera w/ML & HF

Troops:

Platoons x2

PCS w/4 GL, Chimera w/ML&HF
2x IS w/AC&GL, chimera w/ML & HB

FA:
2x vendetta

HS:
2x LRBT, PC sponsons.


Vendettas are the only thing to make an appearance in that list, and I've found this to be very strong.

[Badger[Fr]]

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ut we're in agreement that SM all-comers vs IG all-comers is very much in the uphill direction for SM so that's all I need to know.

The issue is, I wouldn't call an army that doesn't stand decent chances against one of the most popular builds at the moment an all-comers list.

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Oh, and for 65 points, Marbo is a joke of a game winner. Seriously.

He may be, but no more than a lucky Colossus shot (S6 AP3 Blast that ignores LoS and Cover) or a first-turn charge that blows up a Leman Russ squadron. As far as I'm concerned, I think that 65 points for a single (BS5, but inaccurate nonetheless) Demolition charge is hardly a bargain.

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Keep in mind that I'm not saying Mech Guard is unbeatable. I have never used those words. I simply said MEQ is gimped up the ass vs them.

The predictible mechanized SM armies indeed are. Though, it only takes a few changes to significantly improve your chances against Mech IG.

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It requires a much different mindset and army build than usual.

Indeed. I still remember how the Ork utterly dominated the game when their new Codex hit the shelves, and Warseer used to be plagued by "How to beat the Ork" threads, until people eventually learnt to change their tactics and their army lists, which was Phil Kelly's goal in the first place.

[Murphy's law]

Originally Posted by Vaktathi

Why does everyone always assume meltavets? and why the manticores? they are good, but certainly not auto-take.

Mech platoons work extremely well too, and the basic LRBT is still extremely powerful.

My 1500 list

HQ CCS
2 meltas, 2x Flamer officer of the fleet, chimera w/ML & HF

Troops:

Platoons x2

PCS w/4 GL, Chimera w/ML&HF
2x IS w/AC&GL, chimera w/ML & HB

FA:
2x vendetta

HS:
2x LRBT, PC sponsons.


Vendettas are the only thing to make an appearance in that list, and I've found this to be very strong.

That's not what i meant. I asssumed those things would appear in Volandum's list. I think it's easy to make a IG allcomers list. Something which is a lot more difficult for space marines.

[Volandum]

I run a couple of melta Veteran squads and a semi-mechanised platoon (the rest rides skimmers).

[eldaran]

Originally Posted by Badger[Fr]

The predictible mechanized SM armies indeed are. Though, it only takes a few changes to significantly improve your chances against Mech IG.


Indeed. I still remember how the Ork utterly dominated the game when their new Codex hit the shelves, and Warseer used to be plagued by "How to beat the Ork" threads, until people eventually learnt to change their tactics and their army lists, which was Phil Kelly's goal in the first place.

Yeah, but the thing i think people are arguing about is that they aren't sure how to take on mech Guard in a tournament environment, when they have only the one list which has to be able to take on a variety of lists, from Green Tide to nidzilla. That's the problem, because these kinds of all-comers lists struggle (and it's the same problem for all-comers Mech Eldar, let alone marines)

Personally, my aim would be to try to isolate and destroy them. Sure, you don't have massive amounts of firepower, but you just focus on a particular section of the army.

I'm not sure how this would work, since it's purely theoretical...

[LKHERO]

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He may be, but no more than a lucky Colossus shot (S6 AP3 Blast that ignores LoS and Cover) or a first-turn charge that blows up a Leman Russ squadron. As far as I'm concerned, I think that 65 points for a single (BS5, but inaccurate nonetheless) Demolition charge is hardly a bargain.

It's not the BS5 Demolitions that's great.. it's the fact he can drop it on whatever he chooses on the turn he comes in. S8 AP2 large blast vs. Marines for 65 points.

If you happen to pop their transport on the turn Marbo comes in, that's an entire squad of Marines you just killed. ~230 points vs. 65? I'll take it.

The point you even argued against Marbo's cost effectiveness is mind boggling.

[Murphy's law]

I've never seen marbo killing a complete space marines squad with 1 demolition.
I won't argue about marbo being a killer. But most of the time units will get cover saves.
I don't think 10 marines fit under a big blast unless the marines player is pretty stupid.

[Badger[Fr]]

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I've never seen marbo killing a complete space marines squad with 1 demolition.
I won't argue about marbo being a killer. But most of the time units will get cover saves.
I don't think 10 marines fit under a big blast unless the marines player is pretty stupid.

This. A BS 5 blast can still scatter, and even if you roll a hit, I fail to see how you could fit 10 models under the template. Marbo is good, but hardly game-breaking. He's no worse than, say, a Basilisk or a Colossus, as these two vehicles can hit almost any squad on the board with a low AP 5' blast regardless of LoS. Marbo is basically a one-shot Ordnance Barrage weapon that grants a KP.